We think; therefore, God exists

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“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

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#1
Apr 4, 2013
 

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In his book, There is a God, ex-atheist Anthony Flew writes:

ďEven if one subscribes to some far-fetched scenario of the origin of life, one would have take leave of oneís senses to suggest that, given certain conditions, a piece of marble could produce concepts. And, at a subatomic level, what holds for the table holds for all the other matter in the universe.Ē

The bottom line is that matter cannot give rise to mind. Itís not possible. For the very thoughts we possess would have to be triggered by neurons, and those neurons would have to be triggered in such a way that one neuron or one set of neurons would trigger another in a chain until the thought was finally manifested.

But somewhere the thought has to originate and that would take us all the way to the very first neuron that fires. That first neuron would have to hold all the information about that thought in such a way that it knew just how to start the chain reaction. The very simplest thought would require a miracle from a single neuron, and that simply isnít possible.

The existence of thoughts are ultimately the poof of the spiritual world. And if there is a spiritual world, and we know that we came to exist at our birth, then there must be a creator who is also spiritual in nature.

Therefore, because we think, God exists.

Br. Edward Gordon
http://veridican.org
Amused

North Brookfield, MA

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
In his book, There is a God, ex-atheist Anthony Flew writes:
ďEven if one subscribes to some far-fetched scenario of the origin of life, one would have take leave of oneís senses to suggest that, given certain conditions, a piece of marble could produce concepts. And, at a subatomic level, what holds for the table holds for all the other matter in the universe.Ē
The bottom line is that matter cannot give rise to mind. Itís not possible. For the very thoughts we possess would have to be triggered by neurons, and those neurons would have to be triggered in such a way that one neuron or one set of neurons would trigger another in a chain until the thought was finally manifested.
But somewhere the thought has to originate and that would take us all the way to the very first neuron that fires. That first neuron would have to hold all the information about that thought in such a way that it knew just how to start the chain reaction. The very simplest thought would require a miracle from a single neuron, and that simply isnít possible.
The existence of thoughts are ultimately the poof of the spiritual world. And if there is a spiritual world, and we know that we came to exist at our birth, then there must be a creator who is also spiritual in nature.
Therefore, because we think, God exists.
Br. Edward Gordon
http://veridican.org
So mind-shatteringly nonsensical that it can be dismissed out of hand. Thinking is a complex activity which takes place in more than a single neuron at a time. Since that foundation of your construct is wrong, it follows that the rest is pure nonsense.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#3
Apr 4, 2013
 

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Anthony who?(shrug)
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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We think, therefore the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
The bottom line is that matter cannot give rise to mind. Itís not possible.
The bottom line is that this is completely and utterly irrevocably false.

If you would consent to a scientific experiment whereby I open up your cranial cavity and subject your central nervous system to a working food blender I can pretty much guarantee a severe reduction in cognitive function.

If you come back as a ghost, then we'll know I was wrong.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
The existence of thoughts are ultimately the poof of the spiritual world.
Poof? Yes. Proof? No. So far in every single instance ever WITHOUT EXCEPTION an exceedingly materialistic brain is required for thoughts to operate.

And so far in every single instance ever WITHOUT EXCEPTION each and every one of them arose via natural biological means.

Your argument is - "We dunno how life started for sure yet therefore GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC!"

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
The bottom line is that this is completely and utterly irrevocably false.
If you would consent to a scientific experiment whereby I open up your cranial cavity and subject your central nervous system to a working food blender I can pretty much guarantee a severe reduction in cognitive function.
If you come back as a ghost, then we'll know I was wrong.
I don't know...oh, okay. Where do we meet?

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

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Apr 4, 2013
 

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Neurons fire or neurons don't. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one neuron starting the whole thing, or a million neurons starting the whole thing. It's just electochemical activity--and that doesn't give rise to consciousness. There is absolutely no mechanism for it.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

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#9
Apr 5, 2013
 

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One basic problem with Flew's analogy is that if the brain is damaged, the ability to think is impaired. A second one is that it assumes the conclusion in one of the premises, i.e., his assumption that we can't think without a spirit to guide the process proves that a spirit exists boils down to spirit's existence serving as proof that spirit exists. A third flaw is the ludicrous comparison between a marble and the brain of a sentient being. Flew's strained logic seems desperate at best, deliberately deceptive at worst (a skilled logician would put forth such an argument only in an effort to fool those who are less schooled in logic).

No QED.

