Will atheists win the fight?
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#371 May 3, 2013
Thinking wrote:
We've got cars (I've four), we just hide them. And when they are finished with, we don't leave them on our land, unlike some who shall go nameless...
<quoted text>
Face it we ' colonials ! are slobs!
I have two cars
But I really don't think the average person in Europe owns a auto

In Rome for example there must be 10 motorscooters to every four wheeled vehicle and an interesting point about Italy in general and driving there

A cop in Rome told us that in Italy driving signs and lights are "merely suggestions"!

LOL

We did witness controlled chaos in virtually every major city where driving was involved

4 cars? We have two - sports car and sedan

Where do you park them
Thinking

Salisbury, UK

#372 May 3, 2013
One car is garaged (it doesn't have a roof), the other three are on a block paved section in front.

The law in Italy is now that the pedestrian is always in the right, so at least no one is trying to run anyone over. Although cars weaving round you rather than stopping is disconcerting.
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Face it we ' colonials ! are slobs!
I have two cars
But I really don't think the average person in Europe owns a auto
In Rome for example there must be 10 motorscooters to every four wheeled vehicle and an interesting point about Italy in general and driving there
A cop in Rome told us that in Italy driving signs and lights are "merely suggestions"!
LOL
We did witness controlled chaos in virtually every major city where driving was involved
4 cars? We have two - sports car and sedan
Where do you park them
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#373 May 3, 2013
Thinking wrote:
One car is garaged (it doesn't have a roof), the other three are on a block paved section in front.
The law in Italy is now that the pedestrian is always in the right, so at least no one is trying to run anyone over. Although cars weaving round you rather than stopping is disconcerting.
<quoted text>
You get used to it

In Amsterdam for example they have parking garages not for cars - bicycles only how many levels - One had ten

Also you are not insured in France in Paris if you're driving around that circle where the
Arc de Triomphe de l'Étoile is.

How many countries of you visited in Europe?
We have taken a 7 day cruise out of Barcelona in the Mediterranean (RCCL) another to Greece and Egypt

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#374 May 3, 2013
By the way, Pauli? You wanted a proof that consciousness isn't required for wave function collapse. here is a standard double-slit experiment set up so the 'observer' is a small electronic detector. No consciousness, but you still get wave function collapse.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/...

Quote:
" The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it.

Apart from "observing," or detecting, the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Yet the scientists found that the very presence of the detector-"observer" near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier. In fact, this effect was dependent on the "amount" of the observation: when the "observer's" capacity to detect electrons increased, in other words, when the level of the observation went up, the interference weakened; in contrast, when its capacity to detect electrons was reduced, in other words, when the observation slackened, the interference increased. "
Thinking

Salisbury, UK

#375 May 3, 2013
According to the UN list of countries, I've visited 25 European countries and I live in a 26th. But whether you regard somewhere like Liechtenstein as a country is a moot point.

You are insured to drive through l'Étoile, however there is a caveat: if you have an accident, both parties are usually found equally culpable, whatever the circumstances.
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
You get used to it
In Amsterdam for example they have parking garages not for cars - bicycles only how many levels - One had ten
Also you are not insured in France in Paris if you're driving around that circle where the
Arc de Triomphe de l'Étoile is.
How many countries of you visited in Europe?
We have taken a 7 day cruise out of Barcelona in the Mediterranean (RCCL) another to Greece and Egypt
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#376 May 3, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, the *context* of the whole argument is a time when the universe has expanded enough that quantum fluctuations dominate the dynamics. For an expanding universe like ours, that would be trillions upon trillions of years in the future, far past when the earth would be gone. And that is just the *beginning*. Did you even read what I said?
A popular treatment:
https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/...
A technical treatment:
http://iopscience.iop.org/1126-6708/2007/06/0...
A reply discussing probability sinks in a multiverse that avoids the paradox:
http://iopscience.iop.org/1475-7516/2007/01/0...
And the *paradox* is that there would be infinitely many such delusional brains if the universe lasts forever, so the probability of being one of those brains is supposedly high. As I pointed out, though, the probability of producing a new universe is higher than that of producing a brain and that makes the relative probabilities switch.
And once again, this has *nothing at all* to do with theism.
At this point in time it looks like the 'multiverse' is the god of the gaps for some physicists. Is there any evidence for a ‘multiverse’? Any argument based on a 'multiverse' is mere speculation. How can a theory about the 'multiverse' be falsified?
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#377 May 3, 2013
Thinking wrote:
According to the UN list of countries, I've visited 25 European countries and I live in a 26th. But whether you regard somewhere like Liechtenstein as a country is a moot point.
You are insured to drive through l'Étoile, however there is a caveat: if you have an accident, both parties are usually found equally culpable, whatever the circumstances.
<quoted text>


Last year we met a gentleman from Istanbul he invited us to his home.

