Don't dictate beliefs

[It aint necessarily so]

derek4 wrote:

“A person's religion is the sum total of his beliefs about God and the supernatural.

RELIGION IS FEAR AND SLAVERY

What, after all, is religion?

It is fear.

Fear builds the altar and offers the sacrifice.

Fear erects the cathedral and bows the head of man in worship.

Fear bends the knees and utters the prayer.

Fear pretends to love.

Religion teaches the slave-virtues -- obedience, humility, self-denial, forgiveness, non-resistance.

Lips, religious and fearful, tremblingly repeat this passage: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." This is the abyss of degradation.

Religion does not teach self-reliance, independence, manliness, courage, self-defence. Religion makes God a master and man his serf. The master cannot be great enough to make slavery sweet.

-- Robert Green Ingersoll

[It aint necessarily so]

derek4 wrote:

Atheism is the religion whose belief about God is that there is no God.

You really want to drag the absence of theistic superstition down into the muck with religion, don't you? We will not allow you to befoul atheism any more than we will allow you to do the same to science. Every time you try is another opportunity to compare your system to ours.

Rational skepticism is the rejection of the sterile claims of supernaturalism - superstition and magical thinking. Atheism is the result of this rejection, and is the first step to enlightenment. It paved the way for the only philosophy of the world that has ever made a improvement in the human condition: secular humanism, which gave the world systems such as science and the personal freedoms guaranteed by the modern democratic state.

Your religion's legacy, by contrast, includes the flat earth and totalitarian theocracies.

[It aint necessarily so]

derek4 wrote:

"Some Atheists, for their own political reasons, assert that Atheism is not a religion but instead is the total absence of religion. This allows them to spread their Atheistic beliefs freely in societies which insist on "separation of church and state.

Don't be such a pussy. You people have had the only voice for millennia. We have only just recently gotten ours, and you're sniveling like a child about it. You still have the whole world except our science classrooms in which to make your case. Make it.

But you'd better hurry. You're hemorrhaging social clout at an alarming rate.

derek4 wrote:

"If Atheism is a religion, then it must be subject to the same legal restrictions imposed by governments on all other religions. In particular, in the United States, the teaching of Atheism must be prohibited wherever the teaching of Christianity is prohibited. But where is Atheism being taught? Atheism is being taught, by default, in all places where other religions cannot be taught, particularly in the public schools.”

American schools don't teach atheism. They teach academic subjects like science and history, as well as the arts, health, citizenship skills, home economics, and physical education.

derek4 wrote:

If we are not created by God, then there might as well be no God, for all the difference He makes.

Agreed. Others seem to be agreeing with you as well increasingly frequently.

derek4 wrote:

Object again if you wish, and my reply the second time will be to ignore you or copy and paste all the above right back to you, since there is nothing you can say that will change the facts as I've presented them, lol.

Atta boy! Post away. Make your best case in the marketplace of ideas while we will make ours, and may the best philosophy prevail.

[It aint necessarily so]

Langoliers wrote:

Are you the woman that keeps calling the highway patrol and telling them to move the deer crossing signs because too many deer are getting killed trying to cross where the signs are currently?
LOL. Nut Job.

Are you the one that objects to the "Slow Children At Play" signs?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2GOp00WR4XM/TMdszub...

[It aint necessarily so]

Just Think wrote:

What is it with religious people and their weird need to have everyone assigned to some religion - so much so that now they claim that people who don't even believe in god have formed their own religion?

Until today, I had always assumed that the "atheism is a religion" meme was developed and piped into the echo chamber to demean atheism with a slur.

But Derek answered the question in a way that I hadn't considered before when he posted this, which was apparently also bubbling through the echo chamber from which all of his prepared apologetics arise:

derek4 wrote:

"When the State prohibits free discussion of God in the classroom, that is establishing the religion of Atheism. Wherever the State permits Atheistic ideas to be spread but prohibits Theistic ideas, that is establishing the religion of Atheism.

