Don't dictate beliefs

Don't dictate beliefs

There are 11177 comments on the The Star Press story from Sep 5, 2012, titled Don't dictate beliefs. In it, The Star Press reports that:

No one else can say otherwise? That is basically saying those who do "believe in God" are better? Hardly.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Star Press.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#10847 Jan 10, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Oh and as a follow up I have noticed many non believers hide away from the term atheist even though they are without theism. Often they at some point cite negative traits associated with the term atheist that are by the way placed on the term by theists. Or how a theist may perhaps be offended by someone calling themselves an atheist. Why should I care about their bigotry? That is their issue not mine.
Well said.

It's time to put the theists on the defensive. They have defined us as untrustworthy, morally unfit, and the cause of all that is bad:

"Pope Blames Atheists for Holocaust, Ignores Catholic Complicity"
http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/09/21/pope-bl...

To be honest, I resent the hell out of that, and would like to return the favor. We define ourselves now, not them. And I predict that as our numbers swell further, we will be defining them as well. Look at how we've handled Dim in this thread in his attempt to derogate science. He's been made the thread's dunce and chew toy. That's a good model for how to threat an overtly contemptuous and disrespectful theist - return it tenfold, and with righteous indignation.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#10848 Jan 10, 2013
Lil Ticked wrote:
The term reality can be a confusing thing.
http://www.newscientist.com/special/reality
Thanks for that.

I would have liked to have read more from those articles on the meaning of "reality," but it was a subscription service, and only provided a few paragraphs.

Another poster and I addressed that issue only a few months ago:
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE...

Since: Mar 11

United States

#10849 Jan 10, 2013
Perhaps a very small minority of them but the fact is the term agnostic is a far more palatable proposition for the theists than an atheist. The agnostic almost cries to them to convince them of their knowledge of Jesus for example by proselytizing. The atheist comes right out and says I don't believe in the magic beans you are selling so to speak and that rubs them raw.

I find it interesting how you have people all over the spectrum arguing with atheists to stop calling themselves atheists! I mean does anyone tell and argue with Christians, Jews, Hindus, even agnostics, hell pick a group it doesn't matter, to stop calling themselves that and even devise these long winded arguments as to why they aren't a (insert any of the above and more labels)?

Nope. You see Christian and agnostic use the exact same, can you prove 100% that God doesn't exist, argument. Well errrr if you can't then you really ain't an atheist or you just as much a fundamentalist as the Pope! Lol! As if the person who doesn't fall for a pyramid scam and tells the huckster trying to sell it they don't believe they will really double their money each day, is now obligated to prove 100% it doesn't work? That's basically what people who use that argument are saying. It's just so silly.

So much anger and arguing just because someone says, hey I have looked at the facts and realize the notion of there being deities is an unproven proposition so guess what? I'm not buying/believing it so hey I'm an atheist.

Again let me say I could care less what term a non believer choses to use if any. They could call themselves reason rock stars and it's all good to me! But if they are shying away from te term atheism because of the negative attributes theists wish to place on the term then they are in fact allowing the theist to a degree control them. And if I wanted to allow a theist to have control over me I would just return to my family's baptist church and at least get some awesome grub for it :)

Btw you may want to avoid new scientist as they at times rely a bit to heavily on opinion pieces and personal philosophy pieces not to mention their sanctimonious issues like ( Darwin was wrong!) amongst others.
Lil Ticked wrote:
<quoted text>I find that some theists dislike agnostics just as much as they dislike atheists. That issue doesn't matter much. To most if you don't follow a religion you are an atheist.
The term reality can be a confusing thing.
http://www.newscientist.com/special/reality
http://www.bowperson.com/309BrainScienceWeb.p...
http://uwf.edu/wmikulas/Webpage/learning/intr...

