There's probably no God

Full story: Canada.com

Atheists have started advertising. The most talked about ad campaign in England, now plastered across the outside of 800 British buses, declares: "There's probably no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life." The campaign opened last week with rousing speeches by Richard Dawkins and representatives of the British Humanist Association, after a ...
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“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

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#4929
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
If a laptop PC was smuggled into the Kalahari desert and left out in the open for a bushman to find, what do you think the bushman would make of it?
It obviously is complex in design. Does that therefore mean that the gods sent it?.
Come on, Dave. If a bushman found a Dell in the desert...or in his dessert, even the bushman would know it didn't just assemble itself. It would have the be the result of intelligent design. What I hear you saying...and please correct me if I am wrong...is that you DO believe in ID, but you believe time & nature are the designers.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4930
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Michael in Ocoee wrote:
How can you, in all sincerity, look at the complexity of this and believe it "just happened" through time and chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flagellum_b...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum
OK, so you don't believe in God. I would think, at the very least, that you must believe in miracles.
Here are two corollary arguments:

Take a very close look at an animal that has been killed and gutted by another animal which is consuming it. Is that not beautiful to watch? Ah, God is great!

And when the killer has eaten his fill, and the maggots finish the job, isn't that just GORGEOUS? Especially on a hot summer day, when the maggots are feasting, and the scent of that rotting flesh fills the air. Mmmmm, breathe that in and rejoice in God, who created that lovely aroma for YOU.

Yes, God loved his creation so much, he made the birds and the fish and all the animals in such a way that man and woman would find pleasure in them., even when they die and decompose and stink to the point that you vomit if you get close enough.

Second argument: miracles.

Miracles have been documented and verified in non-Christian cultures. Is that therefore evidence of other gods?

Why would your God, if he wants you to believe that he is the one true god, perform miracles among people who pray to Allah, Krishna, or some other deity?

One possible answer is that Satan is at work in those cultures, trying to keep people away from following your god.

The problem with that is, some of these miracles are beneficial and healing, so why would Satan perform good deeds?

Also, how can you know for sure that Satan isn't performing the miracles ascribed to YOUR god? You can't know, can you? There's no way to discern which supernatural being is performing which miracle.

All deities answer prayers, so again, how do you reach the conclusion that your god is the one true god?

Only a religious bigot would insist that the miracles performed by the Christian god are real, and that all others are either hoaxes or the work of demons.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

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#4931
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
In Genesis 1 God creates birds and fish and the other animals before man and woman.
Then again, in Genesis 2 God creates Adam, then birds and fish and animals, then Eve.
So either man and woman weren't God's first choice, or woman alone wasn't.
Gee it sucks to be female, eh? Amazing how many women accept the misogynistic tenets of the Bible.
Heavy sigh...

Not even gonna attempt this one. Off to the store to buy some intelligently designed groceries.:-)

Come on, grilled steak with sauteed mushrooms and fried onions and a little cajun seasoning on top? There HAS to be a God!
Paul WV

United States

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#4932
Jul 26, 2009
 

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The Heathen wrote:
<quoted text>
Occam's razor disagrees.
<quoted text>
Lying for jebus is STILL lying.
<quoted text>
Again, I refer you to Occam's razor. The logical argument that when given two possibilities, the simplest of the two is the most acceptable. Religion, regardless of the particular cult or worshiped juju only raises more questions, while answering none, or at the very least "assuming mythological and fantastical answers".
To steal an analogy from the medical books, you hear hoof beats, do you think zebra?
The argument is not whether we can prove a God exist, but the claim: "There's is probably no God." This claim can not be substantiated by science. In fact science is losing the battle through science. The Boltzmann Brain Paradox says that it's more probable that there is one giant disembodied brain than the myriad of little brains we now see in the world. It is more probable that the world we live in is an illusion than it being real. Now this is scientists saying this; not philosophers.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4933
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Paul WV wrote:
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Nope! You claim is: "There's probably no God." I say prove your claim. I say: "There's probably a God." I argue from design, what do you argue from?
Hi Paul, are you sitting down? Good, because it's going to be a rough ride.