Therefore I urge you to understand clearly in your mind that Atheism is a religion, just as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are religions. And any restrictions placed on Christianity, Judaism, or Islam must also be placed on Atheism. Atheism must not be allowed to slip through its little loophole any longer, by pretending it is not a religion.”

It's a political movement. They apparently believe that if they can equate secular government with atheism, and both with religion, that they can argue that teaching science means that religion should be taught in schools.

I have recently argued in this thread [ http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T... ] about how anti-American Christianity is. It really resents most of the founding principles in the US Constitution.

I will be adding this meme - equating atheism with theism, and skepticism with faith - to that argument in the future.

[It aint necessarily so]

derek4 wrote:

It is a false analogy that asserts all religions are defined by a belief in a deity

It's not an analogy. It's a definition. And it comes from Langoliers, who posted this definition of religion :

"the service and worship of God or the supernatural"

I have accepted that and used it myself since.

[Khatru]

derek4 wrote:

To Khatru:
I just realized how selfish it was of me earlier today when I only, posted about atheist places of worship in America. I don't want you to feel left out, so I found an atheist place of worship for you in the UK.
If it's too far from your home, maybe you can at least read atheist Alain de Botton's newly released book called "Religion For Atheists.” Its referenced below.
Please read here:
Atheist Temple: Nonbelievers To Get Place Of 'Worship' In UK
(from January, 2012)
Atheists have long criticised devout followers of faith. But now it seems Atheism is stealing from that very religious tradition by erecting a temple of worship.
Author Alain de Botton announced plans to build an Atheist temple in the U.K., reports DeZeen magazine.
A collaboration with Tom Greenall Architects, the structure will be built in the City of London.
Dedicated to the idea of perspective, the black tower will scale 46 meters (150 ft), with each centimeter honoring earth's age of 4.6 billion years, notes Wired.
But a place of worship isn't the only attribute from organized religion that Atheists can benefit from, says de Botton. In his newly released book "Religion For Atheists," the author points to design, art and community to inspire and attract a following.
Though de Botton has yet to announce a final date for opening the temple, he hopes to create a network of such buildings across the U.K., according to BLOUIN ARTINFO.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/25/athe...

Atheists don't need a temple in pretty much the same way as someone who doesn't play tennis doesn't need a tennis court.

Anyway, there are far more interesting places in London to visit - places like the Science Museum, the British Museum and the Natural History Museum.

There you can revel in the glories of nature and human achievement.

No unproveable cosmic mega-being required.

[Givemeliberty]

Not to mention violence for leaving the religion.

The serpent was right wrote:

<quoted text>
Even if what you said is true, it is a sad fact that the only reason you have such a high percentage is because your cults use child indoctrination, and brainwashing.
That's something to be proud of.
It's funny you use the kool-aid anology.

[derek4]

Khatru wrote:

<quoted text>
Atheists don't need a temple in pretty much the same way as someone who doesn't play tennis doesn't need a tennis court.
Anyway, there are far more interesting places in London to visit - places like the Science Museum, the British Museum and the Natural History Museum.
There you can revel in the glories of nature and human achievement.
No unproveable cosmic mega-being required.

Atheists don't need a temple? Apparently many of them do, or they wouldn't have them, and they wouldn't be building more – even in the UK. I bet they accept dollars for donations too, even if those dollars say “In God we trust” on them, lol.

Oh, well, if you don't feel you need to go to your atheist temple to share your religion with fellow atheists, you can always do like I suggested and read Alain de Botton's newly released book called "Religion For Atheists.” Maybe there is something useful in it for you.

Oh, you would rather go to the museums than your temple?

I bet you like the science museum best of all, considering the close ties between science and atheism.

Oh, I know – so many atheist posters in here have said that atheism and science is not connected, but I know better. Just take a look at this atheist webpage, for example: http://www.sacskeptics.org/

When it comes up, look over on the left at all the links to science resources:“Science/Skeptical Podcasts”,“Science/Skeptical Websites”,“This week in science”, etc. Sure is a lot of interest in science!!!