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#10850 Jan 10, 2013
Lil Ticked wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, I know that is not entirely true. When I first came to Topix I was a full on believer working on becoming a pastor but, my encounters on here with certain posters swayed me considerably. They would post links, hit certain talking points and ask me questions. I listened to what they had to say, read their posted articles, and learned. During that time I also noticed that there are those that do nothing but abuse, from either side. I admit I was a noob to the interwebs blah blah blah.. long story short.. I learned two things. Yes, I am a skeptic but, I still find the history/ anthropology behind religious beliefs interesting, though not as much as I used to, and I dislike narrow minded douche bags.
Good to know. And congratulations to you for tunneling out of that concrete cocoon.

I've never read what you posted from any other poster. I really didn't think that there was even one believer that was influenced by the posts from skeptics.

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#10851 Jan 10, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for that.
I would have liked to have read more from those articles on the meaning of "reality," but it was a subscription service, and only provided a few paragraphs.
Another poster and I addressed that issue only a few months ago:
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TOCO8TE...
Yeah, sorry about that. It is just that it has the most articles and perspectives than the other sources that I found.

Since: Mar 11

United States

#10852 Jan 10, 2013
Nicely said and awesome quote. I can foresee me using that one :)
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with you that it is dishonest to misrepresent yourself.
Furthermore, my priority on that matter would be to promote the use of the label "atheist" with skeptics reluctant to use it than it would be to choose language more to the liking of the Christian.
The very word "atheist" has been derogated by the Christians for eons. And as we see, drones like Dim work tirelessly to derogate atheism and science, often using religious words of all things, such as calling atheism a religion. So, my focus is to help reverse that, and put the offending theist on the defensive instead. Here's a nice quote regarding that matter:
“I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out,“Atheism is just another kind of faith,” because it’s a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you’ve succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it’s time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes.”- Amanda Marcotte

Since: Mar 11

United States

#10853 Jan 10, 2013
It's well past time. We see as you have shown here from the top to the bottom how they wish to label us in this atrocious negative light. That is why I say that I personally refuse to allow them to frame the debate any longer or control me.

Religion and philosophers have tried and failed miserably to present a logical acceptable case for the existence of deities. They rely, even demand that the person self delude themselves and abandon reason. I refuse to give anyone that amount of control over me, I just ain't buying it so call me an atheist. ;)
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Well said.
It's time to put the theists on the defensive. They have defined us as untrustworthy, morally unfit, and the cause of all that is bad:
"Pope Blames Atheists for Holocaust, Ignores Catholic Complicity"
http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/09/21/pope-bl...
To be honest, I resent the hell out of that, and would like to return the favor. We define ourselves now, not them. And I predict that as our numbers swell further, we will be defining them as well. Look at how we've handled Dim in this thread in his attempt to derogate science. He's been made the thread's dunce and chew toy. That's a good model for how to threat an overtly contemptuous and disrespectful theist - return it tenfold, and with righteous indignation.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#10854 Jan 10, 2013
KJV wrote:
<quoted text>Look at what they believe with out any proof at all.

Big Bang
Spontaneous Life
Evolution
That there is no God.
That they are right.

LMAO.
Loads of evidence, though.

You being one piece.
Adam

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#10855 Jan 10, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Religion and philosophers have tried and failed miserably to present a logical acceptable case for the existence of deities. They rely, even demand that the person self delude themselves and abandon reason. <quoted text>
I think the best case made for theism is the appearance of design. However all this *proves* is that things looked designed.

It does not explain whether it is God/s who did the creating or multiple gods, or an infallible god, or an imperfect god, a good god or a bad one.

I think a common error by theists if they say nature looks designed, so this means that Christianity, and all that entails must be true. Which of course is faulty logic. And in addition of course evolution explains the development of complex creatures from simple ones by natural causes. Your thoughts?

Since: Mar 11

United States

#10856 Jan 10, 2013
I think you pretty much answered your own question. I will merely add if there was a design or designer it is a piss poor design in several ways so I wouldn't be using this ultra weak argument were I arguing for the possibility of deities. Seeing something that we perceive as beautiful and then chalking that up to a possible deity is almost as weak and plugging in a deity for something we don't know.

