Israel means 'struggle with God'

May 30, 2012 Full story: The Jewish Journal 54

Years ago, a Muslim woman called my radio show and asked me why I was not a Muslim. She asked this question with complete sincerity, and I answered her with equal sincerity.

The name of her religion, I told her, is Islam, which in Arabic means submission (to God). The name of the Jewish people is Israel, which in Hebrew means struggle with God. Id rather struggle with God, I said, than only submit to God ... Full Story

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#24 Jun 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
In all those verses yahweh is tried/tested. i think you have to read with more understanding as to why the law as in torah was so important:
Psalm 19:7,The Torah of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul. In this verse the word
for converting is the Hebrew phrase shuv which means to turn, return, refresh, restore, and reverse.[ also redemption and atonement can be understood in that same way as in turning someone away from doing the wrong thing, or as community taking that responsibility.]
When YHWH revealed the Ten Commandments He was in essence establishing the basic requirements of
mankind that can either redeem a person or condemn them as guilty before YHWH. The Torah was given
to set the standard for righteous living.I had not known sin but by the law, Romans 7:7. The Torah itself
is not sinful but acts as an agent to reveal a person's sin. A person sins when they disobey the words of the
Bible.Sin is transgression of the law / Torah,
We see g-d and than people acting as judges applying the law and finding no fault, but they can have trouble understanding why a certain law was instated or how to interprete it.
One is not supposed to take away from the law or change it, but entirely free to add or find circumstances that make for a graver judgement or a lighter judgement, or to even state that verses would cancel each other out.
Like a constitution thus or a federal law, super-lex if you will.
Stories are there to make clear what consequences action can have.
During the Jehudite state forming priest went a bit overboard and some will question (and none forbids them) if those verses where truly from g-d.
Try and put a word edge-wise about jesus sayings or mohahmeds utterances and all hell breaks loose.
because they are indeed based on reading that god is perfect and not understanding that The Law is a main component in that statement.
Elohim-judges forming ONE that are then redevided again. Elohim still often occurs always in the use of judges. Several other words point in that similar direction.
Such a beautiful post. Not all edge words are so bad. But even Moses treated people respectfully, even when the ground opened up for his enemies that contested him. NOW I understand what someone meant when he told me Jesus had the right to speak as he did. We necessarily do not have the same right. of course, I can do some things. But should I? Like Satan tempted Jesus ... jump off the cliff...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#25 Jun 1, 2012
NotQuiter wrote:
<quoted text>
Such a beautiful post. Not all edge words are so bad. But even Moses treated people respectfully, even when the ground opened up for his enemies that contested him. NOW I understand what someone meant when he told me Jesus had the right to speak as he did. We necessarily do not have the same right. of course, I can do some things. But should I? Like Satan tempted Jesus ... jump off the cliff...
Uhh care to run that by me again nonquiter. Your welcome enthousiasm makes it a bit hard to follow what you mean.
I think jesus a rudeboy -tu quoque, taking liberties- so to say, that also made the law redundant to let roman law vigorate.
In the old version Codices sinaiticus and vaticanus, you could read that better things were in store for people if they stuck to yhvh. So why could you not represent that, without dragging medieval satan in it?

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#26 Jun 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhh care to run that by me again nonquiter. Your welcome enthousiasm makes it a bit hard to follow what you mean.
I think jesus a rudeboy -tu quoque, taking liberties- so to say, that also made the law redundant to let roman law vigorate.
In the old version Codices sinaiticus and vaticanus, you could read that better things were in store for people if they stuck to yhvh. So why could you not represent that, without dragging medieval satan in it?
I don't know what you're talking about. If you think Jesus was rude, well, many comments are ruder. And what is rude anyway? Profanity doesn't do the game well. I did enjoy your post until the end when you got your licks in.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#27 Jun 1, 2012
Not all edge words are so bad.

http://www.morewords.com/contains/edge/
Quite usefull i'ld say, though some would give one a headache in constructing a sentense around them. ;)

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#28 Jun 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
Not all edge words are so bad.
http://www.morewords.com/contains/edge/
Quite usefull i'ld say, though some would give one a headache in constructing a sentense around them. ;)
:-) I'm not looking at the site, though, maybe there will be "bad" words there.:-) but you made me smile anyway even before and without looking.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#29 Jun 1, 2012
We got it worked out i hope:)
Even though it takes two lines to do it.

