If God is false, why are we here?

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“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

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#42
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
IF God is not real then someone tell me WHERE & HOW we came about,... I believe one could actually prove that there is a "creator," but no one can disprove a creator.
Ok, prove it.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

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#43
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
Also, IF there is no creator, that means that there are no higher standards/morals. So, as humans we're free to govern and conduct life as we please. Including making our own decisions about what's moral, relevant, right, wrong, truth, untruth, etc. This is a dangerous way of thinking b/c then one could justify anything from lying to stealing to suicide to rape to murder to genocide, etc. The Nazis didn't believe in a higher power, for example, so it was easier to justify their acts by claiming that THEY were superior and no on else (including God) could tell them that was UNTRUE.
This is my big problem with the athiest/humanist way of thinking.
Then you don't understand the humanist way of thinking.

Also, you should leave Hitler out of your argument. Hitler said he was commiting his special acts of hatred against the Jews because he was "continuing the lords work" and the Nazi motto was "Gott Mit Uns" (god with us).

Lastly, please explain where your morals come from. The bible? I think not, unless you still think stoning impertinent children to death is moral, or slavery, or killing witches or all the other morals that are no longer applicable to our society. No, you filter the bible ever time you pick it up to only read the parts that conform with our current set of morals, not the other way around.

“Liberalism = disorder ”

Since: Sep 08

ATLANTA

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#44
Nov 19, 2008
 
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you don't understand the humanist way of thinking.
Also, you should leave Hitler out of your argument. Hitler said he was commiting his special acts of hatred against the Jews because he was "continuing the lords work" and the Nazi motto was "Gott Mit Uns" (god with us).
Lastly, please explain where your morals come from. The bible? I think not, unless you still think stoning impertinent children to death is moral, or slavery, or killing witches or all the other morals that are no longer applicable to our society. No, you filter the bible ever time you pick it up to only read the parts that conform with our current set of morals, not the other way around.
I'm not brilliant enough nor have the time to "prove" there's a god. I said it COULD be done.
Now, good point on Hitler. My point there was that genocide CAN be more easily justified IF there is NO belief in a higher power - because then WE can basically say anything is okay because WE say so.

Also, my morals do come from the Bible. What you miss is that back then, God comanded Jews to do certain things because there was no moral code back then and God was trying to establish the law, which was before Christ's dying on the cross for our sins, yada yada, you've heard it. I don't fully understand that part of the Bible yet.

However, "slavery" and "burning witches", where the hell is that in the Bible? NOWHERE. 17th Century ignorant "Christians" did that, similar to some of the Islamic fundamentalism. But none of that was in the Bible.

Look, religion often seems to promote violence but what you may never get is that at least religious people believe in some solid morals, what morals do you believe in??? If you have them, tell me, WHERE or HOW do you get them.

“Liberalism = disorder ”

Since: Sep 08

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#45
Nov 19, 2008
 
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you don't understand the humanist way of thinking.
Also, you should leave Hitler out of your argument. Hitler said he was commiting his special acts of hatred against the Jews because he was "continuing the lords work" and the Nazi motto was "Gott Mit Uns" (god with us).
Lastly, please explain where your morals come from. The bible? I think not, unless you still think stoning impertinent children to death is moral, or slavery, or killing witches or all the other morals that are no longer applicable to our society. No, you filter the bible ever time you pick it up to only read the parts that conform with our current set of morals, not the other way around.


Also, if you don't believe in a higher power, AND that humans came from slime, how can you tell me its wrong for me to put a gun to you're head? Or burn you're family's house down, for instance? I mean, tell me why that WOULD be wrong. Because you're saying we're all basically objects that came from goo, including you so why shouldn't someone do that?

Since: Oct 08

Buffalo, NY

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#46
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, if you don't believe in a higher power, AND that humans came from slime, how can you tell me its wrong for me to put a gun to you're head? Or burn you're family's house down, for instance? I mean, tell me why that WOULD be wrong. Because you're saying we're all basically objects that came from goo, including you so why shouldn't someone do that?
It doesn't matter where we came from, only that we're here. We all have thoughts, feelings, goals, etc. If you were to kill someone, or burn their property, you would still be inflicting harm on them.

