Can anyone Prove there is no God?
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#70 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No more than you should be able to dictate the behavior and actions of your grown children.
<quoted text>
Again, no. The robots should be free to determine what is in their own best interests. You can *inform* them of issues you see. But you should not *dictate* their actions.
<quoted text>
I strongly disagree. If your deity made an intelligent, self-willed human, then it is reasonable for that deity to *inform* about what things can cause pain, disease, and other issues, but certainly should not dictate actions. And, more so, since your deity is supposed to have created the *whole system*, not just the intelligent beings in it, then there is also a moral responsibility for creating a system prone to pain and suffering.
Like I said, it was just an illustration, but my child had me with her during her formative years. She had me there to discipline her when she did wrong and to show her right from wrong. God gave Adam and Eve ONE rule! JUST ONE! And they broke it in no time. Later, God gave the Israelites 10 basic rules to live by and how did they do? If you honestly believe that beings such as humans can be given NO rules and that we would still behave properly, then you have NOT been paying much attention to the real world lately! Also, you as SOOOO many others mention the pain and suffer aspect. Why? Really, why do you all do that when you know the answer. If you have read Genesis, then you know that sin is what caused all of the bad stuff to enter the game. But just as a refresher: God made the earth, the plants, the animals, and even man to be perfect. When Adam and Eve sinned, THEY caused the suffering and pain, etc., etc. Once they did so they invoked a curse upon everything, not just some things, but the entire universe--hence the second law of t-dynamics! Now when something as extensive as the entire universe is cursed, do you think the lifting of that curse would only require something small and insignificant? No, it required the most important thing that could be offered: life. All of life was lost in the fall, so only life could restore it. The requirement at first was just that of animals' lives, but that was only an image of what was really needed. What would that be, you ask? Well, if perfection was cursed, then only perfection can pay the price. That is where Jesus came into the story. Jesus had to be both God and man, why? Because His Godhood provided that "perfection" while His humanity provided the sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed Himself in ways we cannot even fathom because of His separation from God the Father. We could only understand this if we WERE God, so we have no CLUE what Jesus endured. But He did so that we can be restored to God once again. This is why we have been in the age of grace since the Pentecost: Jesus' sacrifice re-established that lost relationship between us and God. Now you may say, "Well, why aren't we and the universe back to being perfect again?" Good question. But I think you know the answer if you are familiar with the Revelation. We and the universe WILL be perfect again after God cleanses the earth of evil and then recreates it back to its original state of perfection. "But why didn't it happen right after Jesus' sacrifice?" Because God is merciful and had He done so, then you and I and billions more would never have been born and had our chance to be part of it all!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#71 Aug 20, 2013
FollowerofChrist wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, it was just an illustration, but my child had me with her during her formative years. She had me there to discipline her when she did wrong and to show her right from wrong. God gave Adam and Eve ONE rule! JUST ONE! And they broke it in no time. Later, God gave the Israelites 10 basic rules to live by and how did they do? If you honestly believe that beings such as humans can be given NO rules and that we would still behave properly, then you have NOT been paying much attention to the real world lately! Also, you as SOOOO many others mention the pain and suffer aspect. Why? Really, why do you all do that when you know the answer. If you have read Genesis, then you know that sin is what caused all of the bad stuff to enter the game. But just as a refresher: God made the earth, the plants, the animals, and even man to be perfect. When Adam and Eve sinned, THEY caused the suffering and pain, etc., etc. Once they did so they invoked a curse upon everything, not just some things, but the entire universe--hence the second law of t-dynamics! Now when something as extensive as the entire universe is cursed, do you think the lifting of that curse would only require something small and insignificant? No, it required the most important thing that could be offered: life. All of life was lost in the fall, so only life could restore it. The requirement at first was just that of animals' lives, but that was only an image of what was really needed. What would that be, you ask? Well, if perfection was cursed, then only perfection can pay the price. That is where Jesus came into the story. Jesus had to be both God and man, why? Because His Godhood provided that "perfection" while His humanity provided the sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed Himself in ways we cannot even fathom because of His separation from God the Father. We could only understand this if we WERE God, so we have no CLUE what Jesus endured. But He did so that we can be restored to God once again. This is why we have been in the age of grace since the Pentecost: Jesus' sacrifice re-established that lost relationship between us and God. Now you may say, "Well, why aren't we and the universe back to being perfect again?" Good question. But I think you know the answer if you are familiar with the Revelation. We and the universe WILL be perfect again after God cleanses the earth of evil and then recreates it back to its original state of perfection. "But why didn't it happen right after Jesus' sacrifice?" Because God is merciful and had He done so, then you and I and billions more would never have been born and had our chance to be part of it all!
All I can say is that you believe in an absolutely demented myth. I could start with their being no 'Adam and Eve' and continue right through to the basic justification you give for the immorality of your tyrant deity. You show yourself to be morally bankrupt.
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#72 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be immoral to threaten that intelligent, self-willed robot with eternal torture simply because it broke *your* rules. It would be immoral to punish that robot for thinking for itself after you gave it that very ability. It would be immoral to impose rules when negotiation and mutual self-interest would be a better technique. It would be immoral to NOT let that robot learn and feel and seek out what is best for it as oppose dto simply what you want.
In this, you show the depths of your own immorality as well as that of the deity you worship (although I believe that deity to be imaginary, it is still immoral and cruel).
See my longer prior post.

