Countdown till the end of the world.

[Gramen Ferox]

RHill wrote:

<quoted text>
Takes one to know one!

Right,“Blue Collar Philosopher".

[Hedonist]

Gramen Ferox wrote:

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Right,“Blue Collar Philosopher".

Hey, is that the new Jeff Foxworthy thing ...

"you might be a blue collar philosopher if ... you call people who disagree with you pseudo intellectuals."

[Yankee Yahoo]

RHill wrote:

<quoted text>
It was our Universe, just happened to be in a "hot dense state". It existed, it was all there. How could it be otherwise?

How could what be otherwise?

It just happened to be ...?

LOL!

Thus, how did it all begin. Either it was created, or it is an accident. Being that the universe clearly started off as something very small and hot and dense, and then exploded into something that won't be coming back together into that same state, that makes the evidence pretty obvious.

If your notion of science is that ... it just happened to be ... you're in big trouble in the academic world, my friend.

[Yankee Yahoo]

Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:

<quoted text>
Your biggest mistake-- and you make many-- is that you can only "think" (if you want to call what you do "thinking") in absolute, black-or-white terms.
You equate the term "nothing" (as used by the theorists) as absolute-- a classic mistake.
But this is not surprising: you have zero experience outside your little black-or-white myth-culture of hate (Genuine Christianity™).
What was meant by the theorists of the Big Bang, was "nothing as we know it now".
Whatever the universe was prior to the Big Bang cannot be known, so long as we are confined to the present universe or it's conditions.
This is because information cannot survive the initial conditions of the Big Bang itself-- so knowing (information) cannot pass that barrier.
The Universe could have existed prior to the Big Bang initial event, only in some other form.
Unless you can travel outside the current universe, there is simply no way of knowing.
You are so very tiny-minded in your desperate and pathetic attempt to "disprove" what you are utterly clueless with regards, you limit your tiny little black-or-white brain (if you want to call what you keep in your skull a "brain"-- overly generous, really).
Sad.

"The Universe could have existed prior to the Big Bang initial event, only in some other form."

Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Could have existed ... that is not science. There is no evidence to support anything existed prior to the Big Bang (and I INCLUDE the dense hot mass prior to that point.) It was NOT an actual big bang, it was a gradual process from nothing to something.

And you haven't even touched on when time and space began, and the laws of physics themselves, or their origins.

Information cannot survive the Big Bang? Well then, that makes you assertion one of faith that anything existed at all. There is zero scientific evidence for anything before it, period. Oh, but how convenient for you, that no evidence could have survived, right?

LOL!

[Yankee Yahoo]

Drew Smith wrote:

The person here who is in way over his head is *you*, since *you* are the one who clearly doesn't understand the Big Bang theory. That theory makes no claim that there was "nothing" before the Universe.(From the Wikipedia article *you* yourself quoted, that theory takes us back only to an "extremely hot and dense state", and clearly does not take us back to "nothing.")
I suggest that you first attempt to understand the Big Bang theory before you attempt to engage in discussion of the origin (if any) of the Universe. Otherwise you merely embarrass yourself.
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You obviously don't even *understand* the Big Bang theory, so it doesn't matter whether it's your assertion or not.
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No, the Big Bang theory asserts that the Universe can be traced back to a dense and hot state. It makes no assertion what, if anything, preceded that state.
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Nobody here has claimed that it does, so your statement is irrelevant.
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I'm not the one here misrepresenting what the Big Bang theory says. That misrepresentation is coming from *you*.
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Indeed, but the Big Bang theory makes no claim that the hot and dense state was preceded by "nothing".
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No, it's a word that *Fred Hoyle* used. Hoyle never was elected to speak on behalf of atheists.
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Yet you keep making false assertions about the Big Bang theory.
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No, I am asserting that one cannot *rule out* the idea that the Universe has always existed. You certainly have provided no evidence to rule it out.
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No, it isn't.
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Then you should be able to identify the specific peer-reviewed cosmological paper that successfully debunked it. Identify that paper.
Lots of people work for universities. Janitors, for instance. Food service people. Landscapers. Funny how you won't say what you do at a university.
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You've already demonstrated that you're in over your head by misrepresenting what the Big Bang theory says.
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If you can't even understand what the Big Bang theory says, then it's a good thing you didn't attempt to go in that direction.

