"Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think"

Jan 22, 2012 Full story: Examiner.com 13,514

It is fascinating to note that atheists boast that most scientists are atheists.

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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13658 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
Polymath is too afraid to answer these questions because he knows where I am leading him.
So we know Polymath will refuse to answer the simple questions, therefore I will just explain what I was leading him into.
1. three brothers are on Earth in the same rest frame
2. two of the brothers hop on a ship and accelerate to 0.5*c away form Earth (as Polymath has admitted, according to Einstein's relativity their proper time must always begin to tick slower than time on Earth)
Once again, the earth measures time for the twins as going slower, but the twins measure time for the earth as going slower. This is different than what you said.
3. the two brother on the ship still share the same rest frame
yes, which is different than the rest frame of the earth.
4. one brother on the ship hops into a shuttle and accelerates to 0.5*c towards Earth
5. the shuttle has entered into Earth's rest frame and is stationary relative to Earth, therefore the shuttle must now observe the same proper as observed on Earth
Each will measure the clock of the other as going the same rate. But the clocks will no longer be synchronized. The ship measures time for both the earth and shuttle as going slower than its own.
6. acceleration of the ship caused the ship's proper time rate to slow down
Here is where you are assuming an absolute time frame. The ships time slows down *with respect to the earth*. But the earths' time slows down *with respect to the ship*.
7. acceleration of the shuttle caused the shuttle's proper time rate to speed up
No, it did not. The ship sees time for both the earth and the shuttle as going slower. Both the earth and the shuttle see time for the ship as going slower. This is not a contradiction because the time measurements are for different positions each way.
8. Einstein's theory of relativity is shown to be false
No, you simply don't understand what it is predicting.

Do you want me to run the numbers for you? Do you mind if I use .6*c rather than .5*c since the time dilation factor is easier for .6*c?
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13660 Oct 22, 2012
polymath257 wrote:
Once again, the earth measures time for the twins as going slower, but the twins measure time for the earth as going slower. This is different than what you said.
Once again, no one on Earth can measure the proper time of the traveling twin, they can only measure Earth time. They will know the aging result of the traveling twin when he returns.
polymath257 wrote:
Each will measure the clock of the other as going the same rate. But the clocks will no longer be synchronized. The ship measures time for both the earth and shuttle as going slower than its own.
Once more, observers can only measure their own proper time. No one can measure the proper time of other frames.
polymath257 wrote:
Here is where you are assuming an absolute time frame.
WRONG. There are two frames in questions. Earth frame and the ship frame. The proper time is ticking slower in the ship frame. The shuttle accelerated from the ship frame to Earth frame. Thus acceleration caused the proper time rate of the shuttle to increase. They began to age faster after that acceleration.
polymath257 wrote:
The ships time slows down *with respect to the earth*. But the earths' time slows down *with respect to the ship*.
That is a paradox and can not happen in reality. If these are your supposed predictions, then one of these predictions will be falsified upon return to the same frame and therefore also the model is false.

The ship can not measure Earth's proper time, Earth can not measure the ship's proper time. They can only calculate theoretical predictions for their proper times.
polymath257 wrote:
Here is where you are assuming an absolute time frame. The ships time slows down *with respect to the earth*. But the earths' time slows down *with respect to the ship*.
We are talking about aging and observed proper times. What you insist on is a paradox and can not be verified through observable facts. You fail.
polymath257 wrote:
No, it did not. The ship sees time for both the earth and the shuttle as going slower. Both the earth and the shuttle see time for the ship as going slower. This is not a contradiction because the time measurements are for different positions each way.
Even once more:
It does not matter what they see, there is delay in the propagation of light and they can not observe the proper times of other frames than their own.

Stop falling back to your fallacies.
polymath257 wrote:
No, you simply don't understand what it is predicting.

Do you want me to run the numbers for you? Do you mind if I use .6*c rather than .5*c since the time dilation factor is easier for .6*c?
I can run all the numbers myself. You don't need to fall into your number fallacies again.