Say a child in your famiy took a math test and was presented with a tricky word problem and this child wrote God as the answer, would that be acceptable in even a catholic school? Lol!

If not then it is unacceptable for adults to use this when they don't know something.
Adam wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the best case made for theism is the appearance of design. However all this *proves* is that things looked designed.
It does not explain whether it is God/s who did the creating or multiple gods, or an infallible god, or an imperfect god, a good god or a bad one.
I think a common error by theists if they say nature looks designed, so this means that Christianity, and all that entails must be true. Which of course is faulty logic. And in addition of course evolution explains the development of complex creatures from simple ones by natural causes. Your thoughts?
Bob

Ashburn, VA

#10857 Jan 10, 2013
I need more beer anyone have any?

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#10858 Jan 10, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Oh and as a follow up I have noticed many non believers hide away from the term atheist even though they are without theism. Often they at some point cite negative traits associated with the term atheist that are by the way placed on the term by theists. Or how a theist may perhaps be offended by someone calling themselves an atheist. Why should I care about their bigotry? That is their issue not mine.
Now in the end I could care less if a non believer calls themselves a super awesome reason loving non believing in deities dude/chick. That being said allowing theists to exercise that control over you because of their ill conceived notions is unacceptable to me.
How many times have you seen Christians refer to their belief system as a relationship, and go on to exclaim that it is NOT a religion?

Part of that is just the craziness, but part is a subconscious realization that religion is seen as something to be avoided. Many of these Christians are oddly anti-theistic (anti-religion), even though they clearly follow a religion.

It's often said that anti-theism is a subset of atheism, but it isn't. Many religious people acknowledge the inherent harm of religion, but follow one anyway.

Atheists, when defining themselves, have nothing to justify, nothing to defend, nothing to feel ashamed about...but theists do. On here they are finding out how ill informed they are about atheists. That must be shocking.
Adam

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#10859 Jan 10, 2013
Bob wrote:
I need more beer anyone have any?
You should try a pub for that, or as Americans say liquor store.
Adam

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#10860 Jan 10, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Many of these Christians are oddly anti-theistic (anti-religion), even though they clearly follow a religion.
Agreed. Its a self delusion, so that the believer can avoid the obvious problem with comparative religion. With so many religions, sects and gods, what is the chances that someone is born into the right one.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#10861 Jan 10, 2013
derek4 wrote:
<quoted text>
Remember, I didn't bring up hell. And we're not talking about those chickens atheists say descended from coins.
You need to speak to Hedonist about your concerns, since he's terrified of hell. I was trying to console him, but it won't do him much good. He is determined he wants to go there.
By the way, it sounds like you need “IAN”(s) permission to post what is on your mind. You pore thang - how strange, lol.
You can't think for yourself? Why not? You write hymns, don't you?
Wow, I really got to you huh?

Again, the only people who could ever be happy in heaven knowing others are in eternal torture in hell would be psychopaths and sociopaths.

What a horrible myth you've got.

And, yes, if these places did exist, the company in hell would be much preferred --- Douglas Adams, Woody Allen, Isaac Asimov, Dan Barker, Ingmar Bergman, Niels Bohr, Richard Branson, James Cameron, George Carlin, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Noam Chomsky, Francis Crick, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Jodie Foster, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Ricky Gervais, Robert Heinlein, Ernest Hemingway, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Diane Keaton, Hugh Laurie, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, John Lennon, H.P. Lovecraft, Seth MacFarlane, Bill Maher, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Claude Monet, Julianne Moore, Randy Newman, Jack Nicholson, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, Rob Reiner, Keanu Reeves, Gene Roddenberry, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, Adam Savage, Erwin Schrödinger, Steven Soderbergh, Alan Turing, Gore Vidal, Vincent van Gogh, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, and HUNDREDS MORE...

