"Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think"

Jan 22, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Examiner.com

It is fascinating to note that atheists boast that most scientists are atheists.

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Since: Sep 08

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#13574
Oct 16, 2012
 
What is this nonsense about time dilation not being observed and measured? That was done long ago, today it is an everyday event. If you have a GPS the computer that calculates your position has to account for time dilation by the moving satellite, they are that accurate. If they did not correct for that there would be an ever increasing error in your location.

Instead of making ridiculous claims you might do a little Google searching. By the way, the accuracy of GPS has been high enough that they have had to correct for this for the last 15 years. This is not "breaking science":

http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#13575
Oct 16, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
This gets funnier and funnier. You don't realize that you are the one clinging to absolute time with (a)symmetry?
During the trip did the clock on the ship slower than clocks on Earth? Yes or no?
<quoted text>
You are the one claiming that acceleration is what decides who will be aging less (i.e. who's clock ticked slower).
Science only deals with observable/verifiable facts. Illusion of time dilation that can not be recorded is nonsense, NO OBSERVABLE/VERIFIABLE FACTS.
<quoted text>
Exactly. And your claim is that the one who experiences acceleration will also experience slower rate of time.
<quoted text>
Lets say that the shuttle accelerates back towards Earth. We already know that the clock on the ship is ticking slower relative to Earth because the ship accelerated.
Now the shuttle *accelerated* from the ship. How will its clock tick relative to:
1. the ship
2. Earth
???
"Science only deals with observable/verifiable facts. Illusion of time dilation that can not be recorded is nonsense, NO OBSERVABLE/VERIFIABLE FACTS."

You are quite confused between Theoretical Physics and Physics.

But much of Theoretical Physics is understood as being correct.

The effects have been proven,(insert comment here).

humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13577
Oct 17, 2012
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
What is this nonsense about time dilation not being observed and measured? That was done long ago, today it is an everyday event. If you have a GPS the computer that calculates your position has to account for time dilation by the moving satellite, they are that accurate. If they did not correct for that there would be an ever increasing error in your location.
Instead of making ridiculous claims you might do a little Google searching. By the way, the accuracy of GPS has been high enough that they have had to correct for this for the last 15 years. This is not "breaking science":
http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
You fail to understand.

In the twin paradox the relativistic model produces two predictions of time dilation. When the observable facts are observed it is noticed that the relativistic model has produced one falsified prediction and one accurate prediction. This is still hypothetical but real within the model. The model itself dictates that it must produce at least one falsified prediction and at most one good prediction.

What about the symmetrical situation then. Lo' and behold, the relativistic model produces two predictions of time dilation which are both falsified by the observation of the actual observable facts.

The relativistic model is truly total nonsense. It can not produce good predictions of proper time dilation, most of the predictions will fail and falsify the model. This fact is dictated by the model itself.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13578
Oct 17, 2012
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
"Science only deals with observable/verifiable facts. Illusion of time dilation that can not be recorded is nonsense, NO OBSERVABLE/VERIFIABLE FACTS."
You are quite confused between Theoretical Physics and Physics.
But much of Theoretical Physics is understood as being correct.
The effects have been proven,(insert comment here).
Some kind of time dilation is observed. Einstein's time dilation has not been "proven".

How do you distinguish Einstein's time dilation from different rates of electron spins dictated by the Classical Theory of Nonlinear Universal Relativity? Answer: You can not distinguish between the two.

As said above:
The relativistic model itself dictates that it will produce mostly failing predictions of time dilation. In the case of perfect symmetry the model fails totally, it can not produce a mathematical prediction of time dilation that would correspond with observable facts of reality.

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#13579
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
You fail to understand.
In the twin paradox the relativistic model produces two predictions of time dilation. When the observable facts are observed it is noticed that the relativistic model has produced one falsified prediction and one accurate prediction. This is still hypothetical but real within the model. The model itself dictates that it must produce at least one falsified prediction and at most one good prediction.
What about the symmetrical situation then. Lo' and behold, the relativistic model produces two predictions of time dilation which are both falsified by the observation of the actual observable facts.
The relativistic model is truly total nonsense. It can not produce good predictions of proper time dilation, most of the predictions will fail and falsify the model. This fact is dictated by the model itself.
No, it predicts only one prediction. Who ever told you that it would produce two? I would like to see a quote and a link please.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13580
Oct 17, 2012
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
No, it predicts only one prediction. Who ever told you that it would produce two? I would like to see a quote and a link please.
In the twin paradox the ageing of the two twins is the predictions.

