Missouri Passes Right-to-Pray Amendment

Aug 21, 2012 Full story: abcnews.go.com 148

Reiterating a protected right under the U.S. Constitution, on Tuesday Missouri voters overwhelmingly approved an amendment to the state constitution reiterating individuals' right to pray publicly and in schools.

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Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#123 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
I never made such a claim. As I said before, review my posts on this thread, and then quote any post where I stated a claim for the existence of a creator or where I stated that “I don’t know how the universe started, so it must have been a creator”.
That's your challenge. If you can't find where I've made a claim for a creator, and you continue to insist that I have even after I have corrected you, then you are intentionally lying.
<quoted text>
I haven't been dishonest at all, but you sure have. You have no evidence to offer that disproves my position and are now resorting to prevarication. Pathetic.
From your post: "The question really boils down this: Either the universe itself has always existed (is itself eternal), or it was brought into existence by a supernatural power or being."

As you are dening that the universe has always existed, than you are claiming a creator.

That was easy.

Next question: Do you know how the universe started?
If you do not answer, than you are being dishonest.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#124 Aug 27, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
What a waste of legislation, no one has said that the students cannot pray, just that the school cannot endorse prayer because then the school would have to endorse a specific religion and thus it would break the law.
Missouri is proving to be clueless.
well, 36% at least of Mo Republicans are, by nominating Akin for senate. We will see soon enough about the whole state. I identify as an Iowan, and feel I am descending into the South when I go into Missouri - and South in the worst stereotype of it.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#125 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. Atheism denies the existence of any supernatural being, deity or otherwise. Therefore, your premise is faulty as is the conclusions you draw from it.
All that is necessary to defeat atheism to to prove the existence of a supernatural force or being. Because you atheists are unable to overcome the simple proofs I put forth on this thread, you realize that the faith based nature of your view has been exposed and it pisses you off. In response you attack using red herrings, strawmen, and outright lies. All of that is nothing new, I've seen it many times before.
*yawn*
Making up you own definition for atheism and then taking shots at it is called a straw man fallacy.

Atheism is most basically defined as "a disbelief in the existence of deity" (Webster).

Literally, a-theism is 'not theism' and is a category to differentiate those that have a belief in one or more deity (theists) from those that don't (a-theists).

What ever you add to this is meaningless hand waving that just serves to show everybody your true nature.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#126 Aug 27, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
From your post: "The question really boils down this: Either the universe itself has always existed (is itself eternal), or it was brought into existence by a supernatural power or being."
As you are dening that the universe has always existed, than you are claiming a creator.
That was easy.
Next question: Do you know how the universe started?
If you do not answer, than you are being dishonest.
any chance either of you would care to compromise on the correct answer: I do not know, I doubt if anyone knows, I doubt if anyone will ever know. In the meantime, let's get along despite our differing views, and try to make the world a better place for now and the longterm future, instead of hoping for endtimes and Armageddon.

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#127 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
Those are good questions, but they go much farther than the discussion at hand.
You may notice that a house has been recently painted and enter into a discussion about whether it painted itself or if someone painted it. If someone offers you proof that the house was painted by someone, musing about where the painter got the paint and brushes to do the job is far beyond the matter at hand. And such are your questions above, musing about the nature and characteristics of the supernatural force or being that logic demands brought the universe into existence.
If you indeed are truly interested in the topic, you might benefit from studying Plato's uncaused first cause. As for this thread, try to stay on point.
I am making them relevent to the discussion.
If you cannot answer, than you fail to make your point. Your assertion that science dictates a supernatural cause or being for the universe has been debunked. The most simple reason being that science NEVER EVER asserts anything supernatural. I have asked you several times to provide a link that shows any scientific assertion for the supernatural, and you have failed to comply. No such link exists. Period. What you have presented is foolish gibberish that is unscientific, and illogical. You continue to look foolish by trying to avoid the inevitable questions that the garbage mythology that you are trying to pass off here require. You lose godbot. Face it.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#128 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope. As they say, American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
Southern privileged white male, maybe?