Drew?

Why are you being dishonest?

I know exactly what the Big Bang theory is, and I've made that clear. And I know it supports a point of origin of the universe, it does NOT support a cyclic hypothesis or eternal universe. It does not support the existence of anything ... including space and time and the laws of physics, before the moment of origin.

Thus, there is no Eternal Universe Theory, no other theory, but the Big Bang, that holds any water.

And you sit here and pretend to know what you're talking about.

So, once again, got any evidence that the universe is an accident or eternal?

Quick now, go look up Hawkins multiverse ideas and other wild and crazies possibilities, none of which have graduated to actual hard science.

What you have is speculation.

And you know how I know that you are in way over your head? You haven't even touched on the origin of space and time and the laws of physics themselves.

I guess those just happened, too, right? Good day, Drew.

[The Heathen]

Did I miss the "special day"?
Are there any snacks left?
How many "end of the world parties" are we going to have, waiting for their sky-daddy to get off his all-powerful ass and do something?

[havent forgotten]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

<quoted text>
How could what be otherwise?
It just happened to be ...?
LOL!
Thus, how did it all begin. Either it was created, or it is an accident. Being that the universe clearly started off as something very small and hot and dense, and then exploded into something that won't be coming back together into that same state, that makes the evidence pretty obvious.
If your notion of science is that ... it just happened to be ... you're in big trouble in the academic world, my friend.

when you folks who are sure of your own answers stop making fools of yourselves claiming to know what you don't know - let us know. meanwhile, the claimtoknow types can fight it out and continue to show us they have nothing they can make a case for. on any side of that argument.

[havent forgotten]

Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:

<quoted text>
Education also plays a role here too.
The more educated a person is? Or, the more exposure to different and widely-varying cultures a person experiences?
The higher the likelihood of them becoming (or being) a non-theist.
Nothing makes atheists faster than a historically accurate, comparative religious course.

I think it might be interesting to find out what does make people who were raised with religious views turn atheist. Is it rational thought? or is it turning against a repressive life-style? I think several of the atheists in here became atheists, despite religious backgrounds, or perhaps because of them.(instead of being lucky like I was and free from religion from the start - with agnostic parents who did not believe in the Biblical God, at least - did not consider others except as Greek myths).

[Yankee Yahoo]

The Heathen wrote:

Did I miss the "special day"?
Are there any snacks left?
How many "end of the world parties" are we going to have, waiting for their sky-daddy to get off his all-powerful ass and do something?

Oh not to worry. We Christians have a lot of work to do before the End of the World. Why, we have a whole universe to colonize first.

;)

[Yankee Yahoo]

havent forgotten wrote:

<quoted text> when you folks who are sure of your own answers stop making fools of yourselves claiming to know what you don't know - let us know. meanwhile, the claimtoknow types can fight it out and continue to show us they have nothing they can make a case for. on any side of that argument.

Wait.

That's usually what I have to tell atheists.

Are you trying to turn the tables?

Ha ha ha ha!!!!!

[Yankee Yahoo]

havent forgotten wrote:

<quoted text> I think it might be interesting to find out what does make people who were raised with religious views turn atheist. Is it rational thought? or is it turning against a repressive life-style? I think several of the atheists in here became atheists, despite religious backgrounds, or perhaps because of them.(instead of being lucky like I was and free from religion from the start - with agnostic parents who did not believe in the Biblical God, at least - did not consider others except as Greek myths).

Nah, I think it's interesting to know what turns atheists into Christians. Oh wait, we already know.

Logic, reason, and science. Unfortunately, thanks to you militants, a lot of scientists with faith have to keep it to themselves, unlike the good old days when Christianity and science were one and the same.

Oh no, poor soul. You are not free of our religion of Christ. You are enjoying the fruits of it every day, inside the most advance civilization ever to grace this planet, and protected by some of the most advanced laws that have developed human rights.

Let me know when a secular civilization ever comes to exist, and then maybe we can see what such a world would be like.

[RHill]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

<quoted text>
How could what be otherwise?
It just happened to be ...?
LOL!
Thus, how did it all begin. Either it was created, or it is an accident. Being that the universe clearly started off as something very small and hot and dense, and then exploded into something that won't be coming back together into that same state, that makes the evidence pretty obvious.
If your notion of science is that ... it just happened to be ... you're in big trouble in the academic world, my friend.