Do you understand that an observer can only measure his own proper time???
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13661 Oct 22, 2012
polymath257 wrote:
Your very question shows you don't know what proper time *means*.
Wrong. You constantly confuse coordinate time and proper time.

Proper time is what dictates aging. I am only talking about proper time here. I haven't made any mention relating to coordinate times and have been constantly specifically spoken about proper times.

Stop confusing proper time with coordinate time.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13662 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, no one on Earth can measure the proper time of the traveling twin, they can only measure Earth time. They will know the aging result of the traveling twin when he returns.
<quoted text>
Once more, observers can only measure their own proper time. No one can measure the proper time of other frames.
<quoted text>
WRONG. There are two frames in questions. Earth frame and the ship frame. The proper time is ticking slower in the ship frame. The shuttle accelerated from the ship frame to Earth frame. Thus acceleration caused the proper time rate of the shuttle to increase. They began to age faster after that acceleration.
<quoted text>
That is a paradox and can not happen in reality. If these are your supposed predictions, then one of these predictions will be falsified upon return to the same frame and therefore also the model is false.
The ship can not measure Earth's proper time, Earth can not measure the ship's proper time. They can only calculate theoretical predictions for their proper times.
<quoted text>
We are talking about aging and observed proper times. What you insist on is a paradox and can not be verified through observable facts. You fail.
<quoted text>
Even once more:
It does not matter what they see, there is delay in the propagation of light and they can not observe the proper times of other frames than their own.
Stop falling back to your fallacies.
<quoted text>
I can run all the numbers myself. You don't need to fall into your number fallacies again.
Do you understand that an observer can only measure his own proper time???
The only effect is dilation due to acceleration and or gravity to the clock at your location , if you have different clocks at different locations all will be ticking at the rate of dilation for each clock.(forget looking at the other clocks)
If one clock goes to another clocks location and is then under the same gravity and acceleration , they will both tick at the same rate but will show different times. Due to different dilation rates. With your scenario , all you have is three clocks
Earth/ship/shuttle. Due to different dilation rates you have 3 different times showing on their counts.

You have falsified nothing nor created a paradox.

humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13663 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
The only effect is dilation due to acceleration and or gravity to the clock at your location , if you have different clocks at different locations all will be ticking at the rate of dilation for each clock.(forget looking at the other clocks)
If one clock goes to another clocks location and is then under the same gravity and acceleration , they will both tick at the same rate but will show different times. Due to different dilation rates. With your scenario , all you have is three clocks
Earth/ship/shuttle. Due to different dilation rates you have 3 different times showing on their counts.
You have falsified nothing nor created a paradox.
Why do you confuse yourself with nonsense?

1. Two twins accelerate away from Earth and thus they begin to age slower (as compared to the stay-on-Earth bro). Yes?-Yes.

2. The two twins share the same rest frame on the ship, they age at the same rate relative to the stay-on-Earth bro.

3. One of the two twins accelerates from the ship towards Earth and thus he begins to age slower that the bro left on the ship. Yes?-No.

Thus, Einstein's relativity is VERY much falsified.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13664 Oct 22, 2012
And please don't misunderstand #2 to mean that all three age at the same rate. This is already explained not to be the case in #1...

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13665 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you confuse yourself with nonsense?
1. Two twins accelerate away from Earth and thus they begin to age slower (as compared to the stay-on-Earth bro). Yes?-Yes.
2. The two twins share the same rest frame on the ship, they age at the same rate relative to the stay-on-Earth bro.
3. One of the two twins accelerates from the ship towards Earth and thus he begins to age slower that the bro left on the ship. Yes?-No.
Thus, Einstein's relativity is VERY much falsified.
What you fail to understand is you have 3 clocks with 3 different ET's and that is all.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13666 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
What you fail to understand is you have 3 clocks with 3 different ET's and that is all.
What you fail to understand is that if the acceleration of the two brothers is equal in magnitude to the second acceleration of one of them THERE ARE THEN ONLY TWO RATES OF TIME TO BE OBSERVED. One brother is still on the ship traveling away from Earth, the other brother has returned to Earth's rest frame.

Do you understand this?