Both twins will calculate a prediction of the other twin aging more during the trip of the space twin. The observation of the facts reveals that only one of them aged more and thus one prediction is falsified.

In the case of perfect symmetry both predictions are falsified.

Is science to you something that allows failing of predictions and the the failures just always need to be explained with something magical?

“Think&Care”

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#13581
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
This gets funnier and funnier. You don't realize that you are the one clinging to absolute time with (a)symmetry?
During the trip did the clock on the ship slower than clocks on Earth? Yes or no?
From which frame? In the frame of the ship, no. In the frame of the earth, yes. There is no absolute standard for time, so this answer depends on the frame n which the comparison is being done.
You are the one claiming that acceleration is what decides who will be aging less (i.e. who's clock ticked slower).
In a comparison between two ships that meet twice and only one accelerates, yes.
Science only deals with observable/verifiable facts. Illusion of time dilation that can not be recorded is nonsense, NO OBSERVABLE/VERIFIABLE FACTS.
Time dilation is an effect *between* two reference frames. This can be observed by comparing the results in two reference frames. This is done all the time when looking at decays of atomic particles, but it can also be measured using atomic clocks at ordinary speeds.
Exactly. And your claim is that the one who experiences acceleration will also experience slower rate of time.
How many times do I have to point out to you that there is no well-defined *rate of time*?
Lets say that the shuttle accelerates back towards Earth. We already know that the clock on the ship is ticking slower relative to Earth because the ship accelerated.
Now the shuttle *accelerated* from the ship. How will its clock tick relative to:
1. the ship
2. Earth
???
Please give the context within a single post. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the ship, the ship will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the earth, then the earth will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. But, the shuttle will also measure times on both the ship and the earth as running slower.

Another thing you seem to miss is the difference between time dilation in fly-bys and proper time in round trips. These are different, although connected concepts.

“Think&Care”

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#13582
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
In the twin paradox the ageing of the two twins is the predictions.
Both twins will calculate a prediction of the other twin aging more during the trip of the space twin.
Not if one accelerates, which is required if they will meet up again.
The observation of the facts reveals that only one of them aged more and thus one prediction is falsified.
In the case of perfect symmetry both predictions are falsified.
The predictions are not what you think they are. For symmetric acceleration, the prediction is equal aging. More precisely, if there is a third observer for whom the twins are moving at the same velocity at any time, then the ages will be the same when they meet again.
Is science to you something that allows failing of predictions and the the failures just always need to be explained with something magical?
Your lack of understanding of a model does not constitute falsification of the model.

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Everett, WA

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#13583
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
In the twin paradox the ageing of the two twins is the predictions.
Both twins will calculate a prediction of the other twin aging more during the trip of the space twin. The observation of the facts reveals that only one of them aged more and thus one prediction is falsified.
In the case of perfect symmetry both predictions are falsified.
Is science to you something that allows failing of predictions and the the failures just always need to be explained with something magical?
That is wrong. I have never seen the Twin Paradox put forth this way. Again, find a source or admit that you misunderstood it. Every version that I have seen has the Earth twin aging more than the space twin:
In physics, the twin paradox is a thought experiment in special relativity involving identical twins, one of which makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket and returns home to find that the twin who remained on Earth has aged more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox

There, I provided a source and quote from that source. Only the twin at home ages faster. You misunderstood the Twin Paradox to start out with. You will not find a proper source that uses your strange convoluted "both twins age more" claim.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13584
Oct 17, 2012
 
polymath257 wrote:
From which frame? In the frame of the ship, no. In the frame of the earth, yes. There is no absolute standard for time, so this answer depends on the frame n which the comparison is being done.
This is about the observation of the REAL FACTS after the experiment. When they compare their clocks.

Stop confusing yourself with the illusion of time dilation which can never be observed and verified. A good example of this illusion of yours is the twin paradox. The stay-at-home twin will predict that the travelling twin ages more. Alas, his prediction is falsified.
polymath257 wrote:
Time dilation is an effect *between* two reference frames. This can be observed by comparing the results in two reference frames. This is done all the time when looking at decays of atomic particles, but it can also be measured using atomic clocks at ordinary speeds.
Time dilation of proper times can only be observed by two observers by sharing the same rest frame twice and one/both having accelerations between.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO OBSERVE TIME DILATION OF OBSERVED PROPER TIMES.
polymath257 wrote:
How many times do I have to point out to you that there is no well-defined *rate of time*?
Of course there is and you must have, otherwise you can make no predictions at all. Each object/observer has their own rate of time. Two observers can compare their times by joining into one single rest frame. Joining into two separate rest frames they can compare their average rates of time that occurred between those two frames when they were in separate rest frames.
polymath257 wrote:
Please give the context within a single post. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the ship, the ship will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the earth, then the earth will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. But, the shuttle will also measure times on both the ship and the earth as running slower.

