Science Proves God

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Since: Dec 08

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#1
Jul 31, 2012
 

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Science Proves God



When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:



1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.



Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.



The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.



“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.”[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown]



Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.



Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.



The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.



If you are interested in more detailed proof, read,“Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.



[From "Reincarnation in the Bible?"]

“There is no god!”

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#2
Jul 31, 2012
 

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Creationism is for stupid
EdSed

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#3
Jul 31, 2012
 
Science disproves all gods currently defined, especially Abrahamic ones and these...
http://www.godchecker.com/

Religions are man-made and parent-inflicted.

The reasoning in Post 1,(Pahu's) is extremely simplistic. Nobody can prevent anyone's belief in some sort of magical creator of the universe but don't drag science into it.

Religion = superstition
Theology = mythology
It's 2012. Get real.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

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#4
Jul 31, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law,...
Then what caused this "god" you speak of?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#5
Jul 31, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.”[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read,“Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.
[From "Reincarnation in the Bible?"]
well, thanks for admitting that God is not good, if there is one.
havent forgotten

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#6
Jul 31, 2012
 

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Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Then what caused this "god" you speak of?
bad weed, or bad mushrooms?

Since: Aug 12

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#7
Aug 9, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.”[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read,“Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.
[From "Reincarnation in the Bible?"]
That was logically said, and, to me, was actually quite reasonable, but I have a question: If God created the universe (as "nothing can come from nothing") who created God? Since nothing can come from nothing, where did he spring up from? Nothingness? Or is there another God who created God? Is there a whole line of God-creating Gods creating Gods from nothing? Or is nothing God? And God created it?

“The eye has it...”

Since: Jan 12

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#8
Aug 9, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
Not really.
Pahu wrote:
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion.
I agree.
Pahu wrote:
Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing.
Nope.
Pahu wrote:
We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
We'll see if it is following logic.
Pahu wrote:
1. The universe exists.
So far so good.
Pahu wrote:
2. The universe had a beginning.
It appears so. The caveat should be added that we aren't certain that this(universe) is or isn't a singular event, or that it isn't a continuation of an earlier expression, or, that this universe isn't simply a "bubble" that branched off from another universe. The available evidence doesn't support that our universe is a one time, isolated event. That is what the BB is - it is an event that was identified. We simply don't know with certainty what occurred or existed prior to that event.

Which leads to the portion of your statements that abandon logic.
Pahu wrote:
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
Ugh.#3 is an unfounded assumption.
#4-7 are based upon that erroneous assumption. Logic was abandoned #3-7.
Pahu wrote:
8. Life exists.
Back to reality, good.
Pahu wrote:
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
OOPS.. you left logic behind, again.
You did get three right out of the out of the total eleven though~/.
Better luck next time.

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#9
Aug 10, 2012
 
Emily_Young wrote:
<quoted text>
That was logically said, and, to me, was actually quite reasonable, but I have a question: If God created the universe (as "nothing can come from nothing") who created God? Since nothing can come from nothing, where did he spring up from? Nothingness? Or is there another God who created God? Is there a whole line of God-creating Gods creating Gods from nothing? Or is nothing God? And God created it?
It's often the simplest questions that get theists most riled up.

-So what's you're answer to the universe?

Blah god.

-Oh, and what made him?

B..! Damn you, made me realise my religion is a cr*ck of bullsh*t, but instead of changing my ways for the better, I'm gonna insult your upbringing instead and keep lying about god to ppl. That will make me right and god real!

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

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#10
Aug 10, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.”[From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read,“Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.
[From "Reincarnation in the Bible?"]
The flaw is in the form of statement 2, which might be better stated, "The present form of the Universe had a beginning." It is not known for certain what did or did not exist before the rapid expansion known by its misnomer, the Big Bang. It does not logically follow, then, that before the "Big Bang," there was nothing. Given that flaw, none of the statements that follow are logically valid.

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#11
Aug 14, 2012
 

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Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Then what caused this "god" you speak of?
In logic, if you begin with an erroneous premise, you end with an erroneous conclusion, and vise versa.

We live in, among other things, a time dimension where one event follows another. Time passes. Everything ages. Throughout our lives, we learn that effects always have causes. We would be confused if they didn’t. Therefore, it is hard to imagine the first cause, and even harder to imagine what, if anything, preceded “The First Cause.”

Just as God created the universe and everything in it, God also created time. There was a beginning of everything, including space and time. Consequently, God is outside of space and time. This means that God is unchanging (I Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6, Heb 6:17, James 1:17). He had no beginning and has no ending.

Also, and more pertinent to the question, from God’s perspective an effect does not follow a cause. He sees the beginning and the end (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13). Asking who made God before time began reflects a lack of understanding—even though most of us at one time have pondered the question. No one made God; He is infinite and outside of time, and He existed before time began.

Seeing things from God’s infinite perspective is probably as hard for us as it is for a dog or cat to understand what is on this printed page. If God is infinite and we are His finite creations, our limited understanding and perspective should not surprise us.