I personally judge the morality of actions by the type of effect it has on other people.
Immoral = negatively effects another unwilling recipient.
Moral = benefits another person, of course without harming anyone else - except perhaps the person performing the action (altruism).

To put it simply, humans evolved empathy because the trait helped societies function better and increased the survivability of all cooperating individuals, while the immoral people were outcast.

If, as you suggest, we all just run around doing whatever we want regardless of the consequences to other people, society would cease to function and much of humanity would die off.

Society polices the actions of it's members. We don't really need a God telling us what is "right" or "wrong".

“Liberalism = disorder ”

Since: Sep 08

ATLANTA

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#47
Nov 19, 2008
 
CatherineNY wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't matter where we came from, only that we're here. We all have thoughts, feelings, goals, etc. If you were to kill someone, or burn their property, you would still be inflicting harm on them.
I personally judge the morality of actions by the type of effect it has on other people.
Immoral = negatively effects another unwilling recipient.
Moral = benefits another person, of course without harming anyone else - except perhaps the person performing the action (altruism).
To put it simply, humans evolved empathy because the trait helped societies function better and increased the survivability of all cooperating individuals, while the immoral people were outcast.
If, as you suggest, we all just run around doing whatever we want regardless of the consequences to other people, society would cease to function and much of humanity would die off.
Society polices the actions of it's members. We don't really need a God telling us what is "right" or "wrong".
Good points. Now, let me ask you. What happens if/when a society says it's ok to murder/kill if it benefits the majority, IE forced abortions in China? Or abortion for ANY reason in most countries. Or society outlawing religion because world wide religion hurts/kills/promotes hate/violence and intolerance (as Rosie O'PHONYDonell has claimed). It would be easy for a nation to say, enough's enough and go secular by law to benefit "everyone/majority." WHY? BC WE set our own standards. And so far, without some sort of higher power that we believe has created us for a purpose, our lives have little meaning EXCEPT in what GRATIFIES us. And if what gratifies us is satisfying the majority, as nations thru history have done, then WHY should I not be a murderer, a pedophile, a thief, or submit to beastiality, etc?

It's the "if it feels good, do it" idea that gets us into trouble. And you guys still haven't addressed WHY our morals (that we create) are so superior IF we evolved from nothing. NOTHING/MATTER/SLIME - however you put it does NOT make us important.

“Liberalism = disorder ”

Since: Sep 08

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#48
Nov 19, 2008
 
"And if what gratifies us is satisfying the majority, as nations thru history have done, then WHY should I not be a murderer, a pedophile, a thief, or submit to beastiality, etc?"

WHat i meant here was, "...then WHY should nations not outlaw Bibles, the Koran, the Torah, anything religious, talk of religion, hate speech, etc.? AND if its all about gratifying myself then why should I care about society or others???

Since: Oct 08

Buffalo, NY

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#49
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points. Now, let me ask you. What happens if/when a society says it's ok to murder/kill if it benefits the majority....
What you're describing sounds like utilitarianism, which isn't what I was implying at all. I personally don't think we should ever harm someone to benefit the majority, except when there is a direct conflict of rights.
I'm pro-choice. I believe that women have a right to abort their fetus early in the pregnancy if they want. I don't grant an early term fetus moral status simply because it isn't conscious, doesn't know it is alive, doesn't feel pain, or any of the other attributes that I believe makes something worthy of moral consideration.
That said, I think abortion by choice is victimless and therefore morally neutral. Forced abortion, on the other hand, certainly harms the mother (who wanted to keep the child).
I don't believe society should outlaw religion. I very much believe that everyone should have the right to practice whatever religion they desire as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. If the religion is promoting violence, as some do- that isn't a reason to outlaw the religion, only the violence associated with it. Religion is basically just a tool, it can be used for good or evil.
I still feel that my life has meaning even though I don't think anything exists for me after death. It is purely because I know that I have a limited lifespan that my life has urgency and purpose and I make a point to make the most out of each day. To accomplish something, to enjoy my time with family and friends, and yes - to gratify myself. However, that gratification isn't always selfish. I get gratification from making others happy as well.
Some may use the lack of a higher power to excuse immoral behaviour, but they would quickly find themselves alone, ostracized from society, or punished in prison. Therefore, their "gratification" would still have consequences (in this life).
All of those actions you listed are immoral by the criteria I stated in my previous post. Beastiality - harms animals (or at the very least, they can't be considered "willing"), Pedophilia - harms children, thievery and murder - harms the victims. I'm also not sure how any of those things you listed actually helps society or benefits the majority?
You're arguing moral relativism, which I most certainly did not mean to imply. I think certain things are inherently immoral regardless of what the majority of people think.
I'm unsure of what you're asking me here. Why do we have to be important? Why do our morals have to be important? And to whom should we be important?
Our empathy helped us evolve as a species and our morals helped our society evolve into what it is today. Is that important enough for you? In the grand scheme of things, when eventually the sun explodes and the earth is no more, then no - our morals are not important. But they don't really need to be, as long as they work for us now, right?

Since: Oct 08

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#50
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
"And if what gratifies us is satisfying the majority, as nations thru history have done, then WHY should I not be a murderer, a pedophile, a thief, or submit to beastiality, etc?"
WHat i meant here was, "...then WHY should nations not outlaw Bibles, the Koran, the Torah, anything religious, talk of religion, hate speech, etc.? AND if its all about gratifying myself then why should I care about society or others???
Refer to my previous post for the answer I gave about religion.

Also, I never said it was "all about gratifying ourselves". Like I said, society polices itself. So if someone has that attitude, they will quickly find themselves friendless and/or in jail. Short term, they may have gotten their gratification, but long term certainly not.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

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#51
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
... My point there was that genocide CAN be more easily justified IF there is NO belief in a higher power - because then WE can basically say anything is okay because WE say so.
And people can use religion to justify anything too. Like the massacres and genocide (men, women, young and old) practiced by Joshua at god’s command in order to steal the “promised land” from the tribes that lived there – Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, etc. I know, in a few cases, the young unmarried women were spared for breeding purposes, but in most cases all the livestock had to be slaughtered, which seems a little over the top to me.

This all-loving god of yours supposedly stopped the Sun in the sky so Joshua would have more daylight time to slaughter his enemies.
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, my morals do come from the Bible....
However, "slavery" and "burning witches", where the hell is that in the Bible? NOWHERE....
Excuse me, but have you ever read it? Try Exodus 21-22, which is a continuation of the commandments directly from god. Slavery is rampant in the old and new testaments. As for witches, try Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
Look, religion often seems to promote violence but what you may never get is that at least religious people believe in some solid morals, what morals do you believe in??? If you have them, tell me, WHERE or HOW do you get them.
The exact same place you do really, from a desire to exist and thrive in our society. The truth is that you only read the parts of the bible that support our current moral standards and ignore the parts that reflect outmoded morals. You do this based on your own understanding of morals and ethics and then fit the bible to it.

“ecrasez l'infame”

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#52
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, if you don't believe in a higher power, AND that humans came from slime, how can you tell me its wrong for me to put a gun to you're head? Or burn you're family's house down, for instance? I mean, tell me why that WOULD be wrong. Because you're saying we're all basically objects that came from goo, including you so why shouldn't someone do that?
So you are saying that without god you yourself would not know that killing is wrong?

I actually have a more positive belief in the inherent good in people which is simply driven by our desire to get along in peace.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

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#53
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
...
It's the "if it feels good, do it" idea that gets us into trouble. And you guys still haven't addressed WHY our morals (that we create) are so superior IF we evolved from nothing. NOTHING/MATTER/SLIME - however you put it does NOT make us important.
You really do have a very negative view of humanity. Did your religion teach your that?

I'm sure it did. Most religions use fear of becomming a "sinner" in one form or another to keep people.

“Liberalism = disorder ”

Since: Sep 08

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#54
Nov 19, 2008
 
CatherineNY wrote:
<quoted text>
Refer to my previous post for the answer I gave about religion.
Also, I never said it was "all about gratifying ourselves". Like I said, society polices itself. So if someone has that attitude, they will quickly find themselves friendless and/or in jail. Short term, they may have gotten their gratification, but long term certainly not.
The thing is that i dont know where you get you're morals from if we evolved. That IS moral relativism, isn't it?
And I don't think that we are important compared to dust or to the stars or to water IF we're just the product of slime - life - person. No more so than anything else, which would be scary.
nina

Ottawa, Canada

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#55
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
Also, IF there is no creator, that means that there are no higher standards/morals. So, as humans we're free to govern and conduct life as we please. Including making our own decisions about what's moral, relevant, right, wrong, truth, untruth, etc.
which is exactly what happens throughout history and in each culture
nina

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#56
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
... And you guys still haven't addressed WHY our morals (that we create) are so superior IF we evolved from nothing...
superior to what?

superior to a list of rules created centuries ago by people far more barbaric than we are not?

yes, we can do better now because we have the potential to learn from history

making a choice of behavior or action is superior to not thinking and just following a list of proscribed behaviors

you have a choice to be a human that uses their brain to think through a situation and make a decision

or to be an automaton and just apply a rule, regardless of outcome

Perhaps you should watch the movie A Clockwork Orange for the answer
nina

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#57
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not brilliant enough nor have the time to "prove" there's a god. I said it COULD be done.....
no one else has been able to

science doesn't have all the answers right now because it is an on going process of discovery

that some questions do not have answers or evidence to hypothosis

does not mean toss science in the dust bin and slot god did it as the answer

god did it is not any kind of answer and there has never been a shred of evidence to demonstrate any supernatural cause of anything

the fact there have been thousands of religions practised in every culture and time period

demonstrates that religion is a cultural construct that achieves the goals of defining who belongs, providing a framework for the society's values and rituals and population control

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#58
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing is that i dont know where you get you're morals from if we evolved. That IS moral relativism, isn't it?
And I don't think that we are important compared to dust or to the stars or to water IF we're just the product of slime - life - person. No more so than anything else, which would be scary.
I tried to explain that to you simply in a previous post.

Empathy. We evolved empathy, because individuals practicing empathy based morals and altruism had a greater chance of survival/reproduction when living in a society.

We're not important. Why is that scary? Why do you need to be thought of as "important" to have a good life?

Also, just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is ;)
nina

Ottawa, Canada

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#59
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing is that i dont know where you get you're morals from if we evolved....
morals evolve too

pedastry was the norm in ancient greece, now that's child abuse

human sacrifice on mass and individual scales was a normal religious practise to appease gods, ensure a fertile harvest, celebrate a war win

now we call that mass murder and genocide

before the magna carta, people's lives were at the whim of the king

democratic countries took that a step farther and enshrined more rights, protections and responsibilities into law and government structures

better morals are in our future, not our past
Lurker

Houston, TX

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#60
Nov 19, 2008
 
jakeKO54 wrote:
Also, IF there is no creator, that means that there are no higher standards/morals. So, as humans we're free to govern and conduct life as we please. Including making our own decisions about what's moral, relevant, right, wrong, truth, untruth, etc. This is a dangerous way of thinking b/c then one could justify anything from lying to stealing to suicide to rape to murder to genocide, etc. The Nazis didn't believe in a higher power, for example, so it was easier to justify their acts by claiming that THEY were superior and no on else (including God) could tell them that was UNTRUE.
This is my big problem with the athiest/humanist way of thinking.
If people wanted to do evil things it will not matter what they believe.
People find reasons within the bible or koran to kill and rape everyday.
Religion is not good or bad it's what people make of it.
We don't need a book to tell us not to got out and start shooting people. We know that would not only hurt them, but all their loved ones.
nina

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#61
Nov 19, 2008
 
Lurker wrote:
<quoted text>
...
We don't need a book to tell us not to got out and start shooting people. We know that would not only hurt them, but all their loved ones.
but too often that religious book does say nonbelievers must be converted by the word or the sword

many religious people are not content to leave others to their own beleifs

even the current Pope seeks to unite all xtians under the Catholic banner

because apparently, they are not the right kind of xtian

islamic faith does require the deaths of non-adherants or anyone who converts away from islam

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