It is not against Academia I need to argue. In fact, I anxiously await their next revelation. Since you want to boil the Universe down to two possibilities (created or accident)... I'm going for ACCIDENT. It (the Universe) was in a hot, dense state and then it exploded. We don't know why. Somebody probably left the stove on. Just a guess. But ... created? Created by some extra-dimensional, being beyond our comprehension? Why would you even find that comforting? Why would you even want to go there? What punctuates our Earthly existence? Plans created after careful consideration that always blossom to a joyous fruition? No. It's chock full of accident and misadventures, random acts of Nature and our fellow man ... completely crazy, completely outta control. Why should the Universe be any different? Why does that scare you? Hang on and enjoy the ride!!!

[RHill]

I mean ... you think the evidence for what existed before the "Big Bang" is sparse ... try looking for "super-extra-dimensional being beyond our comprehension" tracks ... there ain't any. You know, it's not just quantity (of evidence) but QUALITY!!! All of the evidence for "super-extra-dimensional, beyond our comprehension" beings comes right out of the heads of people whose sanity is very much in doubt. At this late stage of my life, I'd rather bow to a popcorn fart than such a made-up being.

[Some1 Else]

RHill wrote:

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Went to a Cat-lick wedding and a Baptist funeral over the weekend. Both were attended by depressingly large numbers of seemingly devout people. The Cat-licks in particular, all knowing what to recite and when ... frightening. The Baptists ... not much better with the arms all waving in Jesus drenched devotion ... reminded me of a Nazi rally. The god-being they all worship suffered my presence without comment or action. I was not surprised.

Well, of course, I'm not looking forward to my mother's passing for obvious reasons, though it's apparent it's imminent; but what you mention is one of those reasons. She's baptist and the same man who "preached" my step-father's funeral will also "preach" hers. I see it as completely disrespectful to "preach" at a funeral, calling out the "unbelievers" as if its the end of a sermon and he's trying to convert people. Sickened me. Surely he'll have his hand out afterward, but I'll smile and remind him of Jesus' alleged words that he received the teachings freely, he is to give them freely, and it's against my beliefs to give money to religious leaders.

Then of course there's most of the family with their god-bothering crap, too, of all different sects, all just as devout as the others. And some of the most vile, hateful, gossipping users and abusers you could ever come across. They have said some horrible things since my mother got sick...I'm only taking care of her so I can collect the assets and other such crap. I'm an only child for petesake!! There are a couple of cousins who seem to think they have a right to some of those assets; guess their religion tells them so...

[Some1 Else]

Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, there's hope: German catholics are so fed up with the atrocities(and the cover-ups), that they are selling off or closing the doors of cathedrals that previously had been in operation hundreds of years.
This is good news.
We can only hope the rising sanity spreads to other countries.

Hopefully here as well. The Vatican is asserting authority on what it deems as "feminist" nuns, those who are upholding the law requiring businesses, including Catholic-ran ones, to provide health insurance covering birth-control methods for women. These women I can stand behind for fighting for liberty 100%. I never throw the baby out with the bathwater, and will always side with those who are fighting for their own rights and esp. for the rights of others against a fanatical, tyranny of religious freaks who only care about hiding their homosexual, pedophilic tendencies behind Vatican doors. I was thinking nuking the dang Vatican would solve a helluva lot of problems.

[Some1 Else]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

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"The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that explains the early development of the Universe,[1] and theoretical parallel universes.[2] According to the Big Bang theory, the Universe was once in an extremely hot and dense state which expanded rapidly." - Wikipedia
You obviously are in way over your head. This is a discussion about the origin of the universe. There was nothing before the universe, that is the prevailing scientific theory. Yes, the Big Bang Theory DOES claim there was nothing before the universe.
Now, if you wish to assert that the universe always existed, then provide evidence that contradicts ALL scientific knowledge, please. Such as why the universe is expanding with no possibility of it contracting, and thus proving the universe could not have always existed when obviously we still have a not fully expanded universe yet.
You people are amazing.

Your own quote from Wiki disagrees with everything you've written.

