There's probably no God

Atheists have started advertising. The most talked about ad campaign in England, now plastered across the outside of 800 British buses, declares: "There's probably no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life." The campaign opened last week with rousing speeches by Richard Dawkins and representatives of the British Humanist Association, after a ... Full Story

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#4910 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
The argument from design is evidence there is a God. Evolution does not prove there is no God guiding it to some degree.
what ever would you hold up as evidence of design?
Paul WV

United States

#4911 Jul 26, 2009
nina wrote:
<quoted text>
random selection
random mutation
random population stessors that allow those with adaptions to thrive over others
are you seeing a theme?
random means no design
evolution is not directed,
it's reactive, not proactive
You have not proven it is not directed; that is a false premise. What proof you have it is not to some degree directed?
Paul WV

United States

#4912 Jul 26, 2009
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
what ever would you hold up as evidence of design?
The universe around you! The Anthropic Principle was the starting point and man the final product.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

#4913 Jul 26, 2009
Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, excuse me, Mr. Ivy League - you wrote, "I ARE Ivy League Educated."
Why do I not believe you?
Woops. My bad.

I is Ivy League eductated. I didn't lead with that, by the way. It was a response to being called semi-illiterate. Wasn't wearing it on my sleeve, so Michael or MIO is fine.:-)
jack13

United States

#4914 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
Your response is a confession of you mind set too. Until you can prove there are other universes in which the anthropic principle does not hold and man is here by accident, man remains the center of the universe. This gives credence to the probability there is a God in accordance with Christian belief.
If man was gods chosen creature on earth, what took him so long to get around to humans? Perhaps some other creature was his choice of his cratures? Many other longer living creatures come to mind. dinosaurs existed much long on earth than humans. Is it possible he goofed. Insects existed before dinosaurs, and are still present. Is it possible that when we die out, insects will be gods next chosen creature? I can imagine some insect that has gain a larger brain telling other insects, "We are gods chosen creatures." We can now see back in time as well as seeing the results of that vision. There are a lot of theories that, at the present time, cannot be proven by science, except by mathmatical theories of what is possible. The problem with the idea that there is an intellegent design is there is absolutely nothing that truely indicates his existence. This includes Brandon' Carter's Anthropic principle. Science assumes all phenomena are assured natural. Religion has no place in science since it believes everything is preordained created by a god that is immaterial. I think the term is that it was the benevolent hand of god that created man.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

#4915 Jul 26, 2009
How can you, in all sincerity, look at the complexity of this and believe it "just happened" through time and chance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flagellum_b...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum

OK, so you don't believe in God. I would think, at the very least, that you must believe in miracles.
Paul WV

United States

#4916 Jul 26, 2009
jack13 wrote:
<quoted text> If man was gods chosen creature on earth, what took him so long to get around to humans? Perhaps some other creature was his choice of his cratures? Many other longer living creatures come to mind. dinosaurs existed much long on earth than humans. Is it possible he goofed. Insects existed before dinosaurs, and are still present. Is it possible that when we die out, insects will be gods next chosen creature? I can imagine some insect that has gain a larger brain telling other insects, "We are gods chosen creatures." We can now see back in time as well as seeing the results of that vision. There are a lot of theories that, at the present time, cannot be proven by science, except by mathmatical theories of what is possible. The problem with the idea that there is an intellegent design is there is absolutely nothing that truely indicates his existence. This includes Brandon' Carter's Anthropic principle. Science assumes all phenomena are assured natural. Religion has no place in science since it believes everything is preordained created by a god that is immaterial. I think the term is that it was the benevolent hand of god that created man.
We are talking about "There's probably no God"; which science has not establish by any means. The evidence for God is in the world around us: design!

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#4917 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
The argument from design, that has been used from the beginning, has not been disproven by science. The Anthropic Principle gives the universe a purpose from the theist point of view. So you can not say there is not the slightest bit of evidence to suggest there is no God. Evolution does not prove there is not a designer, guiding the direction evolution.
The Arguments Requiring Design...T.A.R.D

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#4918 Jul 26, 2009
Michael in Ocoee wrote:
How can you, in all sincerity, look at the complexity of this and believe it "just happened" through time and chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flagellum_b...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum
OK, so you don't believe in God. I would think, at the very least, that you must believe in miracles.
Let's just assume that your design theory is correct.

To what god do you give credit for the design?

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#4919 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
Poor argument!
Your argument boiled down to...

Maybe one day science will discover god...therefore god exists.

Yes, you gave a very poor argument.

“Is that necessary?”

Since: Feb 09

Where I was born

#4920 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
<quoted text>
How? Go by what I post and not by what I believe. What I believe is irrelevant to the facts.
If a schizophrenic told you something, you would be less inclined to believe its veracity.

“Is that necessary?”

