Don't dictate beliefs

Don't dictate beliefs

There are 11177 comments on the The Star Press story from Sep 5, 2012, titled Don't dictate beliefs. In it, The Star Press reports that:

No one else can say otherwise? That is basically saying those who do "believe in God" are better? Hardly.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Star Press.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#6052 Nov 17, 2012
derek4 wrote:
a billboard with a picture of Thomas Jefferson, and this supposed quote from the founding father:“I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature. It is founded on fables and mythology.”
Oh good! Thanks for bringing up Jefferson. You can challenge the provenance of that comment, but not its veracity. That quote is definitely something Jefferson would agree with, even if he didn't actually say it first. Here's more attributed to Tommy J. He was definitely no friend of Jesus :

[1] "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.- Thomas Jefferson

[2] "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." - Thomas Jefferson

[3] "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.- Thomas Jefferson

[4] "Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being." - Thomas Jefferson

[5]“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith.”– Thomas Jefferson

[6] "Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

[7] "It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong."- Thomas Jefferson

[8] "I've always found short and sweet the best way to deal with revisionists. Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." - Thomas Jefferson

[9] "Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight." - Thomas Jefferson

[10] Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.・-Thomas Jefferson

[11] Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." -Thomas Jefferson

[12] "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." -Thomas Jefferson

[13] "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson

[14] "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."- Thomas Jefferson

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#6053 Nov 17, 2012
derek4 wrote:
“To maintain that the faith of the nation’s founders had no bearing whatsoever on the Declaration of Independence is to deliberately skew American history."
Who cares? The Declaration has no legal significance.

The U.S. Constitution created the first secular government in history, arguably the best ever, too. One can only speculate about the relative degree of skepticism and supernaturalism in the Founders. But one thing is clear: they did not want religion in American government.

I wonder which part of Americanism the Christians think comes out of their bible? It's certainly not self-rule (democracy) or the rights of people. Nor is it egalitarianism nor due process. It's not decentralization of power. It's not the rule of law - Jehovah is above it. It isn't checks and balances nor transparency in government. It isn't church state separation. It's not even the census. The US Constitution calls for one, and Jehovah went apoplectic and killed 70,000 innocent Hebrews when David took a census:

“According to Samuel, David took a census of the people. This excited the wrath of Jehovah, and as a punishment he allowed David to choose seven years of famine, a flight of three months from pursuing enemies, or three days of pestilence. David, having confidence in God, chose the three days of pestilence; and thereupon, God, the compassionate, on account of the sin of David, killed seventy thousand innocent men. Under the same circumstances, what would a devil have done?”- Robert Green Ingersoll

That was a nice story.

Anyway, can any Christian tell me what part of the bible informs the US Constitution? It's not the two legislative houses or the Supreme Court. Jehovah is all of that. It's not the Bill of Rights. You have no rights with Jehovah, not even in heaven.

What then is from you? I say it's ALL from secular humanist thought - the heads of men like Locke and Montesquieu, and yes, the Founders themselves. That is painfully obvious. Your god has been completely excluded from the document and the government, and you want credit for what it accomplished. Nonsense. America's success has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity divides it and makes it more stupid, and not even paying its fair share of taxes.

The only place your pernicious religion appears in the government now is where you have pierced the church-state wall, such as when you put your god on the currency, and stuck it into the Pledge.

You get zero credit for any American success.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#6054 Nov 17, 2012
derek4 wrote:
[The Darwinism myth]
“The controversy over the origin of life was supposed to have been settled in the 1950s by the tidy doctrine of Darwinian evolution. Now, Darwin seems to be going the way of Marx and Freud... Far from supporting an atheistic, meaningless universe, the evidence supports a universe that is bursting with design.”
http://www.darwinism-watch.com/index.php...
Darwin's central thesis, namely that the relatedness, diversity, complexity, and adaptability of all life on earth arose naturalistically from a single common ancestral microbial species through descent by modification over deep time due to biological variation, trait heritablity, and natural selection - is immovably established, and has been for several decades. Move on, throwback.

If mathematics threatened your church like science does, you'd be attacking that, too, with an identical propaganda blitz. We would be hearing about all of the fraud in mathematics, how mathematicians can't be trusted, how math itself is flawed and unreliable because it's just a theory. And it would be essentially only Christians saying it.