Is the Orient express or something similar still in business?

Flam Railway is spectacular. You've done many more countries than us

We've been in all the countries in Central America in the Caribbean with the exception of South America and as far south as Trinidad Tabago

Never been to Asia or Australia
Russia. Or the Baltic states

Additional note when going into some relatively unstable country wear a Canadian T-shirt with a big Mapleleaf on it

They don't like Americans at all. One can almost feel the contained contempt
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#378 May 3, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
By the way, Pauli? You wanted a proof that consciousness isn't required for wave function collapse. here is a standard double-slit experiment set up so the 'observer' is a small electronic detector. No consciousness, but you still get wave function collapse.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/...
Quote:
" The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it.
Apart from "observing," or detecting, the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Yet the scientists found that the very presence of the detector-"observer" near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier. In fact, this effect was dependent on the "amount" of the observation: when the "observer's" capacity to detect electrons increased, in other words, when the level of the observation went up, the interference weakened; in contrast, when its capacity to detect electrons was reduced, in other words, when the observation slackened, the interference increased. "
It took a human mind to develope the 'observing' devise. Also, it has been found that future events can affect past events. A future human 'observer' of the results may have affected the out come of the experiment.
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#379 May 3, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
By the way, Pauli? You wanted a proof that consciousness isn't required for wave function collapse. here is a standard double-slit experiment set up so the 'observer' is a small electronic detector. No consciousness, but you still get wave function collapse.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/...
Quote:
" The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it.
Apart from "observing," or detecting, the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Yet the scientists found that the very presence of the detector-"observer" near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier. In fact, this effect was dependent on the "amount" of the observation: when the "observer's" capacity to detect electrons increased, in other words, when the level of the observation went up, the interference weakened; in contrast, when its capacity to detect electrons was reduced, in other words, when the observation slackened, the interference increased. "
Can a human 'observe' anything at the quantum level? Is it not all done through instrumentation that extends human 'observation' to the quantum level?
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#380 May 3, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Last year we met a gentleman from Istanbul he invited us to his home.
Is the Orient express or something similar still in business?
Flam Railway is spectacular. You've done many more countries than us
We've been in all the countries in Central America in the Caribbean with the exception of South America and as far south as Trinidad Tabago
Never been to Asia or Australia
Russia. Or the Baltic states
Additional note when going into some relatively unstable country wear a Canadian T-shirt with a big Mapleleaf on it
They don't like Americans at all. One can almost feel the contained contempt
When there is a real challenge to their faith atheists resort to spam.
Thinking

Salisbury, UK

#381 May 3, 2013
The Orient express is a brand that is used in many countries. I took it to the Epsom Derby, which is only thirty miles or so.

http://www.orient-express.com/web/orex/home.j...

Haven't done much in the Caribbean, but been to Africa, South America, some SE Asia, Australia, NZ. 56 countries so far. The most interesting was probably Bhutan. All were welcoming except perhaps Israel.
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Last year we met a gentleman from Istanbul he invited us to his home.
Is the Orient express or something similar still in business?
Flam Railway is spectacular. You've done many more countries than us
We've been in all the countries in Central America in the Caribbean with the exception of South America and as far south as Trinidad Tabago
Never been to Asia or Australia
Russia. Or the Baltic states
Additional note when going into some relatively unstable country wear a Canadian T-shirt with a big Mapleleaf on it
They don't like Americans at all. One can almost feel the contained contempt
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#382 May 3, 2013
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
When there is a real challenge to their faith atheists resort to spam.
Gosh Paulie,

I had no idea that you owned this forum!

What is the cost to tell you you are absolutely bananas?

Your position has never been answered you support pedophile central buddy, Get over it.

All you do is make excuses for the Vatican instead of trying to correct it.

I gave you Canon law is still in the books whatever happened to it?

About the ' Servants of the Paraclete'?

would you want to explain that for everyone in this forum that you own?