And, if you click their “About” tab, you will see their “mission statement”, which includes this language:“The mission of the Sacramento Area Skeptics’(SAS) is to serve the community of the Sacramento area by promoting the application of critical thinking to problems and controversies that exist in our society. This includes such diverse topics as alternative medicine, pseudoscience, creationism in the science classroom ...”[Sure looks like a lot of interest in science and connection to science to me.]

Now, Khatru, I know you don't want to “plough” through all that, but maybe some of our other atheist readers who have close science ties will find the information helpful, should they want to join the organization instead of the atheist religious organizations / churches that I posted earlier today.

[derek4]

This is a hoot:

The Atheist Hymnal:

http://www.feelmyfaith.com/2010/08/atheist-hy...

LMAO

[derek4]

Universal Life Church Monastery

About Us:

The Universal Life Church Monastery strongly believes in the rights of all people from all faiths to practice their religious beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are, be they Christian, Jew, Gentile, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Shinto, Pagan, Wiccan, Druid or even Dignity Catholics; so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others and are within the law of the land and one’s conscience.

We ordain ministers, priests, rabbis and clergy worldwide who are totally non-religious or even anti-religious. This may seem contradictory, but we are looking to change the negative perceptions of religion, faith and spirituality, by encouraging people to take control, stand up and speak truth to power by fearlessly stating their personal religious beliefs. The ULC Monastery seeks to fulfill the spiritual needs of as many different groups as we can by offering a wide variety of services, ordinations, information and networking opportunities. We teach that the communication and fellowship of our ministers is equal to the once a week sacramonious fellowship in some of our most segregated and elitist churches. We further proclaim that "We are all Children of the same Universe" and as such we each have a right to be here. Thus said, that is the way that your God and Mother Nature planned it.

We can best accomplish this with your help. If there is anything you would like to see added to the website which will help you grow spiritually, please feel free to contact us.

We have the same legal standing as any worldwide religious institution. Upon request we issue Ordination Certificates and notarized Letters of Good Standing to all ordained ULC ministers in our data banks.

In closing, we need your prayers. We know where we are going. If you should decide not to travel our path and seek fellowship somewhere else; God speed. Nonetheless, do drop by from time to time as we know you will. It is our hope that you’ll remember us on this day we met on our journey to Jericho where Joshua fought the battle and the walls of intolerance came tumbling down. We continue Joshua’s battle herein

Statement of Universal Life Church Monastery


We believe that everyone should be an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church Monastery. Anyone who has not yet done so is simply unaware of the accorded privileges to perform wedding ceremonies, funerals, baptisms and yes, even exorcisms. This church will legally ordain anyone who asks and we will never charge a fee for doing so.

Select Get Ordained to begin the ordination process today. We offer this service as part of our non-profit ULC ministry, without any question as to your religious or spiritual faith, beliefs or practices. We keep a formal legal record of all ordinations for life.

This ULC church has two tenets: to ensure for each of our ordained ministers the absolute right of freedom to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment; and to encourage our newly ordained ministers to do that which is right and in accord with their government’s laws.

The Universal Life Church Monastery will not stand between you and your God and we recognize that each minister and clergy member has the right to choose his or her own spiritual path. Each minister legally ordained by the ULC Monastery is at liberty to follow any religious path so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.
http://www.themonastery.org/aboutUs

Especially noteworthy from the above:

“We ordain ministers, priests, rabbis and clergy worldwide who are totally non-religious or even anti-religious.”

[derek4]

The atheist religion includes prayer.

Here is an atheist prayer:

ATHEIST PRAYER
Our Powers are within,
Whatever be their name.
What they have done, what still may come,
This Earth can yet be as Heaven.
Live then this day, and without dread,
And forgive your own trespasses
As you forgive those who trespass against you.
And be not led into temptation,
But flee away from evil,
For Time is the Healer,
With power to restore me,
Forever and ever, Amen.
http://packham.n4m.org/atheist2.htm

Also found within the text at the above link:

“Can an atheist pray? Why not? I don't believe in God - at least not the God as described by the majority of theists - but I DO believe that there is plenty of evidence that we human beings can summon up powers to help us in difficult times. I don't venture to guess whether these powers are within us or outside us, but I don't think it matters what their source is, they are there. And we can benefit from them.