Do you doubt or deny that? We know who you are, and what your ethics and agenda are as well. Do you think that you're fooling anybody about your motives with your objection to science? If you cared about integrity in science, you'd be doing the same for mathematics. Since you only target science, and evolutionary science in particular, it's obvious that you don't care about fraud or error as you pretend in your canned propaganda. You just care about your church, and are willing to do whatever damage is necessary to defend it from the revelation of science.

Since: Mar 11

Scottsburg, IN

#6055 Nov 17, 2012
Awesome posts as always bud!

Thanks for the great reading so refreshing after the reject's off topic spam.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
THE PRICE OF RELIGIOUS COWARDICE
One more huge benefit to a secular humanistic worldview: a shot at an authentic existence. Choosing the comforting swaddling of religion is spiritual cowardice. Here's what takes courage:
Try standing up like the bipedal ape you were born to be, and look out into the universe, which may be almost empty, and which may contain no gods at all. And then face and accept the very real possibility that we may be all there is for light years.
Accept that you may be vulnerable and not watched over.
Accept the likelihood of your own mortality and finititude.
Accept the reality of your insignificance everywhere but earth, and that you might be unloved except by those who know you - people, and maybe a few animals.
Because as far as we know, that's how it is.
It's unpleasant at first, but be brave! Religion is comforting, but at a great cost. It's infantilizing, and costs you your only shot at an authentic existence.
A theist can never know the ineffable joy of doing good for goodness sake, with no expectation that anyone will ever know what good you did or reward you for it.
When I pull over on a rural road to save a turtle crossing it, I know that nobody will ever know or care except me. Because there was nobody there in that corner of the universe to take responsibility for it, so I did.
That's as close to a godlike experience as you can get. It's not the same if a cosmic eye in the sky is always watching, judging, and tallying reward and punishment. You can't grow up if the baby sitter never leaves, or if the cop is always in the rear view mirror.
So, it's worth making the effort to learn to face reality without religion. Once you have faced the frightening, lonely, and bleak aspects of existence and learned to cope with them maturely, it doesn't feel nearly as frightening, lonely, or bleak any more.
Only then can you proceed to self-actualization, which is prevented by infantilizing dogma.
[I haven't even mentioned the spiritual journey made possible by a scientific understanding of nature covered so nicely in "Science Saved My Soul" which I alluded to a few days ago at http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T... This could be included in the opportunity costs of an infantilizing religion]

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#6056 Nov 17, 2012
Givemeliberty wrote:
I stopped wasting my time reading his posts long ago. How he can spam so many gets yet still have nothing to say? Lol!
<quoted text>
I very rarely read them.

The vast majority of dishonest scientists he refers to are undoubtedly Christians and they never really got a handle on the scientific method anyway.

He hates science so much but that's always the way with the clueless, chattering, religious classes he belongs to. His preference for magic and the supernatural is evinced by his loathing of the tangible truths that science provides.

His religion is witchcraft, it's ju-ju, it's superstitious mumbo jumbo.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#6057 Nov 17, 2012
nanoanomaly wrote:
I see you are still obsessed with the image of burning churches. Is that why you are hiding out in Mexico?
Mexico would be a poor choice of destination for a church arsonist. No buildings burn here, including churches. Buildings are constructed with brick, cinder block, rebar, concrete, steel beams, and ceramic tile. There is no lumber - no forests to speak of - nor dry wall.
nanoanomaly wrote:
Is that why you are hiding out in Mexico?
Hiding?

What do you think America has to offer a healthy retired person? Here I have better weather, I live in a vibrant and colorful community amongst friendlier people than I left, and we get better value for our money.

We also live a much eco-friendlier life, and a much healthier life, since most destinations are in walking distance, and locally grown and butchered food has many fewer chemicals in it.

The other expats make for a much more liberal and adventurous group of people than I am accustomed to, so we have many interesting and unusual friends with whom I have much more in common than my typical neighbor or coworker in the States.

And we earn about 8% interest. It's a much better life for us.

Neither of us likes to return to America, and we do it only to visit parents. It begins with the search in the airport, the belligerent customs agents, and the agricultural and drug dogs. It's all so unpleasant. And then the beige strip malls.