Let's say that anything that is complex must have a more complex designer. For this to be absolutely true, it must be true in all cases.

Case 1: A laptop computer is very complex, therefore it must have been created by an even more complex thing. That thing is "man."

Case 2: A man is a very complex thing (women are even MORE complex, but that's another topic!), therefore man must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "God."

Case 3: God is an extremely complex thing, therefore God must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "X."

Case 4: X is an extremely complex thing, therefore X must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "Y."

And so on, ad infinitum, because for this to be absolutely true, it must be true in ALL cases.

So your God must have been created by something even greater than your God. If your God is an EXCEPTION, then your entire argument, "anything that is complex must have a more complex designer" is rendered false.

Let me know when you have digested that, and we'll continue...

... ready? Good.

Even if your God exists, and even if you agree that your God was created by something greater, we still have a huge problem: you now have to prove that your God is the God depicted in the Bible.

For that to be true, then the things ascribed to your God in the Bible must be true.

But they aren't.

Your God allegedly created day and night BEFORE he created the sun. That's impossible.

Your God allegedly created vegetation on Earth BEFORE he created the sun, That's impossible also.

Your God allegedly created the Earth as a flat disc, around which the Sun orbits. That's totally untrue, as we know thanks to modern astronomy.

So, even if there is a being that created mankind, that being CANNOT be the God of the Bible.

Therefore, your particular God probably does NOT exist. In fact, based on the characteristics that Christians claim belong to their God, it is a FACT that that God does not exist, for were it to exist we'd have to deny everything we know about the sun and its effect on Earth.

When the feeling comes back in your legs, you may want to take a stroll outside and take in all the natural beauty.

Isn't nature wonderful?
Easter Bunny

Arroyo Seco, NM

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#4934
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
Your response is a confession of you mind set too. Until you can prove there are other universes in which the anthropic principle does not hold and man is here by accident, man remains the center of the universe. This gives credence to the probability there is a God in accordance with Christian belief.
And again your demonstrate that you have no idea what the Anthropic Principle is.

In NO WAY does this principle or any other require that we prove the existence and nature of alternate universes otherwise your favorite superstition is made true.

But the fact that you build the foundation of your belief system in this manner just lays bare either your lack of intellectual honesty or your lack of reasoning skills, or some combination thereof.

Further attempts by you to misstate the Anthropic Principle will change nothing in reality.

And your subsequent confessions of how you repeatedly fall for the fallacy of false dilemma do nothing to support any of your claims.

But since you don't seem to know how to detect cases of that fallacy, let me explain. Your position is like making this argument: I've narrowed the choices for the killer of Abe Lincoln. It is either a guy named Paul WV or some space alien named "Grok" from the invisible planet that directly precedes ours in our orbit around the Sun. So, if I can shoot holes in the claim that such a planet exists, I have proven that Paul was the killer. According to your the argument form that you use over and over again, the proof of your guilt is pretty solid and we should generally accept it as true.
ScienceRules

Plainfield, VT

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#4935
Jul 26, 2009
 

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What moron thinks the thread title, "There's is probably no God." is a scientific claim? It is as statement based on probability theory applied to all we know about the natural world and the causes of things. The probability of a god approaches zero when objectively evaluated.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4936
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Michael in Ocoee wrote:
<quoted text>
Come on, Dave. If a bushman found a Dell in the desert...or in his dessert, even the bushman would know it didn't just assemble itself. It would have the be the result of intelligent design. What I hear you saying...and please correct me if I am wrong...is that you DO believe in ID, but you believe time & nature are the designers.
Did I say the bushman would think it assembled itself? No, I said he would believe that it was created by God.

If you want to have an honest debate, don't put words in my mouth, or the gloves will come off.

I do NOT believe in "intelligent" design. Nature is not "intelligent" Nature doesn't have a brain, nor does it have a grand design.

Nature tries things out, based on environment, survival, etc.