Those who believe in God summon up these powers by calling upon God in prayer. Those who do not believe in God use other methods - meditation, visualization, altered states of consciousness, whatever. They work for the believer, and because they sometimes work, the believer's faith is strengthened, because the prayers are answered. They work just as well for the non-believer.

I guess what I am saying is that one doesn't have to give up one's access to these powers just because one has given up belief in God. They are still there. I use them, all the time. Whereas I used to address a prayer: "Dear God, please..." I now simply place myself in a meditative state, relax, and put my feelings into words (sometimes only mentally) addressed to whoever or whatever may be listening. Even if it is only some part of my inner self, something happens to bring me peace, self-assurance, confidence. My fears are calmed, my sorrows are soothed, and I am reminded of my unassailable right to my tiny place in the universe, and that somehow everything will turn out all right in the end, or, if it doesn't, it won't really matter.”

[LMAO – a prayer “addressed to whoever or whatever may be listening."]

[derek4]

Why (as an Atheist) I Pray

“I identify as an atheist. Empirically, I’ve never seen any evidence supporting the existence of a deity, and rationally, none of the major religious belief systems make any sense to me. Cosmologically, I guess I would call myself a meta-evolutionist (I believe both in Darwinian evolution, and in the evolution of the evolutionary process).”

[Poster's insert: more reference to science which relates to atheism....]
continued:

Still, I respect many religious traditions and practices. I respect religious tradition because I like tradition in general, and religious ones are often the only ones available in any particular life area. As for religious practices, I take an eclectic approach. I like pork chops and bacon too much to ever be kosher, but I don’t mind (and sometimes enjoy) reciting Jewish prayers before meals (my wife and daughter are Jewish).

One religious practice I embrace wholeheartedly is prayer. Prayer can mean many different things, but I’m talking about the “personal dialogue with God” variety.

So how does this fit in with atheism? If I pray, who or what am I praying to? Do I just have a massive tolerance for cognitive dissonance? Or have I bought into the sloppy pseudoscience behind “remote healing”?

No and no. My practice of prayer is consistent with my rational, atheistic belief system. Nothing spooky or supernatural is required to make an argument for why prayer is effective (for me).

I’ll try to explain.

[Poster's insert: He goes on to explain, then concludes with this in his closing paragraph:]

“... there’s no need to give up religious practice, just because you’ve decided that the idea of a Creator doesn’t make sense. You can still go to church/temple/mosque, you can still pray (both traditional prayer and the “personal prayer” I talked about in this post if that’s part of your tradition). I realize, living in the Bay Area, that I’m in a bubble of enlightened religious thinking, where many reformed communities are completely tolerant of naturalistic philosophies like Darwinism. Richard Dawkins criticizes these types as “religious moderates,” trying to find middle ground where none exists. Maybe that’s a valid criticism in some cases, but there’s more to religion than belief (especially in the case of Judaism). There are powerful psychological factors involved in community, ritual, and practice that bind us to each other, and help us in our own personal growth, and we don’t have to believe in God to take advantage of these things.”
http://jdmoyer.com/2011/07/25/why-as-an-athei...

“... just because you’ve decided that the idea of a Creator doesn’t make sense. You can still go to church/temple/mosque, you can still pray (both traditional prayer and the “personal prayer” I talked about in this post.”

[Langoliers]

Reason Personified wrote:

<quoted text>2005? Did you have go that far back to find something relevant to your mistaken way of thinking? You could have just done what all the other religitards do. Make something up and lie. Even if it were true, theism is not just Christain, it is every bit of space cadet crap that can be imagined, even the guys who wait for the bus from outer space. Those are your theist!

100% of babies born to theist parents, are atheist.

100%.... we didn't lose them, we never had them, they are atheist at birth. That means without theism, it does not mean non believer, even those infants are non believers too.