"that explains the early development of the Universe,[1] and theoretical parallel universes"

If there are universes, then you can't say there was nothing before our own universe. I swear you are density incarnate! I'm guessing your study of M Theory, String Theory, Branes, etc isn't going too well...

[Some1 Else]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

<quoted text>
Not at all. There must be an origin, so there must be an original source for the universe or all universes which may exist. This is simple logic. The Greeks already went over this, and nothing new in modern times contradicts their conclusions ... there must be an original creator.
Right, we Christians invented science as we know it. The modern world is our world. You seem to think that something has changed in history where today is some sort of secular isolated world free from the influences of the past. This is a poor assumption on your part. Theology comes EXTREMELY close to all scientific knowledge, and Christianity is by far the most scientific religion on earth. It is AMAZING that in this day and age you are relying on old, 1700's propaganda long since rebuked by the scientific community.
The rest of your assertions are just nonsense, which I'm afraid are based on nothing more than prejudices and misinformation about numerous things.

Cause doesn't equate to "creator." A car accident has a cause. Does it have a "creator?" If so, the "creator" caused destruction, not production. Is that what you are proposing your deity did in "creating" the universe?

[Some1 Else]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

<quoted text>
Nah, I think it's interesting to know what turns atheists into Christians. Oh wait, we already know.
Logic, reason, and science. Unfortunately, thanks to you militants, a lot of scientists with faith have to keep it to themselves, unlike the good old days when Christianity and science were one and the same.
Oh no, poor soul. You are not free of our religion of Christ. You are enjoying the fruits of it every day, inside the most advance civilization ever to grace this planet, and protected by some of the most advanced laws that have developed human rights.
Let me know when a secular civilization ever comes to exist, and then maybe we can see what such a world would be like.

Really? So is that also why hundreds of pastors, preachers, priests, etc have kept their atheism or agnosticism in the closet for so long as well? Why yes, they employed logic, reason and science and realized they just couldn't believe the load of crap they'd been served and then served to others.

Most advanced civilization? Why? Because you say so? We can't even duplicate the pyramids in Egypt, but we can build mediocre houses from wood, nails and Chinese drywall.

[Drew Smith]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

Why are you being dishonest?

As I'm not being dishonest, your question is of the "When did you stop beating your wife?" variety.

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

I know exactly what the Big Bang theory is, and I've made that clear.

Apparently not, since you seem to think that the Big Bang theory claims that the Universe started from "nothing". It doesn't. The Big Bang theory takes the Universe back to a hot, dense state. It makes no claim as to what, if anything, preceded that state.

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

So, once again, got any evidence that the universe is an accident or eternal?

Who here said anything about "accidents"? Certainly not me.

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

And you know how I know that you are in way over your head? You haven't even touched on the origin of space and time and the laws of physics themselves.

I haven't touched on many topics, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm well aware that the Big Bang theory makes no claim that the Universe originated from "nothing". You appear to believe otherwise, which tells us that you are the one here in over his head.

I'm still waiting to hear what you do for your university. Janitor? Food service? Landscaping? Care to share?

[RHill]

Some1 Else wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, of course, I'm not looking forward to my mother's passing for obvious reasons, though it's apparent it's imminent; but what you mention is one of those reasons. She's baptist and the same man who "preached" my step-father's funeral will also "preach" hers. I see it as completely disrespectful to "preach" at a funeral, calling out the "unbelievers" as if its the end of a sermon and he's trying to convert people. Sickened me. Surely he'll have his hand out afterward, but I'll smile and remind him of Jesus' alleged words that he received the teachings freely, he is to give them freely, and it's against my beliefs to give money to religious leaders.
Then of course there's most of the family with their god-bothering crap, too, of all different sects, all just as devout as the others. And some of the most vile, hateful, gossipping users and abusers you could ever come across. They have said some horrible things since my mother got sick...I'm only taking care of her so I can collect the assets and other such crap. I'm an only child for petesake!! There are a couple of cousins who seem to think they have a right to some of those assets; guess their religion tells them so...

Yeah. My Mom's 90 now and recently injured her back. A very painful injury. She was always a devout Baptist and now can't understand why her God won't help her ... it must be horrible and very confusing. I think it's causing her to lose faith which must make dying more frightening to someone who thought they had it all figured out. Ain't religion grand?