The things that work, nature keeps doing.

The ones that don't become extinct.

You HAVE heard of extinction, yes? Do you have any clue why species become extinct? Even species that live nowhere near man become extinct, so neither man nor man's byproducts (pollution, overpopulation, disease, etc.) cause those species to become extinct.

The bushman doesn't know he is ignorant, but WE do. We have the advantage because we have a superior purview.

However, in MY purview, YOU are one step up from the bushman. You cannot see what I see, just as the bushman cannot see what YOU see regarding him.

If you were up here with me, your eyes would open and you'd cast off your delusions.

Care to join me? I can loan you a ladder, but I want it back by Friday...
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4937
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Michael in Ocoee wrote:
<quoted text>
Heavy sigh...
Not even gonna attempt this one. Off to the store to buy some intelligently designed groceries.:-)
Come on, grilled steak with sauteed mushrooms and fried onions and a little cajun seasoning on top? There HAS to be a God!
LOL!

The way to a man's atheism is NOT through his stomach, but I WILL bring the beer!
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4938
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Speaking of intelligently designed groceries, ugly fruit pretty much shoots down THAT theory!

And whoever designed the pomegranate, could you please make it just a LITTLE BIT HARDER to get the nutritious stuff out?

8>)
Easter Bunny

Arroyo Seco, NM

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#4939
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
The argument from design, that has been used from the beginning, has not been disproven by science. The Anthropic Principle gives the universe a purpose from the theist point of view. So you can not say there is not the slightest bit of evidence to suggest there is no God. Evolution does not prove there is not a designer, guiding the direction evolution.
OK, so again using your argument form:

Since you cannot prove that The Flying Spaghetti Monster (sauce be upon him) us the ruler of the cosmos, the only sensible thing to do is accept that he is the ruler of the cosmos.

And if you applied your line of reasoning to all other religious claims, then you'd have to accept all of them as true. There is no criteria for rejection in your scheme except your arbitrary choice.

Since many religious claims conflict with others, it is not possible that they're all true, but using your reasoning, they all MUST be true because they cannot be disproved.

To any person with the slightest schooling or practice in logic, this situation shows that the flaw is with the line of reasoning that creates a nonsense outcome.

In that, we can see that you're just grasping at straws. If your faith was strong, there would be no need of reasoning and argumentation.

From here, it looks like the reason you keep reciting nonsense is that you're actually too smart to believe it, but you've failed to grasp that repeating lies doesn't make them true.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4940
Jul 26, 2009
 

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If fruits and vegetables were designed by God, then why did it take man to put the orange in oranges and carrots, and why are some genetically re-engineered vegetables and fruits more beneficial than the ones the Green Grocer In The Sky allegedly designed?

FYI - extra points if you knew that man, not God, made domestic carrots orange. Extra EXTRA points if you knew the Dutch were responsible.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4941
Jul 26, 2009
 

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By the way, if anyone would like to tackle the problem of Genesis 1 and 2 positing two very different orders in which man, beasts, and vegetation were created, have at it...
Easter Bunny

Arroyo Seco, NM

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#4942
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Michael in Ocoee wrote:
<quoted text>
Heavy sigh...
Not even gonna attempt this one. Off to the store to buy some intelligently designed groceries.:-)
Come on, grilled steak with sauteed mushrooms and fried onions and a little cajun seasoning on top? There HAS to be a God!
Hey, no problem. You haven't made any serious attempt to directly address any of the questions put to you or any of your assertions that have been challenged, so why would anybody expect you to start now? You're just here throwing grenades of irrationality that you learned in Fundie School.
Easter Bunny

Arroyo Seco, NM

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#4943
Jul 26, 2009
 
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
The argument from design is evidence there is a God. Evolution does not prove there is no God guiding it to some degree.
I wish I had seen this message first, before replying to the others.