Being the children of theist, they will be indoctrinated to whatever invisible magic friend mind fantasy their parents play at.

There are many thousands of theistic bents, that the theist parents could be indoctrinating their children into. You go ahead and claim them all for the loon side, the worship of any and every god from Achelois to Zeus, from Kali to Beelzebub, they all make up that ever shrinking percentage, they are the vanishing theist.

Once upon a time, all these gods were believed in, and now it's only a tiny percentage, that are left, with even a few believers. >>> godchecker.com

"100% of babies born to theist parents, are atheist.

100%.... we didn't lose them, we never had them, they are atheist at birth. "

What?

100% are born atheist then you had them! Duh!

Regardless of what their parents believe atheist claim that all humans are born Atheist. That means that atheist had them and then lost them.

2.3% of the world population is currently atheist. That means 97.7% are no longer atheist. YOU LOST THEM.

LOL

[Langoliers]

Reason Personified wrote:

<quoted text>That might work out better for you, if you took your agenda to the science forum, and btw, tablets, smart phones, ipads, pcs, and even keyboards are proof that science is getting it right.

Ummm that just plain stupid!

So you're claiming that because science invented the iPhone that there is no God?

A PC proves Jesus was a fraud?

Keyboards prove that Noah didn't build a boat?

What planet are you from?

Wow!

[Langoliers]

NightSerf wrote:

Religious demographics are tremendously difficult to compile on a worldwide scale. Here's a geographic representation published by Penn State that I found on the Pew forum and credited to the Encyclopedia Britannica World Book, 1999 that asserts that 15.4% of the world population consists of nonbelievers.

http://www.worldreligions.psu.edu/maps-introd...

Is that accurate? Hard to tell. But the 2.3% figure low-balls the figure by counting only self-professed atheists, so the higher figure seems more reasonable.

Not true! You guy just can't handle it!

Seems this little FACT is quite the burr under your saddle!!! LOL

Playing games with the number aren't you?

2.3% of the world population are Atheist
11.9% are agnostic not Atheist!

Get your religions name correct!

Wikipedia:

"According to one estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population, while a further 11.9% are nonbelievers"

2.3% are ATHEIST. Period!

97.7% are not Atheist!

Feel the burn baby!! LMFAO!!

[Langoliers]

Reason Personified wrote:

<quoted text>Atheist = not theist!
"A" means not.

abridge\ə-ˈbrij\
transitive verb
1 a archaic : deprive
b : to reduce in scope : diminish <attempts to abridge the right of free speech>
2 : to shorten in duration or extent <modern transportation that abridges distance>
3 : to shorten by omission of words without sacrifice of sense : condense

bridge\ˈbrij\
noun
1 a : a structure carrying a pathway or roadway over a depression or obstacle
b : a time, place, or means of connection or transition
2 : something resembling a bridge in form or function: as
a : the upper bony part of the nose; also : the part of a pair of glasses that rests upon it
b : a piece raising the strings of a musical instrument — see violin illustration
c : the forward part of a ship's superstructure from which the ship is navigated
d : gantry 2b
e : the hand as a rest for a billiards or pool cue; also : a device used as a cue rest
3 a : a musical passage linking two sections of a composition
b : a partial denture anchored to adjacent teeth
c : a connection (as an atom or group of atoms) that joins two different parts of a molecule (as opposite sides of a ring)
4 : an electrical instrument or network for measuring or comparing resistances, inductances, capacitances, or impedances by comparing the ratio of two opposing voltages to a known ratio

A does not mean NOT!

Atheist = believes no God exist.

Theist = believes God does exist.

Bridge = a structure carrying a pathway or roadway over a depression or obstacle

Abridge = to reduce in scope : diminish

Play your "A" game with someone else!

LOL

[Langoliers]

Reason Personified wrote:

<quoted text>Why do you think that you need us in your faith and religion boat? Do you want to be like us? If so you are still going at it the wrong way, but keep trying, you may get it right after a few thousand or so more tries.

You can be my slave!