Hiding? I guess you could say that we are taking refuge from the strife, division, fear, frustration, deterioration, and failure that seems to define so much of modern American life for so many. And you are welcome to my share of the culture that brought us the mullet and Honey Boo Boo. I'm doing fine without it.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#6058 Nov 17, 2012
Givemeliberty wrote:
Awesome posts as always bud!
Thanks for the great reading so refreshing after the reject's off topic spam.
Thank you, my friend.

I hope that what comes through is the contrast between Christianity, which he represents here, and humanism,my philosophy. His fund of knowledge is so underdeveloped, his judgment so poor, his psyche so dark, his worldview so primitive, his ethics so shabby, and his spirit so small.

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#6059 Nov 17, 2012
I wish Christians would remember, if it wasn't for Santa Claus there wouldn't BE any fu king Christmas.
Dic kheads.
derek4 wrote:
Let's see what this brainy atheist says about Christmas:
“I'm a bad atheist”
“I have never been religious. Not even when I was young and going to church every Sunday. It just never clicked. I guess I viewed the stories, from the bible, as fairy tales or just a story. It has really just been recently that I would even say that I am an atheist. But really, I have always been atheist, just considered myself as non religious.
I guess I am a bad atheist. I celebrate Christmas. Christmas has just been a time to celebrate family, the home, the traditions. I have my family over every Christmas Eve, we open presents on Christmas morning. It is low keyed celebration. I don't put the tree up until a week before Christmas. There are a few lights outside. I don't exhaust myself trying to find the perfect gift for everyone. Something for the kids, parents, spouse. This might be more because of my years in retail, than religion.
I feel it more of a time of year to reflect on all people, the events, the love of mankind.”
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-714471
[An airhead hypocritical atheist who doesn't believe in God, but celebrates Christmas. Why should Christmas to an atheist be a “time of year to reflect on all people, the events, the love of mankind”?- why?- because Jesus and the Bible represent those things? The Jesus and Bible he / she does not believe in?]

Since: Apr 08

Watford, UK

#6060 Nov 17, 2012
What a great run of posts from IANS,

Thoughtful, clear and eloquent.

Everything Derek's posts aren't.

It's also noticeable that the majority of Derek's posts are cut and paste jobs which are indicative of a mind that can't think for itself.

Contrast that with the majority of IANS posts which are indicative of a mind that's free of superstition and mumbo jumbo and is most definitely thinking for itself.

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6061 Nov 17, 2012
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you mean " global warming is NOT a real threat" above?
What difference does it make what he meant? Is he a scientist? No. He's just a ranting atheist. Do you depend on him to let you know how you are to believe? What does science tell you about global warming? You don't ever research these matters to learn about them for yourself?

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6062 Nov 17, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
derek4, I revoke your trolling license, you are so bad at it no one should bother reading your linguine. Decent trolls don't through around pasta, or waste time with utter nonsense like you do. You're a failure as a troll, and a human, and a man, according to your mother.
Keep up the good work. As long as I get your criticism, I know I'm still doing fine. When you start liking me is when I'm in trouble, lol.

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6063 Nov 17, 2012
Good morning infidels,

Time for you to drag yourself about of bed and start another meaningless day of existence.

Maybe you can work on organizing your church burnings today. Or you can start another lawsuit over a manger scene. Why are you afraid of baby Jesus in a manger if he's fictitious?

And let's not forget your “Smut 4 Smut” campaigns that don't serve you well. Do you think American families want those kind of campaigns for their children? Is promoting smut your legacy to America? Pornography?

Is a destructive, pornographic atheist the kind of president America needs? Do Americans want that kind of president? What did atheist leaders do that was good for Russia?

Christianity is growing every day in China, Japan, Nigeria, Asia, Africa; elsewhere. There's a global revival, lol. It was predicted in the Bible. It's happening. Get used to it.

You do not represent anything Americans want. In fact, you are shining examples of what Americans DO NOT want. And you know it, because so many atheists hide their belief from the general public. NO WONDER - how miserable it must be to have to hide your godlessness in shame. The only place you can freely express it is in these forums where you try and fail to dictate your beliefs. You're going nowhere. There is to be no revival for your “smut 4 smut, unwanted, meaningless atheist religion.

But I'd like to leave you with one positive thought to help you along: The worms are waiting for you. They will accept you, lol.

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6064 Nov 17, 2012
Today we will look at the atheist "agenda".