Another thing you seem to miss is the difference between time dilation in fly-bys and proper time in round trips. These are different, although connected concepts.
How many times do I have to tell you that AN OBSERVER IN ONE FRAME CAN NOT MEASURE TIME FOR AN OBSERVER IN ANOTHER FRAME. They can predict their times and this is where the relativistic model fails miserably. The observers end up making contradicting predictions of times for each other and when the facts are observed one or both predictions are falsified.

I'll write a separate post about the experiment...
humble brother

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#13585
Oct 17, 2012
 

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polymath257 wrote:
Please give the context within a single post. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the ship, the ship will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. If the shuttle is moving with respect to the earth, then the earth will measure time on the shuttle as running slower. But, the shuttle will also measure times on both the ship and the earth as running slower.
Again...

1. A ship accelerates from Earth to reach 0.5*c velocity. The established fact is that the PROPER TIME on the ship will begin ticking slower than on Earth due to the acceleration.

2. Then a shuttle accelerates out from the cargo hold of the ship towards Earth to reach 0.5*c velocity relative to the ship. The established fact is that the PROPER TIME on the shuttle will begin ticking slower than on the ship due to the acceleration.

3. The shuttle is now in the rest frame with Earth but apparently its time is ticking slower than on the ship and therefore much slower than on Earth.

There is no escape from this paradox for you, EXCEPT TO GENERATE ABSOLUTE TIME and in fact say that the PROPER TIME on the shuttle will begin to tick faster and on the ship even though it is the shuttle that accelerates.

The relativistic model fails miserably.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13586
Oct 17, 2012
 
polymath257 wrote:
Not if one accelerates, which is required if they will meet up again.
<quoted text>
The predictions are not what you think they are. For symmetric acceleration, the prediction is equal aging. More precisely, if there is a third observer for whom the twins are moving at the same velocity at any time, then the ages will be the same when they meet again.
<quoted text>
Your lack of understanding of a model does not constitute falsification of the model.
I find your religious ambiguity hilarious.

Only proper times (and their average rates between two space-time points) can be scientifically tested/verified.

Stop babbling about someone measuring time for someone else in a different frame. No one can measure time for other frames. You constantly confuse prediction and actual measurement.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13587
Oct 17, 2012
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
That is wrong. I have never seen the Twin Paradox put forth this way. Again, find a source or admit that you misunderstood it. Every version that I have seen has the Earth twin aging more than the space twin:<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
There, I provided a source and quote from that source. Only the twin at home ages faster. You misunderstood the Twin Paradox to start out with. You will not find a proper source that uses your strange convoluted "both twins age more" claim.
You are very confused.

Does the stay-at-home twin predict that his brother will age more? Answer: YES.

Does the traveling brother predict that his brother will age more? Answer: YES.

Even hypothetically the model produces at least one prediction that fails miserably and is falsified when the facts are observed.

Is this something you can ever comprehend? Or will you just cling to your religious reasoning?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

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#13588
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
You are very confused.
Does the stay-at-home twin predict that his brother will age more? Answer: YES.
Does the traveling brother predict that his brother will age more? Answer: YES.
Even hypothetically the model produces at least one prediction that fails miserably and is falsified when the facts are observed.
Is this something you can ever comprehend? Or will you just cling to your religious reasoning?
Good morning, just stopped in to say 'Hi'.

Are you rehashing one of your old crank theories or pandering a totally new crank theory?

God bless you.
humble brother

Vanda, Finland

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#13589
Oct 17, 2012
 
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
Good morning, just stopped in to say 'Hi'.
Are you rehashing one of your old crank theories or pandering a totally new crank theory?
God bless you.
Hi there old buddy! How have you been?

I can understand if you feel a bit depressed watching the walls caving in on you... You must understand that it is only for the better, reason and logic must destroy religious clinging to magic.

