Constrasting views of life and death

Jul 16, 2013 Full story: The Clarion-Ledger 7

Two organizations placed full-page ads. One, The Freedom From Religion Foundation , advocated that religion should be kept out of government.

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Since: Sep 10

Earth

#1 Jul 16, 2013
Barring some gutless censorship, I posted this on that site:

Heiden is not smart enough to grasp that a secular government is NOT an atheist government. Having no religion in government is like having no bullies in a school. The only people who object ARE the bullies, those who want to live in safety don't object.

Heiden is also incapable of grasping that when you put religion in government, you create theocracy - and to create a theocracy, you must END democracy (re: Morsi and the muslim brotherhood in Egypt).

Clearly, Heiden hates freedom and democracy. He should be deemed an enemy combatant, a threat to democracy, and locked up.
EdSed

Hamilton, UK

#2 Jul 16, 2013
The article has no relevance for non-believers. It's superstitous gobbledygook like "Years ago I gave my heart to God through all that his son Jesus did more than 2,000 years ago."

John Heiden is so superstitious he seriously believes in a specific Abrahamic god. That should be condemnation enough.

Focus needs to be on the next 2000 years, not 2000 year old superstitions.
Amused

Oxford, MA

#3 Jul 16, 2013
The question every generation must answer is, "Why do theists keep trotting out Pascal's Wager like it was some profound insight?" Especially since, as I've posted before, if one is truly concerned about maximizing one's chance of achieving Paradise, if it is there to be had, or avoiding hell, if there is such a place, the wager leads inexorably to conversion to islam as your safest bet.

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#4 Jul 16, 2013
Amused wrote:
The question every generation must answer is, "Why do theists keep trotting out Pascal's Wager like it was some profound insight?" Especially since, as I've posted before, if one is truly concerned about maximizing one's chance of achieving Paradise, if it is there to be had, or avoiding hell, if there is such a place, the wager leads inexorably to conversion to islam as your safest bet.
OH but Pascal's Wager allows for circular logic. Circular logic is the foundation of most all religions.
Thinking

York, UK

#5 Jul 16, 2013
I propose a modified Pascal's Wager where, against all my expectations, there is a god - but it rewards rational non-believers over religious sycophants.

No one can disprove this.
Amused wrote:
The question every generation must answer is, "Why do theists keep trotting out Pascal's Wager like it was some profound insight?" Especially since, as I've posted before, if one is truly concerned about maximizing one's chance of achieving Paradise, if it is there to be had, or avoiding hell, if there is such a place, the wager leads inexorably to conversion to islam as your safest bet.
Amused

Clinton, MA

#6 Jul 17, 2013
Thinking wrote:
I propose a modified Pascal's Wager where, against all my expectations, there is a god - but it rewards rational non-believers over religious sycophants.
No one can disprove this.
<quoted text>
t

To the extent that the original wager calls for those who are unconvinced to simulate belief or practice some form of self-deception in order to 'believe' that which your intellect tells you is false, it either posits a deity who is not omniscient and can be deceived by mere mortals, or a deity which values insincere flattery over honesty. Neither characteristic is usually attributed to a deity by believers. The former is inconsistent with the usual definition of a supreme being, which includes omniscience as a defining characteristic. The latter is certainly a character flaw, incompatible with the idea of a 'perfect' divinity.

In any event, such prevarication or self deception seems unsutainable. If entry to heaven were limited to those holding the sincere belief that the sky is yellow, could anyone look at the blue sky and really convince themselves that they were looking at a yellow sky? You can say the words 'the sky is yellow', but can you actually convince yourself that you see a yellow sky? Eventually, you would have to admit, at least to yourself, that what you saw was blue.
Thinking

York, UK

#7 Jul 17, 2013
More likely the believers would oppress those dangerous "blue skyers".
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>t
To the extent that the original wager calls for those who are unconvinced to simulate belief or practice some form of self-deception in order to 'believe' that which your intellect tells you is false, it either posits a deity who is not omniscient and can be deceived by mere mortals, or a deity which values insincere flattery over honesty. Neither characteristic is usually attributed to a deity by believers. The former is inconsistent with the usual definition of a supreme being, which includes omniscience as a defining characteristic. The latter is certainly a character flaw, incompatible with the idea of a 'perfect' divinity.
In any event, such prevarication or self deception seems unsutainable. If entry to heaven were limited to those holding the sincere belief that the sky is yellow, could anyone look at the blue sky and really convince themselves that they were looking at a yellow sky? You can say the words 'the sky is yellow', but can you actually convince yourself that you see a yellow sky? Eventually, you would have to admit, at least to yourself, that what you saw was blue.

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