BMZ makes a lot of posts looking at tu-quoques of jesus. He get's invited for dinner and very rudely offends his host.
Totally unnecessary in our understanding of eastern hospitality.
Or he brushes people of without giving an answer, followed by a lecture on the bad jews, directed to the reader.
So when people speak of the loving jesus to be emulated we get faced with a serious dilemma.
Same by the way if it would be Aisha or Moahmed.(Which is also a barb to the ahmed-comforter, they claim is not jesus, and where Mohammed got inserted)
I'm frank and honest with you on the greek translation, and you fly up the wall. ;)
Jesus is the anti-thesis of all YHVH stated.
Reading the discussions of the church-fathers helps in understanding how the gospel got worded like that.
In the same way all rethinking, finding different explanations, looking at history, helps in getting a better understanding, no matter what the religion.
Edge words i consider to be propaganda or risidual resentment or pre-judice or unfinished business as in a curtailed discussion. In the latter case it functions as a reminder that hostilities could be resumed at any moment if the person does not mitigate it's language.
And with some it's just plain discarding of their position.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#30 Jun 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
We got it worked out i hope:)
Even though it takes two lines to do it.
BMZ makes a lot of posts looking at tu-quoques of jesus. He get's invited for dinner and very rudely offends his host.
Totally unnecessary in our understanding of eastern hospitality.
Or he brushes people of without giving an answer, followed by a lecture on the bad jews, directed to the reader.
So when people speak of the loving jesus to be emulated we get faced with a serious dilemma.
Same by the way if it would be Aisha or Moahmed.(Which is also a barb to the ahmed-comforter, they claim is not jesus, and where Mohammed got inserted)
I'm frank and honest with you on the greek translation, and you fly up the wall. ;)
Jesus is the anti-thesis of all YHVH stated.
Reading the discussions of the church-fathers helps in understanding how the gospel got worded like that.
In the same way all rethinking, finding different explanations, looking at history, helps in getting a better understanding, no matter what the religion.
Edge words i consider to be propaganda or risidual resentment or pre-judice or unfinished business as in a curtailed discussion. In the latter case it functions as a reminder that hostilities could be resumed at any moment if the person does not mitigate it's language.
And with some it's just plain discarding of their position.
he was speaking of bad teachers just as Jeremiah and other prophets prior to him did. look you are evidently smarter than I am and quite frankly your speech is of the elevated kind and with all your obvious learning I will stay low.:-) you are far superior and I accept that when I question I often seem to miss the answer. as for dinner guests rabbis and teachers some offer pointed info sometimes

“Google Operation Northwoods”

Since: Aug 10

** 9-11 was an inside job **

#31 Jun 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
Not all edge words are so bad.
http://www.morewords.com/contains/edge/
Quite usefull i'ld say, though some would give one a headache in constructing a sentense around them. ;)
So do you actually believe Jacob wrestled with God?
Old Pom

Australia

#32 Jun 1, 2012
Joe DeCaro wrote:
from The Jewish Journal:
"It is difficult to overstate the importance of this Jewish concept. For one thing, it enabled Jews to believe in the importance of reason God Himself could be challenged on the basis of reason and morality; one does not have to suspend reason to be a believing Jew ..."
... but one must suspend reason to be a believing muslim.
Agree.

To advance one must question, think, and challenge.
Perhaps that is why the jews make up a disproportionate part of the intelligentsia.

“Google Operation Northwoods”

Since: Aug 10

** 9-11 was an inside job **

#33 Jun 1, 2012
Old Pom wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree.
To advance one must question, think, and challenge.
Perhaps that is why the jews make up a disproportionate part of the intelligentsia.
They also made up the false doctrine the Talmud.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#34 Jun 2, 2012
Timesten wrote:
<quoted text>
So do you actually believe Jacob wrestled with God?
It's a metaphore. Ideas to convey the culture and believes of a people. Which does not in any way shape or form diminishes it's reality. Literalism can however.
Or when people suddenly start projecting.
As if what queen victoria once wrote means that piracy on the high-seas will be reinstated.
What the name conveys and the surrounding world is more important.
Ugarit qa(ha)nan
qny-to establish
qn-reed shaft

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#35 Jun 2, 2012
Timesten wrote:
<quoted text>
They also made up the false doctrine the Talmud.
tsss, you must be one of those that only read badly redacted( for a reason) excerpts instead of reading the full legal arguement, pro-and contra. darn hard given the archaic language.
But i get rather tired correcting people because they can't read and be patient enough, and understand enough to read the whole.
It becomes really annoying if they redacted it to feed their prejudice and i have to find the actual legal arguement.
Times do change and we can be darn happy the law did too here in the west. Law evolves with societies, it's not congealed.
Thus your understanding must be?

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#36 Jun 2, 2012
Jeremiah called on all, and thus the close connection.
YHVH tsidqenu. Everything promised in the name, with the name and to the name=a banner and reason thus YHVH establish/righteousness. Also as justice.
Do what is right for the people, land and g-d.
Rise up for right(eousness in the name) of YHWH.
Called upon by the authority...memra-the metatron.
And Tsidqenu has a component of sisters called to battle as does yhvh in the aspect of warlord.
Zedekiah proved unwilling.