“The Atheist Agenda is an organization founded in 2005 by a group of atheist and agnostic students and teachers from the The University of Texas at San Antonio. The group is dedicated to the philosophy of free thought, as well as promoting aggressive activism against theology and theological institutions, encouraging non-believers to take pride in their history and community, and providing to them the same fellowship that those of a religious background share. The Agenda frequently holds meetings open to all who wish to learn, and is known for staging demonstrations (most notably the "Smut for Smut" campaign in the San Antonio and Austin areas, to make their viewpoints known. Since its creation, the Atheist Agenda has grown from small gathering of students to a group of hundreds, with members at The University of Texas at Austin and University of Houston in addition to those at UTSA.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atheist_Agen...

[Note the references to religion:“ providing to them the same fellowship that those of a religious background share”- the atheist religion.]

[How upstanding - lol – the 'Smut for Smut' campaign.”- real class, real upstanding citizens – real examples for their godless children.]

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6065 Nov 17, 2012
WE DON'T WANT ATHEIST AGENDA

“In 1917, the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian government and seized total power. The elimination of religious belief was the core element in their revolutionary program.

Immediately, churches were closed, Bibles were banned, and Christians became enemies of the state, resulting in imprisonment and execution.

A tiny handful of churches remained open for propaganda purposes. The Russian people suffered under the tyranny of atheistic communism.

This same scenario took place under Mao Zedong in China and Fidel Castro in Cuba and is happening throughout the world today. People of faith suffer when godless atheism has the reins.

My point is this: When the Coalition of American Atheists meets, it's not for fun, food and fellowship. They have an agenda. They're bedfellows with the American Civil Liberties Union, whose ultimate goal, through their misinterpretation of separation of church and state, is the abolition of prayer and Bible reading from public institutions, the removal of "In God We Trust" from our currency and the deposition of all Bible inscriptions from government buildings.

Nativities would be a crime against the state, as would the posting of the Ten Commandments.

The Humanist Manifesto would reign over God and the Bible, and America would fall under the control of godless atheism.”
http://www.ldnews.com/ci_21757070/we-dont-wan...

[Atheists trying (but failing) to dictate their beliefs.]

[I'd like to know the percentage of gutless atheists who "hide" their belief from the public.]

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6066 Nov 17, 2012
God's truth blasts atheists' agenda

“In August, the atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), once again attempted to demonstrate its disdain for America’s godly heritage. The FFRF attempted to remove a statue of Jesus Christ on Big Mountain overlooking Whitefish, Mont. The United States Forest Service bowed to their request … at first.

A constitutional law center sent out an alert to the American people, calling on the U.S. Forest Service to reverse its decision – and it worked! As a matter of fact, 50,000 petition signatures were received, tripling the entire membership of the anti-free speech, atheist group.

No matter how hard they try, God’s truth and light cannot be put out. The American people are rising up, young and old, and they see through the agendas and blatant attacks on America’s foundation.”
http://www.wnd.com/2011/11/368881/

[Atheists are horrible at making friends and influencing people, lmao.]

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6067 Nov 17, 2012
Challenging the New Atheists

“Nearly thirty years ago John Lennon sang the song,“Imagine.”

continued:

“Would the world be a better place if faith in God was eliminated? Many atheists now think so. Richard Dawkins states,“Imagine with John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine, no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as ‘Christ killers’, no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’, no honour killings’, no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money (‘God wants you to give till it hurts’). Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing one inch of it.” The goal of the new atheists is to rid the world of belief in God or religion and replace it with reason and science. The new atheists believe that religions that embrace a belief in God, particularly Christianity, are not just irrational but dangerous and therefore must be extinguished.”

continued:

“The new atheists are not presenting new arguments but instead they are promoting their ideas very aggressively with strong, confrontational, and condemning language.”

continued:

“A significant point that the new atheists do not mention is the destructive consequences of atheist philosophies. Nietzsche predicted that the death of God would lead to a moral relativism which would result in blood in the streets.{11} Communism has lead to the death of millions in the twentieth century. Millions were put to death under the regimes of Marx, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung.”
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.576...

[“The goal of the new atheists is to rid the world of belief in God or religion and replace it with reason and science.”]

There's that word science again.... better described as FRAUDULENT SCIENCE.]