[Langoliers]

Reason Personified wrote:

<quoted text>"According to one 2005 estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population" OK, so where is the data that proves that, and who did the one estimate?

That >>> one <<< estimate, you first laud and then try to use it as established fact. Well it don't work that way. It is not established fact.

So let's look again at your own source, wiki ......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion
"It has been estimated that 16% of the world population (1.1 billion people) are " non-religious" and on the same page "Some evidence suggests that the fastest growing religious status in the United States is "no religion". And it goes on to say that it may be 40 - 50% now.

and

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12799801

Mar 20, 2011 ... Nearly two-thirds of people do not regard themselves as "religious", a new survey carried out to coincide with the 2011 Census suggests.

That would be 66%.

and

www.amazon.com/Good-Without-God-Billion-Nonre... ...-Good Without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do Believe [Greg Epstein]

Good Without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do ...

and BTW, "drink the koolaid' is all about the sheep following their shepherds instructions from the lord.

"

That >>> one <<< estimate, you first laud and then try to use it as established fact. Well it don't work that way. It is not established fact. "

ONE. LMFAO

A survey published in the 2005 Encyclopedia Britannica stated that 2.3% of the world's population consists of individuals who profess "atheism, skepticism, disbelief, or irreligion, including the militantly antireligious." In regards to the 2.3% figure just mentioned, the 2005 survey cited by Encyclopedia Britannica survey did not include Buddhist in regards to the 2.3% figure and Buddhism can be theistic or atheistic."

Wikipedia:

"Another survey attributed to Britannica shows the population of atheists at around 2.4% of the world's population.[citation needed] It is difficult to determine whether atheism is growing or not"

Wikipedia :

"2005 poll by AP/Ipsos surveyed ten countries. Of the developed nations, people in the United States were most sure of the existence of God or a higher power (2% atheist, 4% agnostic)"

Wikipedia :

"According to one estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population"

[derek4]

From The Washington Post:

“Religion for Atheists: A Non-Believer’s Guide to the Uses of Religion”

by Alain de Botton

“...in what is sure to be his most controversial book,“Religion for Atheists,” de Botton turns his attention to aspects of religion he considers worth saving. Employing his usual mix of (mostly) cogent, highly personal discourse and quirky, often hilarious photographs, he tries to make a case for not throwing out the baby with the baptismal water.

De Botton states up front that he was brought up “in a committedly atheistic household, as the son of two secular Jews who placed religious belief somewhere on a par with an attachment to Santa Claus.” He adds:“I recall my father reducing my sister to tears in an attempt to dislodge her modestly held notion that a reclusive god might dwell somewhere in the universe. She was eight years old at the time.” Well, one can only imagine the old man’s reactions to some of his son’s pronouncements in “Religion for Atheists.” Case in point:“Secular education will never succeed in reaching its potential until humanities lecturers are sent to be trained by African-American Pentecostal preachers.”

Though written by and for people who do not believe in the existence of God or “in miracles, spirits, or tales of burning shrubbery,” the book could be subtitled “Religious Appreciation 101.”

continued:

“His criticisms of secular culture center on its lack of emotionality. He considers higher education irrelevant to “the most serious questions of the soul” and says it fails to teach us how to live. He believes that museums, which could be our new temples, stress information over feelings, which are what really matter. He dourly regards marriage as “one of modern society’s most grief-stricken arrangements, which has been rendered unnecessarily hellish by the astonishing secular supposition that it should be entered into principally for the sake of happiness.” On the other hand, he argues that “religions are wise in not expecting us to deal with all of our emotions on our own.”

De Botton is least persuasive when he makes specific proposals for a secular religion. His two primary models for this endeavor, Friedrich Nietzsche and Auguste Comte, were by his own admission mentally unbalanced.

continued.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/b...

“I recall my father reducing my sister to tears in an attempt to dislodge her modestly held notion that a reclusive god might dwell somewhere in the universe. She was eight years old at the time.”

“Secular education will never succeed in reaching its potential until humanities lecturers are sent to be trained by African-American Pentecostal preachers.”[LMAO]