Since: Jun 07

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
Neurons fire or neurons don't. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one neuron starting the whole thing, or a million neurons starting the whole thing. It's just electochemical activity--and that doesn't give rise to consciousness. There is absolutely no mechanism for it.
You've made so many assumptions in your previous statement. You don't know much about science do you?

Oh brother!

“Handsome white and black men”

Since: Jan 10

Interracial love

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#11
Apr 5, 2013
 

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Which God? Zeus, The Spaghetti Monster? Isis?
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

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#12
Apr 5, 2013
 

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You've stopped thinking, therefore god exists.
Brother Edward wrote:
In his book, There is a God, ex-atheist Anthony Flew writes:
ďEven if one subscribes to some far-fetched scenario of the origin of life, one would have take leave of oneís senses to suggest that, given certain conditions, a piece of marble could produce concepts. And, at a subatomic level, what holds for the table holds for all the other matter in the universe.Ē
The bottom line is that matter cannot give rise to mind. Itís not possible. For the very thoughts we possess would have to be triggered by neurons, and those neurons would have to be triggered in such a way that one neuron or one set of neurons would trigger another in a chain until the thought was finally manifested.
But somewhere the thought has to originate and that would take us all the way to the very first neuron that fires. That first neuron would have to hold all the information about that thought in such a way that it knew just how to start the chain reaction. The very simplest thought would require a miracle from a single neuron, and that simply isnít possible.
The existence of thoughts are ultimately the poof of the spiritual world. And if there is a spiritual world, and we know that we came to exist at our birth, then there must be a creator who is also spiritual in nature.
Therefore, because we think, God exists.
Br. Edward Gordon
http://veridican.org

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
Neurons fire or neurons don't. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one neuron starting the whole thing, or a million neurons starting the whole thing. It's just electochemical activity--and that doesn't give rise to consciousness. There is absolutely no mechanism for it.
And your proof is?

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
And your proof is?
Oh, he probably learned all about neurobiology at a PhD level while pursuing his BA (where--Bob Jones? Liberty? some unaccredited fundie college?) and while becoming a psychiatric R.N.... yeah, right!!!(snerf, cough, chuckle)
Amused

North Brookfield, MA

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#15
Apr 5, 2013
 
Brother Edward wrote:
Neurons fire or neurons don't. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one neuron starting the whole thing, or a million neurons starting the whole thing. It's just electochemical activity--and that doesn't give rise to consciousness. There is absolutely no mechanism for it.
And when EEG's go flatline, there is no consciousness. No electrical activity in the brain = no consciousness. Electrical activity in the brain is a necessary pre-condition for consciousness. Physical damage to the brain causes diminished or eliminated capacity for thought. We've already mapped out fairly well which part of the physical brain corresponds with what types of thought, memory etc. The only exception seems to be theists who produce electrical activity but no evidence of thought.

“In God we trust”

Since: Dec 12

The truth will set you free

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
We think, therefore the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.
At least it proves that atheism isn't true.

“In God we trust”

Since: Dec 12

The truth will set you free

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
You've made so many assumptions in your previous statement. You don't know much about science do you?
Oh brother!
And I'm honestly saying, my uncle is a scientist, he is a Christian, he had done it for 20years, so just because you're a theist, doesn't mean you don't know science.
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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So the rest of the time you are speaking dishonestly?
Carchar king wrote:
<quoted text>
And I'm honestly saying, my uncle is a scientist, he is a Christian, he had done it for 20years, so just because you're a theist, doesn't mean you don't know science.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

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#19
Apr 5, 2013
 
Carchar king wrote:
<quoted text>
And I'm honestly saying, my uncle is a scientist, he is a Christian, he had done it for 20years, so just because you're a theist, doesn't mean you don't know science.
This is quite true, but it is also true that working and thinking as scientists requires Christians to separate religious belief from the work along with any other preconceptions that keep them from considering the full range of hypothetical possibilities. When a need to prove what they think they already know overrides the one to find out what they don't, they are no longer working or thinking as scientists. What is your uncle's area of concentration as a scientist?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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Apr 5, 2013
 

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Brother Edward wrote:
Neurons fire or neurons don't. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one neuron starting the whole thing, or a million neurons starting the whole thing. It's just electochemical activity--and that doesn't give rise to consciousness. There is absolutely no mechanism for it.
So you mention the mechanisms then claim there is absolutely no mechanism for it. That's gotta be right up there with "You gotta be kidding me"'s claim that gravity has nothing at all whatsoever to do with mass. Electrochemical activity giving rise to consciousness has been a long-established medical fact. Without it there is no awareness, period.

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