Atheists Cannot be Moral

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#81 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>You don't understand why Jesus was crucified. And I don't follow the Holy Bible. The Veridican canon consists of one book: The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[QUOTE]You also overlook the fact that behavior has consequences both for the actor and for all the others in the environment. Behaving in moral ways increases the survival chances of both the individual and the social group. If you kill others, you create a society where it is more likely that you or one dear to you will be killed. If you steal, you increase the chance of your possessions being stolen. If you commit adultery, and that is acceptable, you'll never trust that your children are your own."



So you think morality is just consequences for actions. Fine. That's an atheist mentality, but that's not morality. Morality is knowing right from wrong, even when there is no consequence. So if you kidnap a child and murder it and don't get caught, or if the child is of no consequence to anyone, you're still in the wrong.

Hold on...I have to put on some Christian music...okay, go ahead, you were saying...

[QUOTE]Conversely, if you help others, you create an environment where you are more likely to be helped when in need. A society where helping the elderly is valued is also a society that recognizes that its members will in their time become elderly and in need of help.

By banding together in social groups where certain moral behavior is encouraged and immoral behavior is discouraged, we develop a consensus about what is moral and what is not moral. That consensus is not static. It was not that long ago that slavery was acceptable within the consensus. It was even more recently that drunken driving was seen as actual bad behavior that endangers others needlessly."

Slavery works. It would have kept working, as well. There was no evolutionary reason, no Biblical reason, no economic or political reason why it should ever have ended. It was not good for society in any way that it ended.

I think slavery is wrong. And so did many of my fellow Californians and Coloradans during the Civil War (I'm a transplant to Louisiana). So, why should it have ever ended? On what basis?

If morality is not based on authority, and only on negative evolutionary consequences, then I should be able to do anything that won't affect my genetic material being spread. Since I already have three grandsons, I could basically do anything I wanted, couldn't I?

[QUOTE]As such, morals are a useful, perhaps even necessary, thing which exists quite apart from your quaint notions of an invisible guy in the sky."

Audrey Assad just sang this verse on my iTunes (speaking of God):

[I]You live in a million places
You're fingerprints can be seen on a million faces[/I]

In two lines, she gives me every reason in the world to be good. In all your lines all I see is an atheist desperately trying to make the cold mechanism of evolution account for morality, too.

Any regrets?
Regrets?

I've had a few.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#82 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>There are morals because atheism is false. There is a God. That's why atheists still believe in "morals."
Making people smile makes me smile.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#83 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>Veridicans believe the only thing that really exists is God, and all other things are created from His substance: me, you, Jesus, everything. We also believe the human purpose is to be Christ, just like Jesus was, and that that's what he was trying to teach us. Christ, we believe, is God, conscious of Himself, from within His creation.

http://veridican.org
Good for you.

Enjoy.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#84 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>I spent ten days in Turkey once. I remember it fondly. I had a cold. I went to a pharmacist, and He didn't speak English, but I coughed and he gave me a little brown bottle and motioned as if it was only reasonable that I should use is. I paid hardly anything for it, went back to my hotel room, had no idea of the dosage requirement, drank it all, and...well, I wasn't coughing anymore, that's for sure. I think I actually took a magic carpet ride that night. I'm not sure.

Anyway, I do like Turkey.:)
Opiates rock.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#85 Mar 29, 2013
NightSerf wrote:
The foundational question is: Why is something morally right or wrong? It is because it pleases or displeases God or some other deities or because it causes other beings to be, on the one hand, happy, comfortable, and safe or, on the other, sad, uncomfortable, in pain, or even to die? Personally, I think the latter, that actions that improve the lives of our fellow creatures or the condition of the planet that we all share have value for their own sake, not for any religious reason. So I am kind to others, generous to those in need, and responsible in the way my life impacts the planet to the best of my ability, which is, admittedly, lacking at times.

Do all atheists share my ethos? I doubt it, but many do, and it demonstrates that religion is not an essential element of moral behavior.

Brother Edward has stated and restated his basic premise, but he has not supported it to my satisfaction, so I am not obligated to support my contrary view. I do so anyway because it pleases me to show that much courtesy. But courtesy has a limit, and I have no intention of visiting the site he promotes or giving a moment's thought to his religious assertions. This forum is not an appropriate place for evangelistic effort.
I went to his site.

There's a PayPal link at the bottom.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#86 Mar 29, 2013
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>So what evidence do you offer that there is a god? In other words, why should I believe you when you make that claim? If I claim that there are sock gremlins, and I read about them in the very old sock gremlin holy book, would you believe me? I doubt it. So why should I believe you?
There really ARE sock gremlins, you know.

And they only eat one of each pair of socks.

They live in the dryer.

So it is written.

So it is.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#87 Mar 29, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>I will give so simple examples.

Person 1 : Believe in god , belonging to a religion . Follow the laws and rules , believes that these rules are correctly , thinks on this rules and cannot find any errors .

Person 2 : Not sure there is a god , doesnt follow any religion . Makes its own rules , doesnt care so much god is exist or not .

Person 3 : Doesnt believe in god , doesnt follow any religion . Makes its own rules . Does what he/she likes . Says I dont need a god to find the right things .

Person 4 : Believe in god , belonging to a religion , but doesnt like the rules of religion and still wants to live like , sometimes remembers god and thinks on some of the things , then forgets again and continues to live as wish .

----------

So you believe in god or not . People lives as they wish .

Its name is faith , wouldnt be "faith" if the existence of god is so clear . Everyone have a brain and is free to their own decisions as long as doesnt harm anyone .

Everyone has a conscience , you dont need a book to know that kicking a dog is a bad thing , a religions doesnt say go out and kick a dog until to death. But! you like to drink alcohol and you say I dont think its a bad thing , having drunk and laugh so much .Scientists announced that alcohol is beneficial but it have more harm than benefit of it. My religion said 2000 years ago "Drinking alcohol is beneficial , but there is more harm than benefit of it"

Here we go slowly leave each other . These examples can be increased , sorry I have to go .
Good bye.

Since: Dec 10

Fogelsville, PA

#88 Mar 29, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
There really ARE sock gremlins, you know.
And they only eat one of each pair of socks.
They live in the dryer.
So it is written.
So it is.
This has been fortold by the prophet Al Bundy!!
Amen!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#89 Mar 29, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
I might add that atheism and humanism are not interdependent.
Right. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in deities. An atheist can be moral or immoral, just like a theist can be.

Humanism is also consistent with theism as well as atheism. I just find it a particularly conducive view of morality as an atheist.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#90 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
Morality is knowing right from wrong, even when there is no consequence.
Which fundies like yourself are incapable of, as I demonstrated.
Brother Edward wrote:
In all your lines all I see is an atheist desperately trying to make the cold mechanism of evolution account for morality, too.
I wasn't desperate. I merely demonstrated it.

Since: Aug 12

Adana, Turkey

#91 Mar 29, 2013
MrDesoto1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Your person 3 is flawed in that you falling into Myth #6:
6) "Atheists don’t have a moral code. Atheist are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell. Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this: When you use this argument, you terrify atheists. We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from. This is not very reassuring if you’re trying to argue from a position of moral superiority."
as I said , this is a choice , everyone is free . I told my own thoughts , you told yours . Thats all , thanks .

Bye bye :)

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#92 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
Veridicans believe the only thing that really exists is God, and all other things are created from His substance: me, you, Jesus, everything. We also believe the human purpose is to be Christ, just like Jesus was, and that that's what he was trying to teach us. Christ, we believe, is God, conscious of Himself, from within His creation.
http://veridican.org
AH! But if you do not believe in the old testament and/or ignore it then Your belief in Jesus is for nothing. As with out the old testament there would be no need for Jesus.

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#93 Mar 29, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions are guidance if you believe in any religions, shows the truth and wrongs and allows you to think on .
By your standards. Depends on what you read and or believe if it is the bible then the standards would be lower than others if you follow it to the letter. If it is the Quran it could be debated that its standards are even lower. As both have very low moral stories.
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
if you dont believe any religion , dont care anything , set your own rules and these rules are true for you , even if wrong for others .
I do not have a religion but I care about a lot.