I would definitely want to be far away from people like YOU.

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#10862 Jan 10, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
How many times have you seen Christians refer to their belief system as a relationship, and go on to exclaim that it is NOT a religion?
Part of that is just the craziness, but part is a subconscious realization that religion is seen as something to be avoided. Many of these Christians are oddly anti-theistic (anti-religion), even though they clearly follow a religion.
It's often said that anti-theism is a subset of atheism, but it isn't. Many religious people acknowledge the inherent harm of religion, but follow one anyway.
Atheists, when defining themselves, have nothing to justify, nothing to defend, nothing to feel ashamed about...but theists do. On here they are finding out how ill informed they are about atheists. That must be shocking.
As in the 'Prove There is A god' thread. I find the "non-practicing" thing to be just as strange. How can a person claim to be part of a faith based system but be non-practicing?

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#10863 Jan 10, 2013
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, I really got to you huh?
Again, the only people who could ever be happy in heaven knowing others are in eternal torture in hell would be psychopaths and sociopaths.
What a horrible myth you've got.
And, yes, if these places did exist, the company in hell would be much preferred --- Douglas Adams, Woody Allen, Isaac Asimov, Dan Barker, Ingmar Bergman, Niels Bohr, Richard Branson, James Cameron, George Carlin, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Noam Chomsky, Francis Crick, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Jodie Foster, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Ricky Gervais, Robert Heinlein, Ernest Hemingway, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Diane Keaton, Hugh Laurie, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, John Lennon, H.P. Lovecraft, Seth MacFarlane, Bill Maher, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Claude Monet, Julianne Moore, Randy Newman, Jack Nicholson, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, Rob Reiner, Keanu Reeves, Gene Roddenberry, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, Adam Savage, Erwin Schrödinger, Steven Soderbergh, Alan Turing, Gore Vidal, Vincent van Gogh, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, and HUNDREDS MORE...
I would definitely want to be far away from people like YOU.
You should really remove Randy Newman from that list..
other than that, Salaman Rushdie is dead?

Since: Mar 11

United States

#10864 Jan 10, 2013
Very nicely put! And oddly enough believers can certainly be the most anti-theistic as you have stated. I would add that many of the theists come here and see how poorly informed they are on their own beliefs.

Personally I love when the believer gets schooled by an atheist on what their own holy myth errr holy book says.

And no matter how anyone may pout and scream an atheist just isn't buying what the theist is selling it is the theist or person claiming a god exists who is obligated to show evidence for their deity and if they are unable to show objectable evidence convincingly then they have failed and must accept that. It is their cross to bear (pun intended) not ours.
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
How many times have you seen Christians refer to their belief system as a relationship, and go on to exclaim that it is NOT a religion?
Part of that is just the craziness, but part is a subconscious realization that religion is seen as something to be avoided. Many of these Christians are oddly anti-theistic (anti-religion), even though they clearly follow a religion.
It's often said that anti-theism is a subset of atheism, but it isn't. Many religious people acknowledge the inherent harm of religion, but follow one anyway.
Atheists, when defining themselves, have nothing to justify, nothing to defend, nothing to feel ashamed about...but theists do. On here they are finding out how ill informed they are about atheists. That must be shocking.

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#10865 Jan 10, 2013
Lil Ticked wrote:
<quoted text>As in the 'Prove There is A god' thread. I find the "non-practicing" thing to be just as strange. How can a person claim to be part of a faith based system but be non-practicing?
I think that's just poorly articulated. You can believe without showing it, or perform the ritual without believing.

There is a distinction that can be made between religious culture and religious belief.
Adam

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#10866 Jan 10, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
You can believe without showing it, or perform the ritual without believing.
There is a distinction that can be made between religious culture and religious belief.
Thats a very liberal attitude ;) Of course to fundies if you are not feverishly praying and speaking in tongues on a Sunday morning, you are a hell bound sinner

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