Now. Try to make a claim that all acceleration leads to slower rate of proper time with respect to the old rate in the frame from which the acceleration originated from.

You're plain and simple toast.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13667 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
What you fail to understand is that if the acceleration of the two brothers is equal in magnitude to the second acceleration of one of them THERE ARE THEN ONLY TWO RATES OF TIME TO BE OBSERVED. One brother is still on the ship traveling away from Earth, the other brother has returned to Earth's rest frame.
Do you understand this?
Now. Try to make a claim that all acceleration leads to slower rate of proper time with respect to the old rate in the frame from which the acceleration originated from.
You're plain and simple toast.
The only thing that changes is rate of each clock from the effect of dilation exerted on it.

clock 1 ship
clock 2 shuttle
clock 3 Earth

clock 1&2 leave Earth their clocks are slowed,
clock 2 leaves the ship and returns to Earth.

No it's plain and simple , when clock 2 returns to earth it's dilation rate returns to normal and you now have 3 different ET's on 3 different clocks.

Nothing is falsified , it is exactly as predicted by Lorentz.

Poly is very confusing switching back and forth explaining how each will see each others clock, but the end result is.....

3 clocks 3 different elapsed times. Nothing more nothing less.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13668 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
The only thing that changes is rate of each clock from the effect of dilation exerted on it.
clock 1 ship
clock 2 shuttle
clock 3 Earth
clock 1&2 leave Earth their clocks are slowed,
clock 2 leaves the ship and returns to Earth.
No it's plain and simple , when clock 2 returns to earth it's dilation rate returns to normal and you now have 3 different ET's on 3 different clocks.
Nothing is falsified , it is exactly as predicted by Lorentz.
Poly is very confusing switching back and forth explaining how each will see each others clock, but the end result is.....
3 clocks 3 different elapsed times. Nothing more nothing less.
Well there you have your paradox in your very own hands. One acceleration causes slower rate of ageing, another acceleration causes faster rate of ageing.

This renders the claim of the accelerating twin (twin paradox) ageing less pure nonsense.

You can not have it both ways. Either all acceleration results in slower rate of ageing or the solution to the twin paradox is false.

Those are your only options, you don't have any other options. You have now effectively argued that not all acceleration results in slower rate of ageing. Your sugar coding it with different terms does not help you at all. You still have the same problem in your hands.

Just utter the words. Does all acceleration lead into slower rate of ageing? Yes or no?

That is after all your claim as the solution for the twin paradox, otherwise you would have no way to determine how that acceleration affects the traveler.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13669 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Well there you have your paradox in your very own hands. One acceleration causes slower rate of ageing, another acceleration causes faster rate of ageing.
This renders the claim of the accelerating twin (twin paradox) ageing less pure nonsense.
You can not have it both ways. Either all acceleration results in slower rate of ageing or the solution to the twin paradox is false.
Those are your only options, you don't have any other options. You have now effectively argued that not all acceleration results in slower rate of ageing. Your sugar coding it with different terms does not help you at all. You still have the same problem in your hands.
Just utter the words. Does all acceleration lead into slower rate of ageing? Yes or no?
That is after all your claim as the solution for the twin paradox, otherwise you would have no way to determine how that acceleration affects the traveler.


Does all acceleration lead into slower rate of ageing?

This is a stupid question.
Get in your car and accelerate all day and see if you can shift the goal posts away from the old folks home.

The twin paradox is only a mind teaser anyway.

At the end of the day you will find that acceleration affects
the clock under it , while it is under it.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13670 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
Does all acceleration lead into slower rate of ageing?
This is a stupid question.
Get in your car and accelerate all day and see if you can shift the goal posts away from the old folks home.
The twin paradox is only a mind teaser anyway.
At the end of the day you will find that acceleration affects
the clock under it , while it is under it.
Stop whining. You are the one to make the claim that in the twin paradox the acceleration leads into slower ageing of the accelerating twin.

Is it possible that in some case acceleration could result in faster rate of ageing for the one who accelerates? Yes or no?

If you make the claim for the solution of the twin paradox YOU MUST BE ABLE TO PRODUCE A CLEAR ANSWER to this followup question.