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#129 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
I never made such a claim. As I said before, review my posts on this thread, and then quote any post where I stated a claim for the existence of a creator or where I stated that “I don’t know how the universe started, so it must have been a creator”.
That's your challenge. If you can't find where I've made a claim for a creator, and you continue to insist that I have even after I have corrected you, then you are intentionally lying.
<quoted text>
I haven't been dishonest at all, but you sure have. You have no evidence to offer that disproves my position and are now resorting to prevarication. Pathetic.
Oh, if you are asking for evidence of a negative, please grow up. Basically you are claiming that a supernatural being exists, than trying to require evidence that it doesn't exist!! Sorry, that childish and illogical, but again, that is your whole "Goddidit" mindset isn't it?

Next you'll try to prove that Christ was a real person!!! LOL!!!!!!
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#130 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
You said yourself that “Until there is a *lot* more evidence, I will not consider them to be proven.” That’s my point. There are unproven theories that you and others cling to while rejecting known, proven scientific law and foundational maxims of logic. Like I told you, I simply don’t have the requisite amount of faith required to abandon what I know to be true and join in holding to fantastical theories that you readily admit need a “lot” more evidence to even be considered proven.
You have yet to offer any evidence, not merely what appears so in observation, that a body at rest can propel itself into motion. Until you do that, you haven’t negated Newton’s First Law of Motion.
<quoted text>
Casimir, like you, ASSUME spontaneous generation, it doesn’t offer any evidence to support it. It’s based on an observation. And as I pointed out to you ad nauseum, it is entirely possible that an unobserved cause exists. In fact, logic dictates the existence of such a cause.
Here you’re claiming Casimir negates ex nihilo, nihil fit, yet Casimir offers no evidence to prove spontaneous generation, it merely notes that is what appears to be occurring. You want to believe what your eyes see and abandon what your brain knows to be true. Again, I don’t have enough faith in my observations to join you in abandoning reason and logic.
You have yet to offer any evidence that matter and energy can generate themselves into existence. Until you do that, you haven’t negated ex nihilo, nihil fit.
We can continue ad infinitum, but I choose not to. I’ve said my peace, you’ve said yours. I’ll stick with what I know to be true and leave you to cling to what you openly admit are unproven ideas.
You’re welcome to have the last word.
what is the unobserved cause you think that logic dictates? I am not wanting to get into the intricacies of the science debate. were you implying some supernatural force?

I am more of an agnostic about science than polymath is - I think that more is not known for sure - but a complete agnostic and atheist about all the supernatural forces. I am really content with not knowing. What matters is ethics, and practical understanding that is needed for action. both science and religion have gone too far out, and we need to concentrate on being kind to others, and getting all the information we need in order to be effectively kind, to others (including animals and plants and ecosystems and the planet) and to ourselves, in the long run.

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#131 Aug 27, 2012
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> any chance either of you would care to compromise on the correct answer: I do not know, I doubt if anyone knows, I doubt if anyone will ever know. In the meantime, let's get along despite our differing views, and try to make the world a better place for now and the longterm future, instead of hoping for endtimes and Armageddon.
I am not offering a correct answer.
He is making a positive claim that he can't back up. There is no compromise.
I don't compromise on the bullshit, trash science, mythology that he is offering.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#132 Aug 27, 2012
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Making up you own definition for atheism and then taking shots at it is called a straw man fallacy.
Atheism is most basically defined as "a disbelief in the existence of deity" (Webster).
Literally, a-theism is 'not theism' and is a category to differentiate those that have a belief in one or more deity (theists) from those that don't (a-theists).
What ever you add to this is meaningless hand waving that just serves to show everybody your true nature.
very good reply to guest. I have almost always liked your comments except when you think Skeptic is an OK person. you are fine when you debunk the believers who do not clearly admit their beliefs, and when they falsely state the beliefs of others. just please be consistent and also dislike an atheist who falsely accuses others, and we will be on good terms. I really like your quotes on the great quotes thread.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#133 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
You said yourself that “Until there is a *lot* more evidence, I will not consider them to be proven.” That’s my point.[(QUOTE]

Mine, too. And I hold you to the same standard: Until there is a *lot* more evidence, I will not consider Jesus to be proven, and I am not interested in any unproven speculations about him. You need proof positive: logically rigorous, undeniable, smoking gun proof.