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#6068 Nov 17, 2012
The Atheist Agenda

“Atheist Agenda is a student organization at the University of Texas at San Antonio. We emphasize all forms of free-thinking and vehement questioning of religion. Follow us on Twitter @AtheistAgenda! Want more info? Just ask, we don't bite.”
http://atheist-agenda.tumblr.com/

[Yeah, take a look at their website – aren't they a classy, reputable looking bunch? Not really .....they look like loan sharks and used car dealers, porno stars, etc. LMAO]

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#6069 Nov 17, 2012
20th Century Iniquity
Christian Church allies itself with Fascism; opposes advances of science & personal freedom
1907 Pius X condemns Modernism in the decree Lamentabili and the encyclical Pascendi.
Hitler, a Roman Catholic, is never excommunicated for causing the death of millions; whereas Martin Luther was excommunicated for criticism of the papal system.
21st Century Menace
Churches the Stalking Ground of Paedophiles & Sex Offenders
On March 12, 2000 Pope John Paul II attempted to purify the soul of the Catholic Church by apologising for 2000 years of "sins" committed by the church – quite some compensation for twenty centuries of terrorism, extortion and murder!
And yet – September 2000 – the same John Paul II issues "Dominus Jesus (Lord Jesus)", reaffirming intolerance: "Only one path to God – the Roman Catholic Church."
derek4 wrote:
Challenging the New Atheists
“Nearly thirty years ago John Lennon sang the song,“Imagine.”
continued:
“Would the world be a better place if faith in God was eliminated? Many atheists now think so. Richard Dawkins states,“Imagine with John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine, no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as ‘Christ killers’, no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’, no honour killings’, no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money (‘God wants you to give till it hurts’). Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing one inch of it.” The goal of the new atheists is to rid the world of belief in God or religion and replace it with reason and science. The new atheists believe that religions that embrace a belief in God, particularly Christianity, are not just irrational but dangerous and therefore must be extinguished.”
continued:
“The new atheists are not presenting new arguments but instead they are promoting their ideas very aggressively with strong, confrontational, and condemning language.”
continued:
“A significant point that the new atheists do not mention is the destructive consequences of atheist philosophies. Nietzsche predicted that the death of God would lead to a moral relativism which would result in blood in the streets.{11} Communism has lead to the death of millions in the twentieth century. Millions were put to death under the regimes of Marx, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung.”
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.576...
[“The goal of the new atheists is to rid the world of belief in God or religion and replace it with reason and science.”]
There's that word science again.... better described as FRAUDULENT SCIENCE.]

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#6070 Nov 17, 2012
Christians get a lot of mileage out of the aphorism of 'turning the other cheek', a sentiment originating at least as early as Pythagoras in the fifth century BC. Yet both in theory and in practice, Christians have honoured the principle of murdering their opponents. The word, it seems, came from the very top. Apparently Jesus himself said:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." – Luke 19.27

(Not the word of the Lord? Oh yes it is!)

The Christian Heaven may have been a vain folly but the Christian Hell was real enough. For more than a thousand years sadists in the uniform of Christ terrorised and brutalised a continent and then exported that terror to the four corners of the globe.

The Church, which, with a satanic twist of humour, claimed to be the instrument of 'Christ's loving kindness', taught a brutalised and impoverished people new meanings to the words pain and suffering...

For those who dared to be different:

Incarceration – starvation – psychological torment and terror – laceration – mutilation strangulation – suffocation – crushing – choking – burning – garrotting
slow and agonizing death.

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#6071 Nov 17, 2012
Loving Your Neighbour?– Killing Your Opponents!
"The list of religious atrocities committed in the sacrosanct name of Christ is long and varied ...
In proof of this, witness the gibbets, the wheels, the massacres, and the horrible burnings at the stake of nearly a hundred thousand human beings in a single province -
the massacres and devastations of nine mad crusades of Christians against unoffending Turks, during nearly two hundred years; in which many millions of human beings perished-
the massacre of the Anabaptists-
the massacres of the Lutherans and Papists, from the Rhine to the extremities of the north-
the massacres in Ireland, England, and Scotland, in the time of Charles the First, who was himself massacred-
the massacres ordered by Henry the Eighth and his daughter Mary-
the massacres of St. Bartholomew in France; and forty years more of other massacres between the time of Francis the First, and the entry of Henry the Fourth into Paris

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