How else do we know that time began? The Bible is the most widely read book of all time. Within it, the most read page is probably the first page of Genesis. The first three words on that page

“In the beginning ...”

are probably the best-known group of three words of all time—the single, most widely proclaimed idea. By reading the fourth word, one sees that God was there at the beginning.

Another key insight comes from John 1:1.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Again, there was a beginning; we are also told Who was there when time began. Verses 1:2, 3, and 14 clarify these profound events even more.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ... ]

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#12
Aug 14, 2012
 

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Emily_Young wrote:
<quoted text>
That was logically said, and, to me, was actually quite reasonable, but I have a question: If God created the universe (as "nothing can come from nothing") who created God? Since nothing can come from nothing, where did he spring up from? Nothingness? Or is there another God who created God? Is there a whole line of God-creating Gods creating Gods from nothing? Or is nothing God? And God created it?
A number of skeptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical, just like ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’

So a more sophisticated questioner might ask:‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’ In reply, we should use the following reasoning:

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

It’s important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. Therefore, time itself would have begun along with matter and space.

Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity”(Isa. 57:15). Therefore, He doesn’t have a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.

If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever; otherwise, it would already have exhausted all usable energy—the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible.

So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? However, it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause—no one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Therefore, would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house.

In addition, the universe cannot be self-caused—nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

IN SUMMARY

The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.
It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.
The universe therefore requires a cause, just as (Gen. 1:1) and (Rom. 1:20) teach.
God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

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#13
Aug 14, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
<quoted text>
A number of skeptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical, just like ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’
So a more sophisticated questioner might ask:‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’ In reply, we should use the following reasoning:
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
It’s important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. Therefore, time itself would have begun along with matter and space.
Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity”(Isa. 57:15). Therefore, He doesn’t have a cause.
In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.
1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever; otherwise, it would already have exhausted all usable energy—the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible.
So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.
Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? However, it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause—no one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Therefore, would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house.
In addition, the universe cannot be self-caused—nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.
IN SUMMARY
The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.
It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.
The universe therefore requires a cause, just as (Gen. 1:1) and (Rom. 1:20) teach.
God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause.
If the universe needs a creator then the creator needs a creator.
If the creator doesn't need a creator then why should the universe?

Your God is not nothing, he's a something and yes he does need explaining.

“ecrasez l'infame”

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Aug 14, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
Science Proves God
...
So you go out of your way to go into the Atheism forum on Topix to create your own thread. You can't get much more rude than that.

If you are any example of what religion does to a person, I would NEVER want anything to do with whatever drives you to be this rude.

"After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands." ~ Nietzsche
Pahu wrote:
<quoted text>
... the following reasoning:
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
This is the The kalam cosmological argument and has been refuted many time as being childishly illogical.

The curious clause "everything that has a beginning" implies that reality can be divided into two sets: items that have a beginning, and those that do not.

In order for this cosmological argument to work, the set of things that "do not have a beginning" (if such a set is meaningful) cannot be empty, but more important, it must accommodate more than one item to avoid being simply a synonym for God. If God is the only object allowed in "no beginning" set, then "no beginning" is merely a mask for the "God", and the premise "everything that has a beginning has a cause" is equivalent to "everything except God has a cause."

As with the earlier failures, this puts God into the definition of the premise of the argument that is supposed to prove God's existence which is the fallacy of begging the question.

“There is no god!”

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#15
Aug 14, 2012
 

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Pahu wrote:
creationism isn't science!

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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#16
Aug 14, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
Just as God created the universe and everything in it, God also created time.
You like logic, right? For your god to exist, to think, or to act (create), it needs to exist in time. If you want to distinguish it from the time that began with the expansion of the singularity, then call it meta-time.

Also, perfect gods can't change - not their minds, not their Commandments, and not their Testaments.
Pahu wrote:
God is unchanging (I Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6, Heb 6:17, James 1:17).
Says who? If you mean Jehovah-Jesus, his mind is like a circus wheel - changing all the time.
Pahu wrote:
He had no beginning and has no ending.
Even if that were so, it is not the same as unchanging. And existing implies time.
Pahu wrote:
God’s perspective an effect does not follow a cause.
And Jack traded his cow for magic beans. Whatever you say.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

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#17
Aug 14, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
He sees the beginning and the end (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13).
You do understand that your bible is not an authoritative source to a skeptic, do you not?
Pahu wrote:
Asking who made God before time began reflects a lack of understanding—even though most of us at one time have pondered the question.
Is that so? I'd say you entire post here shows a lack of understanding about what existence, thought, creation and change entail: time.
Pahu wrote:
Seeing things from God’s infinite perspective is probably as hard for us as it is for a dog or cat to understand what is on this printed page.
Because our minds are too puny, right?
Pahu wrote:
If God is infinite and we are His finite creations, our limited understanding and perspective should not surprise us.
And if your god is a self-contradictory mythological creature, your comments shouldn't surprise us, either.
Pahu wrote:
“In the beginning ...” are probably the best-known group of three words of all time
Not "Once upon a time"?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#18
Aug 14, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe
That's not my definition. And defining it that way - special pleading - suggests that it doesn't exist.

My definition of a god or race of gods is merely the creator(s) of our universe - nothing more. Anything that did or can do that is a god, even if created, even if evolved, even if mortal, even if finite, even if imperfect. You don't get to rule any of that out by fiat.
Pahu wrote:
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
We don't know that. It's an induction based on experience with relatively small objects - up to galaxies - in the universe
Pahu wrote:
The universe has a beginning.

You don't know that, either. The universe needn't have a beginning, just its present expansion.

[QUOTE who="Pahu"]Therefore , the universe has a cause.
Your premises are invalid.

And even if they weren't, and even if this conclusion were sound, you still have no reason but desire to posit a person. If ours is not an infinitely existing and banging-crunching universe, perhaps it arose from branes or a multiverse. Both are infinitely simpler than gods. Occam would approve.
Pahu wrote:
... from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences. 1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. 2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
You'd better stick with philosophastering. If you want to invoke science, your argument is dead in the water, because the community of scientists disagrees with you. If you can't convince them, you can't convince me. There is nothing true that only Christians know. Nothing. In fact, when a claim is made ONLY by Christians, it's Christian propaganda.

[Kalam cosmological argument refuted: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php... ]

Since: Dec 08

Athens, AL

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#19
Aug 20, 2012
 

Judged:

2

2

[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.

[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] We don't know that. It's an induction based on experience with relatively small objects - up to galaxies - in the universe

[b] Pahu:[/b] If can’t use induction based on experience, how are we to arrive at the truth?

[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
The universe has a beginning.

[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] You don't know that, either. The universe needn't have a beginning, just its present expansion.

[b] Pahu:[/b] The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.

[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
Therefore , the universe has a cause.

[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] Your premises are invalid.

And even if they weren't, and even if this conclusion were sound, you still have no reason but desire to posit a person. If ours is not an infinitely existing and banging-crunching universe, perhaps it arose from branes or a multiverse. Both are infinitely simpler than gods. Occam would approve.

[b] Pahu:[/b] I don’t know what branes are, but even if there are multiuniverses, we would still have a beginning before which there was nothing. From nothing the universe appeared. Something does not come from nothing by any natural cause, therefore the cause must be supernatural.

[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
... from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences. 1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. 2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.

[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] You'd better stick with philosophastering. If you want to invoke science, your argument is dead in the water, because the community of scientists disagrees with you. If you can't convince them, you can't convince me. There is nothing true that only Christians know. Nothing. In fact, when a claim is made ONLY by Christians, it's Christian propaganda.

[b]Pahu:[/b] The community of scientists disagrees with the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics?
The serpent was right

Fogelsville, PA

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#20
Aug 20, 2012
 
Pahu wrote:
[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] We don't know that. It's an induction based on experience with relatively small objects - up to galaxies - in the universe
[b] Pahu:[/b] If can’t use induction based on experience, how are we to arrive at the truth?
[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
The universe has a beginning.
[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] You don't know that, either. The universe needn't have a beginning, just its present expansion.
[b] Pahu:[/b] The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.
All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.
[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
Therefore , the universe has a cause.
[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] Your premises are invalid.
And even if they weren't, and even if this conclusion were sound, you still have no reason but desire to posit a person. If ours is not an infinitely existing and banging-crunching universe, perhaps it arose from branes or a multiverse. Both are infinitely simpler than gods. Occam would approve.
[b] Pahu:[/b] I don’t know what branes are, but even if there are multiuniverses, we would still have a beginning before which there was nothing. From nothing the universe appeared. Something does not come from nothing by any natural cause, therefore the cause must be supernatural.
[b] Pahu wrote:[/b]
... from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences. 1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. 2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
[b]It Ain’t Necessarily So:[/b] You'd better stick with philosophastering. If you want to invoke science, your argument is dead in the water, because the community of scientists disagrees with you. If you can't convince them, you can't convince me. There is nothing true that only Christians know. Nothing. In fact, when a claim is made ONLY by Christians, it's Christian propaganda.
[b]Pahu:[/b] The community of scientists disagrees with the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics?
It is obvious that you are speaking of the bible god. Since the bible states that god created man in his image, than god would have to have an image. For god to have an image, than he would have to be made of matter. Since you claim to adhere to science, than you cannot claim that god is supernatural. Science does not recognise the supernatural. In other words, since you claim god exists, it is up to you to provide the evidence of that existance. Simply saying that since we cannot explain what existed before 'our' universe existed that means that there must be a god, is illogical, and still provides zero evidence that god exists. Also, since you are climing that god is material, than he would, by your assertion, have had to have been created. He is, according to the bible matter, and all matter, according to you, has to have been created.

Please present your scientific evidence of a god, without the fallcy of "we don't know so that proves there is a god". Ignorance of one thing is never proof of another.

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