We find the name Ykb as well as Mss in ugarit and Egypt.(scarabs are hard to date) but we might venture a guess that at some point kanaan became his to share with YHVH.
Kahanan would have the notion of iron-workers. Kain.
Ahram if i recall correctly, those providing/merchants of the ore.
And once a merger of these groups or gradually.

“Google Operation Northwoods”

Since: Aug 10

** 9-11 was an inside job **

#37 Jun 2, 2012
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a metaphore. Ideas to convey the culture and believes of a people. Which does not in any way shape or form diminishes it's reality. Literalism can however.
This story is a metaphor eh? According to the Ju's it really happened...
Jacob Wrestles With God
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
.
and it says he was dreaming of wrestling with a man not God.
But then he says this also...
Genesis 32:22-32
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying,It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.
.
Another one claiming to see God face to face...
.
Yet we have this...
https://www.google.com/search...
Tia

Kansas City, MO

#38 Jun 2, 2012
implementing the Torah is what they are struggling/rebellious/contenti ous/disobedient about, their rabbis making up all kinds of excuses and "evolution" to the Law,

God to Amos: The rebellion of Judah, they have rejected the Torah of YHWH and have not kept His commandments (Amos 2:4)

Jesus to pharisees: You void the commandments of God on account of the tradition of your elders. Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, you take the precepts of men instead as commandments (Matt 15:3, Mark 7:8)

Stephen to sanhedrin: You are just like your fathers, who have received the Law but have not kept it (Acts 7:53)

Paul: They only brag about having the Law (Rom 2:23), but do not keep the Law themselves (Gal 6:13) lol

Quran: The likeness of those entrusted with the Torah but do not uphold it, is like a donkey merely carrying books (62:5)

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#39 Jun 2, 2012
Old Pom wrote:
... To advance one must question, think, and challenge.
Perhaps that is why the jews make up a disproportionate part of the intelligentsia.
Compare the number of disproportionate Jewish Nobel prize winners to that of Arab winners.

Or is that Arab winner?
Jinn Martini

Pittsfield, MA

#40 Jun 2, 2012
Tia wrote:
implementing the Torah is what they are struggling/rebellious/contenti ous/disobedient about, their rabbis making up all kinds of excuses and "evolution" to the Law,
God to Amos: The rebellion of Judah, they have rejected the Torah of YHWH and have not kept His commandments (Amos 2:4)
Jesus to pharisees: You void the commandments of God on account of the tradition of your elders. Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, you take the precepts of men instead as commandments (Matt 15:3, Mark 7:8)
Stephen to sanhedrin: You are just like your fathers, who have received the Law but have not kept it (Acts 7:53)
Paul: They only brag about having the Law (Rom 2:23), but do not keep the Law themselves (Gal 6:13) lol
Quran: The likeness of those entrusted with the Torah but do not uphold it, is like a donkey merely carrying books (62:5)
Well said Tia...I agree
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#41 Jun 2, 2012
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Compare the number of disproportionate Jewish Nobel prize winners to that of Arab winners.
Or is that Arab winner?
Are you contrasting Jewish persons with Arab persons, or with people who believe in Islam? or people from predominantly Islamic countries, who have not explicitly denied their faith? Also, you seem to disregard the period of history when the West and Christianity were in the Dark Ages, and many of the wise accomplishments of ancient Greeks were preserved by Arab peoples. Nobel is fairly recent. Do you know about the prize awarded to M. Unis, and his lending bank of microloans? want to compare that to the profiteering and usury and manipulations of many many very rich and very crooked Jewish bankers? not to say all of them, but many? just to even out the playing field here a bit. I do not have any admiration for either religion or for the policies of any of the nations involved.
Old Pom

Australia

#42 Jun 2, 2012
Timesten wrote:
<quoted text>
They also made up the false doctrine the Talmud.
Whether or not the Talmud was invented is irrelevant.
What does matter is that islam effectively prohibits independent thinking or questioning. If this were allowed it would effectively expose islam for what it is and destroy it.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#43 Jun 2, 2012
Old Pom wrote:
<quoted text>
Whether or not the Talmud was invented is irrelevant.
What does matter is that islam effectively prohibits independent thinking or questioning. If this were allowed it would effectively expose islam for what it is and destroy it.
Other religions allow independent thinking yet have many adherents. It is true, it is a bit more dangerous, shall we say, for a confirmed Muslim to leave the faith, but for that he would have to totally rely upon God.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Atheism requires as much faith as religion? (Jul '09) 11 min Dave Nelson 228,571
Our world came from nothing? 1 hr _Bad Company 705
The Dumbest Thing Posted by a Godbot (Jun '10) 8 hr Dally Mama 5,587
Heaven 10 hr susanblange 2
Another week, another atheist demands we call h... 12 hr Patrick 7
Atheists forgetting the meaning of freedom 12 hr Patrick 152
The Ultimate Evidence of God (Mar '14) 20 hr Patrick 140

Atheism People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE