Atheists Cannot be Moral

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#41 Mar 28, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Precisely why they can't dismiss the OT for the sake of convenience.
They only want what they want and nothing more. Understanding, reason, and logic have no place in their belief system.

Since: Aug 12

Adana, Turkey

#42 Mar 28, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>Let me set this on the right path, I do not hate religious people, but I do hate the religious beliefs. The beliefs of many religions are the direct root of evil veiled in love.
Religions are guidance if you believe in any religions , shows the truth and wrongs and allows you to think on .

if you dont believe any religion , dont care anything , set your own rules and these rules are true for you , even if wrong for others .

Legal systems shape people's lifes. There is a punishment that you do theft , and your religion says that theft is a bad thing and we have a punishment for them. The same thing . A warning to the people . Legal system doesnt give you a reward because you'r a good person , but religions promise you for rewards , a kind of encourages .

Since: Dec 10

Fogelsville, PA

#43 Mar 28, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
Atheists cannot be moral, if atheism is true. If atheism is true, no one can be moral. There is no foundation for any "right" or "wrong" statement if atheism is true. If atheism is true, the kidnapping and murder of a child is as morally neutral as helping an old lady take out her garbage.
http://veridican.org
Your logic is so flawed, it almost hurts to read it.
So who's moral standards are you refering to?
Are you claiming that there are absolute morals? If so, could you give me a few examples?
Have you considered that the standards of a society dictate that socitetys' morals, and may not require a god?
Do you understand empathy?
The idea that you offer is, that if someone doesn't believe in a god, than they cannot be empathtic even in a practical form, indicates your ignorance of human nature and a lack of real world experience.
Lastly, your statment that atheism is not true, would require you to provide some real evidence that a god exists. Since atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god(s), the only way to refute it would be to provide the aforementioned evidence. I will check back to see if you have offered any. If you do not, than I will remain in the default position of a lack of belief(atheism).

Since: Dec 10

Fogelsville, PA

#44 Mar 28, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions are guidance if you believe in any religions , shows the truth and wrongs and allows you to think on .
if you dont believe any religion , dont care anything , set your own rules and these rules are true for you , even if wrong for others .
Legal systems shape people's lifes. There is a punishment that you do theft , and your religion says that theft is a bad thing and we have a punishment for them. The same thing . A warning to the people . Legal system doesnt give you a reward because you'r a good person , but religions promise you for rewards , a kind of encourages .
What religion do you follow?

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#45 Mar 28, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions are guidance if you believe in any religions , shows the truth and wrongs and allows you to think on .
if you dont believe any religion , dont care anything , set your own rules and these rules are true for you , even if wrong for others .
Legal systems shape people's lifes. There is a punishment that you do theft , and your religion says that theft is a bad thing and we have a punishment for them. The same thing . A warning to the people . Legal system doesnt give you a reward because you'r a good person , but religions promise you for rewards , a kind of encourages .
Imagine doing the right thing, just because it's the right thing. With no possible celestial reward, just do the right thing. That how we atheist roll. We do right, because it's the right way to be.
I won't smack your child, I won't steal from your granny, I won't lie about your mother or cheat your brother. And no god is there to tally my acts into any book, and I will never have to say, I am sorry, forgive me.

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#46 Mar 28, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions are guidance if you believe in any religions , shows the truth and wrongs and allows you to think on .
if you dont believe any religion , dont care anything , set your own rules and these rules are true for you , even if wrong for others .
Legal systems shape people's lifes. There is a punishment that you do theft , and your religion says that theft is a bad thing and we have a punishment for them. The same thing . A warning to the people . Legal system doesnt give you a reward because you'r a good person , but religions promise you for rewards , a kind of encourages .
Religions show you the truths and wrongs?

So all religions are true?

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

#47 Mar 28, 2013
MrDesoto1 wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not what you clearly stated earlier.
<quoted text>
Has the cult that you belong to got you confused already?
You know, I'm pretty popular in forums (not in a good way), and I get a lot of responses to my posts. I skim them very quickly. I was about to address your post, but then you decided to play the "insult" card--atheists always do. They can't help themselves. So, I am ignoring you. I mean, I'm responding now to let you know the ground rules, but if you think you can insult me into responding to you in the future, think again.:)

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

#48 Mar 29, 2013
Amused wrote:
If you don't follow the OT, you are no kinda christian. Your christ said he was here to fulfill OT prophesies and to fulfill the OT law. Without the OT, the NT is a non-sequiter. Unless there was a fall, there's no need for a redemptive sacrifice. So, unless you buy into the OT, the NT is a story of senselessly inflicted pain on a scapegoat created for just that reason.
You don't understand why Jesus was crucified. And I don't follow the Holy Bible. The Veridican canon consists of one book: The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You also overlook the fact that behavior has consequences both for the actor and for all the others in the environment. Behaving in moral ways increases the survival chances of both the individual and the social group. If you kill others, you create a society where it is more likely that you or one dear to you will be killed. If you steal, you increase the chance of your possessions being stolen. If you commit adultery, and that is acceptable, you'll never trust that your children are your own.


So you think morality is just consequences for actions. Fine. That's an atheist mentality, but that's not morality. Morality is knowing right from wrong, even when there is no consequence. So if you kidnap a child and murder it and don't get caught, or if the child is of no consequence to anyone, you're still in the wrong.

Hold on...I have to put on some Christian music...okay, go ahead, you were saying...
Conversely, if you help others, you create an environment where you are more likely to be helped when in need. A society where helping the elderly is valued is also a society that recognizes that its members will in their time become elderly and in need of help.

By banding together in social groups where certain moral behavior is encouraged and immoral behavior is discouraged, we develop a consensus about what is moral and what is not moral. That consensus is not static. It was not that long ago that slavery was acceptable within the consensus. It was even more recently that drunken driving was seen as actual bad behavior that endangers others needlessly.
Slavery works. It would have kept working, as well. There was no evolutionary reason, no Biblical reason, no economic or political reason why it should ever have ended. It was not good for society in any way that it ended.

I think slavery is wrong. And so did many of my fellow Californians and Coloradans during the Civil War (I'm a transplant to Louisiana). So, why should it have ever ended? On what basis?

If morality is not based on authority, and only on negative evolutionary consequences, then I should be able to do anything that won't affect my genetic material being spread. Since I already have three grandsons, I could basically do anything I wanted, couldn't I?
As such, morals are a useful, perhaps even necessary, thing which exists quite apart from your quaint notions of an invisible guy in the sky.
Audrey Assad just sang this verse on my iTunes (speaking of God):

[I]You live in a million places
You're fingerprints can be seen on a million faces[/I]

In two lines, she gives me every reason in the world to be good. In all your lines all I see is an atheist desperately trying to make the cold mechanism of evolution account for morality, too.

Any regrets?

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

#49 Mar 29, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
There is no doctrine of atheism.[/quote]

"-ism" means "doctrine"

"a" no, "the-" God, "-ism" doctrine (of)

[QUOTE]You logic is unsound as it claims there are no morals at all. If so the morals of religion are the same.
As for atheism there is no true or untrue it is the simple lack of theism no more and no less.
As I stated before you seem to lack an appreciation of humanity.
There are morals because atheism is false. There is a God. That's why atheists still believe in "morals."

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

#50 Mar 29, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>So in The First Veridican Church you do not believe that there was any other god other than Jesus? That Jesus was born of natural birth? As you and the church state you only follow and believe in Jesus and not the old testament.
Veridicans believe the only thing that really exists is God, and all other things are created from His substance: me, you, Jesus, everything. We also believe the human purpose is to be Christ, just like Jesus was, and that that's what he was trying to teach us. Christ, we believe, is God, conscious of Himself, from within His creation.

http://veridican.org

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#51 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
There are morals because atheism is false. There is a God. That's why atheists still believe in "morals."
There is a god?

Really?

Are you referring to one of the Hindu deities?

Richardfs

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#52 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, I'm pretty popular in forums (not in a good way), and I get a lot of responses to my posts. I skim them very quickly. I was about to address your post, but then you decided to play the "insult" card--atheists always do. They can't help themselves. So, I am ignoring you. I mean, I'm responding now to let you know the ground rules, but if you think you can insult me into responding to you in the future, think again.:)
You come to an atheist forum post pure BS and then expect not to be insulted.

All I can say is you are total smeghead.