If you can only try and insult then you are showing your standards and/or morals. We all set our own rules to one extent or another. As for if it is wrong for others religion has been for centuries trying to enforce its rules and beliefs on others even with it being wrong.
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
Legal systems shape people's lifes. There is a punishment that you do theft , and your religion says that theft is a bad thing and we have a punishment for them. The same thing . A warning to the people . Legal system doesnt give you a reward because you'r a good person , but religions promise you for rewards , a kind of encourages .
Just that a promise (all though it being a false promise).

So are you saying that you would not be a moral; or good person on your own if you did not believe in a god?

If so then atheist are one up on you as most are very honest and moral people.

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#94 Mar 29, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
I will give so simple examples.
Person 1 : Believe in god , belonging to a religion . Follow the laws and rules , believes that these rules are correctly , thinks on this rules and cannot find any errors .
Person 2 : Not sure there is a god , doesnt follow any religion . Makes its own rules , doesnt care so much god is exist or not .
Person 3 : Doesnt believe in god , doesnt follow any religion . Makes its own rules . Does what he/she likes . Says I dont need a god to find the right things .
Person 4 : Believe in god , belonging to a religion , but doesnt like the rules of religion and still wants to live like , sometimes remembers god and thinks on some of the things , then forgets again and continues to live as wish .
----------
So you believe in god or not . People lives as they wish .
Its name is faith , wouldnt be "faith" if the existence of god is so clear . Everyone have a brain and is free to their own decisions as long as doesnt harm anyone .
Everyone has a conscience , you dont need a book to know that kicking a dog is a bad thing , a religions doesnt say go out and kick a dog until to death. But! you like to drink alcohol and you say I dont think its a bad thing , having drunk and laugh so much .Scientists announced that alcohol is beneficial but it have more harm than benefit of it. My religion said 2000 years ago "Drinking alcohol is beneficial , but there is more harm than benefit of it"
Here we go slowly leave each other . These examples can be increased , sorry I have to go .
We do not make our own rules. We live by the laws of the lands in which we reside, we follow the laws of our communities, and the designated rules by which we interact with our business and social connections. We follow the rules of ordinary life in dealing with our friends, neighbors and families.

And in our personal lives, we may make the rules for our children, but we and our spouses collaborate on the rules to be enacted for our home and family. Almost none of us are so shallow, as to make our own rules and to think that only those would apply to us.

Believe it or not, we atheist are human beings, we are your neighbors, your friends and your family. We are your doctor, your banker, we are your postman, and your favorite checker at neighborhood grocery, we are your barmaid, and your dance instructor, we are you favorite teacher and the waitress whom you adore.

We are your community, and we can't let you know. So we are silent, when you proselytize. We accept you, as you would never accept us.
Imhotep

Saint Petersburg, FL

#95 Mar 30, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
Atheists cannot be moral, if atheism is true. If atheism is true, no one can be moral. There is no foundation for any "right" or "wrong" statement if atheism is true. If atheism is true, the kidnapping and murder of a child is as morally neutral as helping an old lady take out her garbage.
http://veridican.org
Outside of the OT NT, your boy(Jesus) does not exist. History has no know evidence. You should be aware of that. There is no excuse - actually ample evidence is available in any library and of course on the Internet.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#96 Mar 30, 2013
Seems brother edward has ceded defeat.
Amused

Lowell, MA

#97 Mar 30, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
Seems brother edward has ceded defeat.
He probably could not handle actual debate. The christian forums just shut him down and banned him. Here, he was not banned, but that means he had to go deeper than just sloganeering as people actually challenged his ideas and demanded proof. Probably a new experience for someone who only engaged theists before.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#98 Mar 30, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Regrets?
I've had a few.
But then again,
Too few to mention.

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#99 Mar 30, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
Seems brother edward has ceded defeat.
That's ever the Christian way.

Another one bites the dust.
Imhotep

Saint Petersburg, FL

#100 Mar 30, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
Seems brother edward has ceded defeat.
Brother Edward is Selling…
Sadly there are no buyers

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