Hop to it!
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#383 May 3, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Gosh Paulie,
I had no idea that you owned this forum!
What is the cost to tell you you are absolutely bananas?
Your position has never been answered you support pedophile central buddy, Get over it.
All you do is make excuses for the Vatican instead of trying to correct it.
I gave you Canon law is still in the books whatever happened to it?
About the ' Servants of the Paraclete'?
would you want to explain that for everyone in this forum that you own?
Hop to it!
You can't answer a challenge to your faith so you need to go off on some witch hunt. Sorry for you but as science advances the sand from under atheism will slip away and nothing of it will remain.
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#384 May 3, 2013
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't answer a challenge to your faith so you need to go off on some witch hunt. Sorry for you but as science advances the sand from under atheism will slip away and nothing of it will remain.
I told you before What my beliefs were and they have nothing to do with faith. Yours or anyone else's.

You are too funny but since you suffer from deliberate Alzheimer's - allow me to refresh your meager memory of secular humanism... ;)

My book

THE AFFIRMATIONS OF HUMANISM: A STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php ...

[1] We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

[2] We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, explain the world in supernatural terms, and look outside nature for salvation.

[3] We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

[4] We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

[5] We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

[6] We [prefer] negotiation and compromise to [resolve] differences and achiev[e] mutual understanding.

[7] We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

[8] We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

[9] We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on [prejudices] and strive to work together for the common good.

[10] We want to protect, preserve and enhance the earth, and avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

[11] We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

[12] We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

[13] Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

[14] We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. Together we discover normative standards tested by their consequences.

[15] We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

[16] We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

[17] We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

[18] We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas.

[19] We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

[20] We believe in optimism, hope, learning, truth, joy, tolerance, love, compassion, beauty, and reason rather than pessimism, despair, dogma, ignorance, guilt or sin, fear, hatred, selfishness, ugliness, and blind, irrational faith.

[21] We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

Your book

" Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock! "
-- Psalm 137.9.
Paul WV

Beckley, WV

#385 May 3, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
I told you before What my beliefs were and they have nothing to do with faith. Yours or anyone else's.
You are too funny but since you suffer from deliberate Alzheimer's - allow me to refresh your meager memory of secular humanism... ;)
My book
THE AFFIRMATIONS OF HUMANISM: A STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php ...
[1] We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
[2] We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, explain the world in supernatural terms, and look outside nature for salvation.
[3] We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
[4] We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
[5] We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
[6] We [prefer] negotiation and compromise to [resolve] differences and achiev[e] mutual understanding.
[7] We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
[8] We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
[9] We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on [prejudices] and strive to work together for the common good.
[10] We want to protect, preserve and enhance the earth, and avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
[11] We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
[12] We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
[13] Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
[14] We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. Together we discover normative standards tested by their consequences.
[15] We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
[16] We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
[17] We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
[18] We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas.
[19] We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
[20] We believe in optimism, hope, learning, truth, joy, tolerance, love, compassion, beauty, and reason rather than pessimism, despair, dogma, ignorance, guilt or sin, fear, hatred, selfishness, ugliness, and blind, irrational faith.
[21] We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.
Your book
" Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock! "
-- Psalm 137.9.
What does reposting your creed prove? It is what you place your faith in and nothing more.
Imhotep

Silver Springs, FL

#386 May 3, 2013
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
What does reposting your creed prove? It is what you place your faith in and nothing more.
I believe in me! Paul
I believe in gravity, I do not have faith in it.
I believe I will lose at the slot machine. I hope not but have zero faith in the slot machine

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#387 May 3, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
I still miss dammit!
Practice!

:)

I suggest really strong tea, or perhaps beer-- either one will refuel your instrument, for more practicing.

:D

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#388 May 3, 2013
Thinking wrote:
I thought the fly was to improve people's aim?
<quoted text>
Thinking wrote:
Oops - should've read your post first...
<quoted text>
:D

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#389 May 3, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
By the way, Pauli? You wanted a proof that consciousness isn't required for wave function collapse. here is a standard double-slit experiment set up so the 'observer' is a small electronic detector. No consciousness, but you still get wave function collapse.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/...
Quote:
" The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it.
Apart from "observing," or detecting, the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Yet the scientists found that the very presence of the detector-"observer" near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier. In fact, this effect was dependent on the "amount" of the observation: when the "observer's" capacity to detect electrons increased, in other words, when the level of the observation went up, the interference weakened; in contrast, when its capacity to detect electrons was reduced, in other words, when the observation slackened, the interference increased. "
Cool! Science for the WIN!

Again...!

As Dawkins quipped: "because it works. bitches."

:D

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#390 May 3, 2013
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
It took a human mind to develope the 'observing' devise. Also, it has been found that future events can affect past events. A future human 'observer' of the results may have affected the out come of the experiment.
Wow... just... wow. You literally have to twist actual reality, to force-fit it into your delusions.

That is ... pathetic.

Seriously.

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