It is already obvious that you can not produce a clear answer to the question. That is the reason for your religious ambiguity.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13671 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Stop whining. You are the one to make the claim that in the twin paradox the acceleration leads into slower ageing of the accelerating twin.
Is it possible that in some case acceleration could result in faster rate of ageing for the one who accelerates? Yes or no?
If you make the claim for the solution of the twin paradox YOU MUST BE ABLE TO PRODUCE A CLEAR ANSWER to this followup question.
It is already obvious that you can not produce a clear answer to the question. That is the reason for your religious ambiguity.
Acceleration slows time for the clock under it.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13672 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
Acceleration slows time for the clock under it.
In that case this is becomes a problem:

1. a ship accelerates away from Earth and begins to age slower than Earth

2. a shuttle accelerates away from that ship towards Earth and begins to age slower than that ship

3. if these accelerations are equal in magnitude the shuttle will be in the same rest frame with Earth, ageing considerably slower than Earth

And thus Einstein's relativity falsified again.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13673 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
3. if these accelerations are equal in magnitude the shuttle will be in the same rest frame with Earth, ageing considerably slower than
This should actually be formulated:
"the change in relative velocity is equal after both accelerations"

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13674 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
In that case this is becomes a problem:
1. a ship accelerates away from Earth and begins to age slower than Earth
2. a shuttle accelerates away from that ship towards Earth and begins to age slower than that ship
3. if these accelerations are equal in magnitude the shuttle will be in the same rest frame with Earth, ageing considerably slower than Earth
And thus Einstein's relativity falsified again.
You are confused , the time dilation is proportional to the acceleration curve , and the dilation only during the acceleration curve. Like I said 3 clocks with 3 different ET's is all you get.
You must have gotten dizzy shifting the goalposts around everywhere.
The only thing you falsify is the idea you know what the hell you are talking about. There is no acceleration curve that causes slower aging, maybe you can get that at the cosmetic department at what ever mall they have in Finland or Sweden or where ever it is you are.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#13675 Oct 22, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
You are confused , the time dilation is proportional to the acceleration curve , and the dilation only during the acceleration curve. Like I said 3 clocks with 3 different ET's is all you get.
You must have gotten dizzy shifting the goalposts around everywhere.
The only thing you falsify is the idea you know what the hell you are talking about. There is no acceleration curve that causes slower aging, maybe you can get that at the cosmetic department at what ever mall they have in Finland or Sweden or where ever it is you are.
You are again confusing yourself with coordinate time. We are talking about proper times and ageing. Assertions get you nowhere.

You have the shuttle in the rest frame (inside the moving ship) where proper time ticks slower than on Earth. To get to Earth's rest frame the shuttle has to accelerate away from the ship frame. Acceleration results in faster rate of time by necessity, otherwise the shuttle could never actually get back to Earth's rest frame.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#13676 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
You are again confusing yourself with coordinate time. We are talking about proper times and ageing. Assertions get you nowhere.
You have the shuttle in the rest frame (inside the moving ship) where proper time ticks slower than on Earth. To get to Earth's rest frame the shuttle has to accelerate away from the ship frame. Acceleration results in faster rate of time by necessity, otherwise the shuttle could never actually get back to Earth's rest frame.
Oh so what you actually mean is for the shuttle to return to Earth it has to go there. Sorry guy to get to Earths rest frame it has to go to Earth. You are confused about wth you are talking about.

This is not much different than the Apollo mission to the moon and back. Just say one part of the Saturn 5 kept going and one part returned. the 3 clocks will have different ET's for the duration
of of the mission. GR and SR have been confirmed in real world experiments, the LR or Lorentz equations (as poly has tried to show you) are the way to calculate it. You just love to deny science, but have no legs to stand on. I tried to get you to read how they have been confirmed in real world velocities by experiment
but you still persist. Here once again read how Einstein and Lorentz has been verified.

http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-rel...

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13677 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, no one on Earth can measure the proper time of the traveling twin, they can only measure Earth time. They will know the aging result of the traveling twin when he returns.
First, the earth can watch processes on the ship and vice versa. That can show that each sees time for the other moving slower.