How can something imaginary be cruel or immoral? You atheists DO realize that it is illogical to argue against something that is not real, right? Kinda like arguing that Santa is mean because he didn't bring you the new toy truck you wanted for your birthday! And don't even try to twist this to make is sound like I am agreeing that God is make-believe! That is NOT my belief at all.
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#73 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it is *possible* for atheists and Christians to both be wrong: if Islam is correct, for example. Also, it is possible that there is a creator that is different than a law giver, which is different than a first cause, with all of them failing to be omniscient.
My point was based on the fact that the God of the Bible is the only logical one to believe in. Allah asks his followers to kill anyone who doesn't believe in him. Yes,(insert frustrated-at-old-misappropria ted-misunderstood-OT-events sigh here) God may have required the Israelites to kill, but that was so they could 1. carry out His justice on people who were so immoral they thought it ok to sacrifice their children and 2. to take the land promised them. This, btw, is not at all the same as Allah's requirement since God allowed the people hundreds of years to get right, so to speak, to no avail, while Allah wants anyone killed for denying him on the spot!
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#74 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree when that thing is an intelligent, self-conscious thing.
<quoted text>
Pretty much as history did, in fact, work.
<quoted text>
We are the ones that invented the rules and are gradually adjusting them as we realize just how horrific they were.
<quoted text>
And how, by any stretch of the imagination is that anything but cruel?
<quoted text>
A dictator that 'provides a way out' that consists of doing exactly what he wants is *still* a dictator.
<quoted text>
What a horrific myth you have! Not only is your deity cruel to humans, but 'he' is especially cruel to the angels! No wonder they rebelled!
No one so blind as he who WILL not see!
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#76 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly how it has been. people can make laws in their own self-interest that encourage moral behavior.
<quoted text>
So why make a hell for those who disagree with you? Eternal torture for choosing another path is horrifically immoral. It is a symptom of the worst type of dictator. The 'alternative' is not an actual alternative: it is a threat by a tyrant.
First, man did not make the objective laws he typically abides by. Only one who was above the entire universe could produce universal laws. God is that lawmaker. If there is no God, then there was no lawmaker, and there is NO way that natural selection could have made them. NS only strives to aid survival, not goodness, mercy, love, inspiration, etc.

Second, hell was not made for those who fail to merely disagree. Hell was created so there could be a place for beings who rebelled against what was/is holy and true. Satan and his minions, and unregenerate humans, cannot occupy the same eventual perfect space that will be the "new heavens and earth." Absolute good cannot co-exist with absolute evil. That would be equal to bright light co-existing with pitch darkness, or warmth co-existing with cold!
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#77 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
All I can say is that you believe in an absolutely demented myth. I could start with their being no 'Adam and Eve' and continue right through to the basic justification you give for the immorality of your tyrant deity. You show yourself to be morally bankrupt.
Ok, what are you waiting for?

You show yourself to be spiritually and eternally lost. And I feel sorry for you.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#78 Aug 20, 2013
FollowerofChrist wrote:
<quoted text>
See my longer prior post.
How can something imaginary be cruel or immoral? You atheists DO realize that it is illogical to argue against something that is not real, right? Kinda like arguing that Santa is mean because he didn't bring you the new toy truck you wanted for your birthday! And don't even try to twist this to make is sound like I am agreeing that God is make-believe! That is NOT my belief at all.
We atheists don't argue against anything - because you liars have no proof of god!

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#79 Aug 20, 2013
FollowerofChrist wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, what are you waiting for?
You show yourself to be spiritually and eternally lost. And I feel sorry for you.
You're an idiot who thinks lying to smart people is clever.