Until you do, get that Jesus speculation out of here. Magic violates Newton and ex nihilo.

Or did you have a second standard for kind of speculation?

[QUOTE who="guest"] Like I told you, I simply don’t have the requisite amount of faith required to abandon what I know to be true and join in holding to fantastical theories that you readily admit need a “lot” more evidence to even be considered proven.
Me, too!
guest wrote:
You have yet to offer any evidence
Why is that a deal killer for a faither like you? You should have no trouble accepting any claim without it.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#134 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
I never made such a claim. As I said before, review my posts on this thread, and then quote any post where I stated a claim for the existence of a creator or where I stated that “I don’t know how the universe started, so it must have been a creator”.
Do you deny Jesus?
guest wrote:
That's your challenge. If you can't find where I've made a claim for a creator, and you continue to insist that I have even after I have corrected you, then you are intentionally lying.
If you're not a Christian, then you should have no problem blaspheming the "holy" spook. Show us how wrong we are.
guest wrote:
I haven't been dishonest at all
You are ashamed to confess that you are a Christian. I don't blame you. Jesus is embarrassing.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#135 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
All that is necessary to defeat atheism to to prove the existence of a supernatural force or being.
Your sophistry isn't fooling anybody. You can't invalidate atheism without producing a god, and you will never do either of those.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#136 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
Those are good questions, but they go much farther than the discussion at hand.
Nonsense. That isn't your call.
guest wrote:
As for this thread, try to stay on point.
We define what that is collectively, not you alone.

What are you hiding from? Are you ashamed of your faith, or is it Jesus that you are ashamed of?

“The eye has it...”

Since: Jan 12

Russell's teapot.

#137 Aug 27, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Nonsense. That isn't your call.
<quoted text>
We define what that is collectively, not you alone.
What are you hiding from? Are you ashamed of your faith, or is it Jesus that you are ashamed of?
''

I say it's both.

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#138 Aug 27, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Nonsense. That isn't your call.
<quoted text>
We define what that is collectively, not you alone.
What are you hiding from? Are you ashamed of your faith, or is it Jesus that you are ashamed of?
What I find simply too funny is that he says "try to stay on point", when it was he that came on a thread titled "Missouri Passes Right-to-Pray Amendment", and starts a discussion about the beginning of the universe. LOL!!! The hypocrisy of these godbots never ceases to amaze me!!

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#139 Aug 27, 2012
guest wrote:
I haven't been dishonest at all, but you sure have. You have no evidence to offer that disproves my position and are now resorting to prevarication. Pathetic.
What on earth makes you think we have to disprove your position? I'll make the claim that I have an invisible 10 foot kitten in my back yard. Prove me wrong.

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#140 Aug 27, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
What I find simply too funny is that he says "try to stay on point", when it was he that came on a thread titled "Missouri Passes Right-to-Pray Amendment", and starts a discussion about the beginning of the universe. LOL!!! The hypocrisy of these godbots never ceases to amaze me!!
Hold on Serp. Maybe guest got his/her education in Missouri.

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#141 Aug 27, 2012
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> any chance either of you would care to compromise on the correct answer: I do not know, I doubt if anyone knows, I doubt if anyone will ever know. In the meantime, let's get along despite our differing views, and try to make the world a better place for now and the longterm future, instead of hoping for endtimes and Armageddon.
There's no compromise to be had here HF. People are entitled to make up their own opinions but not their own facts.

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#142 Aug 27, 2012
madscot wrote:
<quoted text>
Hold on Serp. Maybe guest got his/her education in Missouri.
Well that WOULD explain a few things!!

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