If we can only compare ages when they have returned, your question about the ship, shuttle and earth is meaningless.
Once more, observers can only measure their own proper time. No one can measure the proper time of other frames.
And once again, they can watch what happens to the other systems and determine from that how fast time is 'moving' for them.
WRONG. There are two frames in questions. Earth frame and the ship frame. The proper time is ticking slower in the ship frame. The shuttle accelerated from the ship frame to Earth frame. Thus acceleration caused the proper time rate of the shuttle to increase. They began to age faster after that acceleration.
If they can only measure proper time when they are all together, then your ticking faster or slower is meaningless until they are all together. The result will then depend on the particulars of the velocities and accelerations of all concerned.
That is a paradox and can not happen in reality. If these are your supposed predictions, then one of these predictions will be falsified upon return to the same frame and therefore also the model is false.
You didn't ask about what they see when they all return to the same frame. You asked whether proper time is slowed. That isn't a meaningful question as stated: you either have to consider coordinate time or you have to bring everyone together again. Time dilation is all about coordinate time.
The ship can not measure Earth's proper time, Earth can not measure the ship's proper time. They can only calculate theoretical predictions for their proper times.
And the particulars of the trips are required to do that.
Do you understand that an observer can only measure his own proper time???
Do you understand this is simply wrong?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13678 Oct 22, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you confuse yourself with nonsense?
1. Two twins accelerate away from Earth and thus they begin to age slower (as compared to the stay-on-Earth bro). Yes?-Yes.
2. The two twins share the same rest frame on the ship, they age at the same rate relative to the stay-on-Earth bro.
3. One of the two twins accelerates from the ship towards Earth and thus he begins to age slower that the bro left on the ship. Yes?-No.
Thus, Einstein's relativity is VERY much falsified.
Here are several different scenarios. In all, the earth is unaccelerated:

1. Ship leaves the earth, moving at .6*c. After a period of time, the shuttle leaves the ship, accelerating until it is at rest with respect to the earth. After a further period of time, the ship accelerates, so that all are at rest with respect to the earth. At that point the clocks are all going the same rate, but the ships clock has shown the least time passing; the earth's clock the most; and the shuttle's something between those two. Aging: ship<shuttle<earth

2. The ship leaves the earth, moving at .6*c. After a while, the shuttle leaves the ship, accelerating until it is at rest with respect to the earth. Then it speeds up again, catching the ship. Finally, both the ship and the shuttle accelerate until they are both at rest with respect to the earth. Again, all clocks are running at the same rate, but now the shuttle shows the least time passing, the earth the most, and the ship somewhere in between. Aging: shuttle<ship<earth

3. The ship leaves the earth. After while the shuttle leaves the ship, turns around, and returns to earth. After a while longer, the ship turns around and returns to earth. When they are all together, the earth has aged the most, the ship the least, and the shuttle somewhere between. Aging: ship<shuttle<earth

4. The ship leaves the earth. After a while, the shuttle leaves the ship, accelerating to be at rest with respect to the earth. Then the shuttle accelerates back and catches the ship. Finally, the ship with the shuttle return to earth. In this case, the shuttle ages the least, the earth the most, and the ship between. Aging: shuttle<ship<earth.

In all cases, the earth ages the most. Whether the ship or the shuttle ages more depends on the particulars of the trips. If the shuttle leaves the ship, accelerates, and then returns to being at rest with respect to the ship, then the shuttle ages less than the ship overall. If the shuttle returns to the earth frame before the ship, then the ship ages less.

Yet another: suppose the ship has *two* shuttles, moves away from the earth. At some point, the two shuttles leave the ship and from the point of view of the ship accelerate away and return to the ship in a symmetric way. Then the three return to earth. In this case, the two shuttles will age the same amount, but that will be less than the ship. The earth will still age the least.

Do you want me to run some more scenarios? Remember, by your restrictions, we have to return them all to the same frame before we compare the amount of aging. We can't, by *your* rules, compare the rates of aging during the trips.(We can, of course, but this restriction does make the predictions clearer).

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