At the end of the day, you have no morals and can't prove your hallucinations.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#80 Aug 20, 2013
FollowerofChrist wrote:
<quoted text>
First, man did not make the objective laws he typically abides by. Only one who was above the entire universe could produce universal laws. God is that lawmaker. If there is no God, then there was no lawmaker, and there is NO way that natural selection could have made them. NS only strives to aid survival, not goodness, mercy, love, inspiration, etc.
Second, hell was not made for those who fail to merely disagree. Hell was created so there could be a place for beings who rebelled against what was/is holy and true. Satan and his minions, and unregenerate humans, cannot occupy the same eventual perfect space that will be the "new heavens and earth." Absolute good cannot co-exist with absolute evil. That would be equal to bright light co-existing with pitch darkness, or warmth co-existing with cold!
If your god was actually real, you would not be here defending it, because it would already be part of science.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#81 Aug 20, 2013
Decade_in_Ruin wrote:
<quoted text>
Darwin never attempted to disclaim some deity. That remark only proves you never read his works. Darwin was a priest. So thank you for showing everyone your own ignorance
Evolution did the disclaiming all by itself, and continues to do so every day
Thinking

UK

#86 Aug 20, 2013
Your analogy implies you created your god.
FollowerofChrist wrote:
<quoted text>
So, if I created, say, a thinking, self-willed robot, I shouldn't be allowed to dictate its behavior and actions? I shouldn't be able to provide it with rules designed to help keep it out of trouble and to get along with others of its kind? It's not quite the same, obviously, but the creator certainly has EVERY right to make up His own rules (and God set them up thousands of years ago, not "as He goes along").
Thinking

UK

#87 Aug 20, 2013
Are you a mental?
Decade_in_Ruin wrote:
<quoted text>
Darwin never attempted to disclaim some deity. That remark only proves you never read his works. Darwin was a priest. So thank you for showing everyone your own ignorance
Thinking

UK

#88 Aug 20, 2013
English is not your first language?
Decade_in_Ruin wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes! Finally some one made a good point without asserting there own beliefs. Thank you so much. There is hope for Christianity after all.
LCNlin

United States

#89 Aug 20, 2013
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
If your God was actually real, you would not be here defending it, because it would already be part of science.
Angry atheist who trolls internet sites denouncing God, Christians and religion. ;-)

Rational people understand that the claim "There are no absolutes" is a self-defeating statement.

Internet atheists?
Not so much.
Thinking

UK

#90 Aug 20, 2013
Does 1 = 0?
LCNlin wrote:
<quoted text>
Rational people understand that the claim "There are no absolutes" is a self-defeating statement.
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#93 Aug 20, 2013
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
You're an idiot who thinks lying to smart people is clever.
At the end of the day, you have no morals and can't prove your hallucinations.
You're an angry, bitter person. What did someone do to you to make you so hateful of God and of Christians?
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#94 Aug 20, 2013
Decade_in_Ruin wrote:
<quoted text>
There was so many things you pointed out that I can't list them all on how wrong you are.
God did not give free will. Man took it.
God loves man is BS. As the book points out god so loved the world. As Jesus so pointed out man is not the world. You are not helping to convince people to read the book when you yourself can't keep true to the story. I have heard all your chritstonian lies that the church puked up. And none of it can be supported by the book. And I will not stand and listen to anyone twist the story to peddle off there false teaching. Your cult proclaims Jesus is god the creator off all things. Yet not one of you god bothering people can use the bible to back that up or answer the question " who was Jesus praying to". Your answer is the god head yet you proclaimed there is only one god. Then you say god is obniputant. That type of reasoning is why people fall away from the bible. Keep your beliefs to your self no one cares what you blindly believe in.
You need Jesus, friend, and I hope you will find Him one day!
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#95 Aug 20, 2013
Decade_in_Ruin wrote:
<quoted text>
See comments like that is why I won't be a Christian. Everything you just said is proven wrong with one search to discover the Christian roll in war during what is known as the dark ages. But you would probably say. Those were not real Christians. Never mind that your beloved religion only exists because it was the first religion legalized. And done so not by your beloved god Jesus but by the Romans. Now tell me how wrong I am. Your religious cult has done more wrong in its history than it can ever make up for. Then you will say something like shall the child suffer for the fathers sin. And the answer is yes. If that child continues to sin as the father did. And that is what today's chritstonian teaching does.
Yes, you are wrong! And you absolutely ARE blaming Christianity for non-Christian wrongs. The inquisitions were committed by Catholicism, and those persecuted were the real Christians. So you think it would be ok to blame all people named Fred just because many people with the name Fred have done wrong? It would sure be nice if one of you hateful misotheists would use some logic!
FollowerofChrist

Fairmont, WV

#96 Aug 20, 2013
Thinking wrote:
Your analogy implies you created your god.
<quoted text>
Um, how could the robot I made be my god?

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