Are you a first-semester philosophy or theology student?
Easter Bunny

Arroyo Seco, NM

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#4944
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Paul WV wrote:
How? Go by what I post and not by what I believe. What I believe is irrelevant to the facts.
The Heathen wrote:
<quoted text>
If a schizophrenic told you something, you would be less inclined to believe its veracity.
But why would you expect a fundie to know even know what "veracity" is? As if he'd have any interest in such a concept.
Paul WV

United States

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#4945
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Paul, are you sitting down? Good, because it's going to be a rough ride.
Let's say that anything that is complex must have a more complex designer. For this to be absolutely true, it must be true in all cases.
Case 1: A laptop computer is very complex, therefore it must have been created by an even more complex thing. That thing is "man."
Case 2: A man is a very complex thing (women are even MORE complex, but that's another topic!), therefore man must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "God."
Case 3: God is an extremely complex thing, therefore God must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "X."
Case 4: X is an extremely complex thing, therefore X must have been created by an even MORE complex thing. That thing is "Y."
And so on, ad infinitum, because for this to be absolutely true, it must be true in ALL cases.
So your God must have been created by something even greater than your God. If your God is an EXCEPTION, then your entire argument, "anything that is complex must have a more complex designer" is rendered false.
Let me know when you have digested that, and we'll continue...
... ready? Good.
Even if your God exists, and even if you agree that your God was created by something greater, we still have a huge problem: you now have to prove that your God is the God depicted in the Bible.
For that to be true, then the things ascribed to your God in the Bible must be true.
But they aren't.
Your God allegedly created day and night BEFORE he created the sun. That's impossible.
Your God allegedly created vegetation on Earth BEFORE he created the sun, That's impossible also.
Your God allegedly created the Earth as a flat disc, around which the Sun orbits. That's totally untrue, as we know thanks to modern astronomy.
So, even if there is a being that created mankind, that being CANNOT be the God of the Bible.
Therefore, your particular God probably does NOT exist. In fact, based on the characteristics that Christians claim belong to their God, it is a FACT that that God does not exist, for were it to exist we'd have to deny everything we know about the sun and its effect on Earth.
When the feeling comes back in your legs, you may want to take a stroll outside and take in all the natural beauty.
Isn't nature wonderful?
Do you have a hang up with the Bible? Did I say anything about the Bible? If you don't even know if God exists, how can you assign any attributes to Him? The claim is: "There's probably no God." That is the claim that you need to prove. Now give me a scientific argument that supports this claim.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

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#4946
Jul 26, 2009
 

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Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
Speaking of intelligently designed groceries, ugly fruit pretty much shoots down THAT theory!
And whoever designed the pomegranate, could you please make it just a LITTLE BIT HARDER to get the nutritious stuff out?
8>)
OK...OK, you have me on the pomegranate. I must say that has been your strongest argument so far. ;-)

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

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#4947
Jul 26, 2009
 
Easter Bunny wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, no problem. You haven't made any serious attempt to directly address any of the questions put to you or any of your assertions that have been challenged, so why would anybody expect you to start now? You're just here throwing grenades of irrationality that you learned in Fundie School.
That is because you have yet to ask me a serious question. Besides. You are too angry. I am here to have a friendly debate to hone my skills. There. I ratted myself out. Don't think for once second that I aspire to change any of your minds. I am just on here trying to find someone with something more substantive than telling me I am too stupid to understand reality....blah...blah...blah. ... You gotta bring it much stronger than that. AND, you have to be respectful. I haven't called anyone here stupid, nor do I intend to. So if you want a serious response from me, pose a serious, respectful question. If the best you got is to insult my intelligence, you'll hear crickets out of me. THEN, you can lie to yourself by thinking I didn't respond to you because you have me stumped. So if you want to try again EB, I am right here. You respect me and I will respect you and we'll have a good debate.

Now...Dave? Kinda angry and condescending too, but he is starting to grow on me. Very gloomy outlook though. That whole maggot post. Eich! But at least he is "bringing it" the last few posts.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

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#4948
Jul 26, 2009
 
Michael in Ocoee wrote:
<quoted text>
OK...OK, you have me on the pomegranate. I must say that has been your strongest argument so far. ;-)
LOL

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