“New Kind'a Christian”

Since: Mar 13

New Orleans

#53 Mar 29, 2013
B_Girl_Turco wrote:
<quoted text>
I know many religious people who are moral.
I dont know any atheist or jew who is moral.
I spent ten days in Turkey once. I remember it fondly. I had a cold. I went to a pharmacist, and He didn't speak English, but I coughed and he gave me a little brown bottle and motioned as if it was only reasonable that I should use is. I paid hardly anything for it, went back to my hotel room, had no idea of the dosage requirement, drank it all, and...well, I wasn't coughing anymore, that's for sure. I think I actually took a magic carpet ride that night. I'm not sure.

Anyway, I do like Turkey.:)

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#54 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
Veridicans believe the only thing that really exists is God, and all other things are created from His substance: me, you, Jesus, everything. We also believe the human purpose is to be Christ, just like Jesus was, and that that's what he was trying to teach us. Christ, we believe, is God, conscious of Himself, from within His creation.
http://veridican.org
In other words your beliefs are based on documents that were copied, forged and doctored by a bunch of dark age Catholics and their theological gerrymandering.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#55 Mar 29, 2013
The foundational question is: Why is something morally right or wrong? It is because it pleases or displeases God or some other deities or because it causes other beings to be, on the one hand, happy, comfortable, and safe or, on the other, sad, uncomfortable, in pain, or even to die? Personally, I think the latter, that actions that improve the lives of our fellow creatures or the condition of the planet that we all share have value for their own sake, not for any religious reason. So I am kind to others, generous to those in need, and responsible in the way my life impacts the planet to the best of my ability, which is, admittedly, lacking at times.

Do all atheists share my ethos? I doubt it, but many do, and it demonstrates that religion is not an essential element of moral behavior.

Brother Edward has stated and restated his basic premise, but he has not supported it to my satisfaction, so I am not obligated to support my contrary view. I do so anyway because it pleases me to show that much courtesy. But courtesy has a limit, and I have no intention of visiting the site he promotes or giving a moment's thought to his religious assertions. This forum is not an appropriate place for evangelistic effort.

“you must not give faith”

Since: Jul 12

Leicester, UK

#56 Mar 29, 2013
It is not the case that Ethics can be derived from outside religion it must be as shown by the Euthyphro Dilemma. Is X good because it was commanded by God or was it commanded because X is good?

If you go for the first option then you can’t make an argument for any of Gods commands as that would imply that the second is true because it shows that God looked for morality with reason instead of creating it, thus making the God of the first option arbitrary and so useless to ethics.
If you try to make a third option and say “God commands that which is good because God’s nature is intrinsically good” then how can one say God’s nature is good without using the second option.

There can be but one conclusion, the only ethics that matter are secular ethical theories, as the religious most logically look outside the religion to show it is good, and if secular reasoning shows your religion is evil… too bad you have to say the religion is evil.

Since: Dec 10

Fogelsville, PA

#57 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
There are morals because atheism is false. There is a God. That's why atheists still believe in "morals."
So what evidence do you offer that there is a god? In other words, why should I believe you when you make that claim? If I claim that there are sock gremlins, and I read about them in the very old sock gremlin holy book, would you believe me? I doubt it. So why should I believe you?

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#58 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, I'm pretty popular in forums (not in a good way), and I get a lot of responses to my posts. I skim them very quickly. I was about to address your post, but then you decided to play the "insult" card--atheists always do. They can't help themselves. So, I am ignoring you. I mean, I'm responding now to let you know the ground rules, but if you think you can insult me into responding to you in the future, think again.:)
You've gotten 12 posts posted, and maybe thrice that in responses, at over 12,000 posts to my name, I still wouldn't say that I am popular, and neither will I when I have posted 120,000. Giving yourself airs, is cute.

Since: Dec 10

Fogelsville, PA

#59 Mar 29, 2013
I see brother Ed failed to answer my post.
I guess he is no different from all the other theists, and runs away from the tough ones. LOL!! How completly typical of him. Nothing new or special with him.

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#60 Mar 29, 2013
Brother Edward wrote:
<quoted text>
Veridicans believe the only thing that really exists is God, and all other things are created from His substance: me, you, Jesus, everything. We also believe the human purpose is to be Christ, just like Jesus was, and that that's what he was trying to teach us. Christ, we believe, is God, conscious of Himself, from within His creation.
http://veridican.org
Really, so Jesus just wanted the Gentile woman to be him?

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