"God" is a three letter word to which people seem to assign multiple meanings. Which "god" are you talking about?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

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#13590
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi there old buddy! How have you been?
I can understand if you feel a bit depressed watching the walls caving in on you... You must understand that it is only for the better, reason and logic must destroy religious clinging to magic.
"God" is a three letter word to which people seem to assign multiple meanings. Which "god" are you talking about?
I'm talking about the God that has beautiful age appropriate chicks falling over each other to sit next to me at church.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#13591
Oct 17, 2012
 
KittenKoder

Leichhardt, Australia

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#13592
Oct 17, 2012
 
This shows that there is a God, the only original creator
http://www.ucg.org/god-science/prove-there-go...

“Think&Care”

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#13593
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
Stop confusing yourself with the illusion of time dilation which can never be observed and verified. A good example of this illusion of yours is the twin paradox. The stay-at-home twin will predict that the travelling twin ages more. Alas, his prediction is falsified.
If the stay-at-home twin does not accelerate, then they will predict the traveling twin to age *less*, not more.
Time dilation of proper times can only be observed by two observers by sharing the same rest frame twice and one/both having accelerations between.
Remember this when you ask about whether clocks are ticking slower or faster.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO OBSERVE TIME DILATION OF OBSERVED PROPER TIMES.
Not true, of course. Simply look at the clock of the other ship. measure how fast it ticks compared to yours.
Of course there is and you must have, otherwise you can make no predictions at all. Each object/observer has their own rate of time. Two observers can compare their times by joining into one single rest frame.
This is not the only way to compare frames! Simply *look* at what is happening to the other ship. Watch their clock and determine how fast it is clicking. Take into account the speed of light if you wish.
Joining into two separate rest frames they can compare their average rates of time that occurred between those two frames when they were in separate rest frames.
The phrase 'rates of time between two frames when they were in separate rest frames' is non-sensical and shows your lack of understanding of the terms used.
How many times do I have to tell you that AN OBSERVER IN ONE FRAME CAN NOT MEASURE TIME FOR AN OBSERVER IN ANOTHER FRAME.
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it is still wrong. Simply *look* at the clocks in the other frame. Look at processes going on in the other ship and measure them with *your* devices.
They can predict their times and this is where the relativistic model fails miserably. The observers end up making contradicting predictions of times for each other and when the facts are observed one or both predictions are falsified.
I'll write a separate post about the experiment...
Again, you don't understand what the theory actually predicts.

“Think&Care”

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#13594
Oct 17, 2012
 
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Again...
1. A ship accelerates from Earth to reach 0.5*c velocity. The established fact is that the PROPER TIME on the ship will begin ticking slower than on Earth due to the acceleration.
*sigh* No. The acceleration in this case (because they are not meeting up again), is irrelevant. Only the relative velocity is relevant. And both will measure the clocks of the other as going slower. There is no absolute standard by which proper time goes faster or slower.
2. Then a shuttle accelerates out from the cargo hold of the ship towards Earth to reach 0.5*c velocity relative to the ship. The established fact is that the PROPER TIME on the shuttle will begin ticking slower than on the ship due to the acceleration.
Once again, the acceleration here is not relevant because we are not talking about meeting more than once. So the only way to compare is by measuring the rates of things on the earth, ship, and shuttle. In this situation, the relative speed of the shuttle with respect to the ship is .5*c, so both see the clocks of the other as running slower. BUT, the relative speed of the shuttle and the earth is zero, so the shuttle and the earth see their clocks as running the same rate. However, the clocks will no longer be synchronized because of the time when the shuttle was moving along with the rocket. The clock on the shuttle will be behind that of the earth (while now running at the same rate).
3. The shuttle is now in the rest frame with Earth but apparently its time is ticking slower than on the ship and therefore much slower than on Earth.
And this is an incorrect conclusion. Once again, there is no standard for time where one is ticking faster or slower. There is only comparison between measured time values between events.
There is no escape from this paradox for you, EXCEPT TO GENERATE ABSOLUTE TIME and in fact say that the PROPER TIME on the shuttle will begin to tick faster and on the ship even though it is the shuttle that accelerates.
The relativistic model fails miserably.
A more interesting variant is obtained as follows:

Ship 1 moves away from the earth at .5*c. After a while, a shuttle leaves the ship and starts to move away at .5*c in the opposite direction from the ship. After a while longer the ship accelerates (decelerates) to be at rest with respect to the earth. Now all three (earth, shuttle, ship) are at rest with respect to each other. Which has aged less? Answer: the ship has aged the least, the shuttle has aged more and the earth the most.

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