Since: Feb 09

Where I was born

#4921 Jul 26, 2009
Paul WV wrote:
...Science has so far not given any proof suporting the claim of this thread that "There's probably no God."
Occam's razor disagrees.
Evidence from science, if anything, is moving more towards saying "There's probably is a God."
Lying for jebus is STILL lying.
The Big Bang theory does not prove "There' probably no God." The Antropic Principle does not prove "There's probably no God." The theory of evolution does not prove "There's probably no God." The Boltzman Brain Paradox does not prove "There's probably no God." Now tell me what proves "There's probably no God."
Again, I refer you to Occam's razor. The logical argument that when given two possibilities, the simplest of the two is the most acceptable. Religion, regardless of the particular cult or worshiped juju only raises more questions, while answering none, or at the very least "assuming mythological and fantastical answers".

To steal an analogy from the medical books, you hear hoof beats, do you think zebra?

“Is that necessary?”

Since: Feb 09

Where I was born

#4922 Jul 26, 2009
Chairman Sid wrote:
This is a ridiculous argument, since the existence of god has never been irrefutably proven in the first place how can anyone possibly prove the nonexistence of the not yet proven to exist. Show us the irrefutable, tangible, demonstrable, in your face, here and now proof of the existence of god first and then Iíll give you 45 reasons why that is a crock of shit, until then, put up or shut up because you have no credibility. The onus is on the claimant of existence because until something has been proven to exist there is no claim to meet or counter, there is nothing to prove. You can possibly prove the nonexistence of something that someone claims to have proven to exist but you canít prove the nonexistence of nothing.
*stands and applauds*
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

#4923 Jul 26, 2009
Michael in Ocoee wrote:
How can you, in all sincerity, look at the complexity of this and believe it "just happened" through time and chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flagellum_b...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum
OK, so you don't believe in God. I would think, at the very least, that you must believe in miracles.
If a laptop PC was smuggled into the Kalahari desert and left out in the open for a bushman to find, what do you think the bushman would make of it?

It obviously is complex in design. Does that therefore mean that the gods sent it?

To the naive and ignorant bushman, yes.

In reality, no.

The truth is that the laws of nature are much more complex than you can imagine, so in your naivete and ignorance you ascribe what you cannot explain to your god.

In reality, you're wrong.

The very fact that you include "chance" as an agent of evolution proves to me, and everyone else here who knows something about evolutionary biology, that you don't have the requisite knowledge necessary to discuss it intelligently.

That's not to say you're not intelligent, just uninformed.

The sad thing is that you probably are uninformed by choice, as anyone who takes the time to study evolutionary biology understands why it occurs and how changes come about.

Why is that sad? Because you've already made up your mind that accepting evolution will mean denying god, although that doesn't have to happen.

Many evolutionary scientists believe in God. They believe that God created the mechanisms of evolution and set them in motion.

Unproved, of course, but spiritually satisfying to those scientists.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

#4924 Jul 26, 2009
Khatru,

In my opinion, Jehovah, but that is simply my opinion. It seems the most logical, but of course, that is just my opinion. ;-)

Look, I can guess where you are going with this and it is certainly a valid argument, but just because there are many perceptions of God based upon any plethora of regions, reasons, etc. does not negate the possibility or plausibility that there is one true God. I just happen to believe that Jehovah is the one true God. Not MY Jehovah that I created in my own mind, but the Jehovah of the Bible. The reason I believe that is not because I like everything in the Bible. There are multiple Old Testament writtings that are particularly distasteful to me....but I didn't get to vote.

For me, it comes down to the belief that there is too much complexity around me to deny the existance of some higher power. To my left is an H-P Color LaserJet 2600n. When I print out a Test Page, I see a vibrantly colorful toy train? Science (and H-P Tech Support) can certainly explain how the make up of the ink and how it sticks the the paper. My question for you is...can science explain how and why the toy train and 2 columns of H-P specs happened to show up on the paper itself? Well, I guess that depends upon your definition of science. At the very least, logic tells us that if a toy train and formatted text is appearing on the page, that there was a programmer that made it so. The train and words didn't just appear on the page in that order by mere chance and time.

I like Norm Geisler's example. Let's say, tomorrow morning, you walk to your kitchen and there is a spilled box of Alphabet cereals on your kitchen table. You look closer and contained within the spillage is the sentence, "Who put the bop in the bop shoo bop shoo bop." Who among us could really believe that the sentence happened by chance?(Endulge my strawman for a moment). "WAIT," you say, "Not a valid example, for we are not talking about simply one random spillage. We are talking about tipping the box over billions of times over billions of years." Are you saying given enough time and chance the spilled box would result in the sentence? Maybe it could, but could chance and time really create an incredibly perfect code inside of DNA? That is just not logical to me.

By the way, my belief in a diety was affected by just observing my surroundings...admiring the majesty of a clear starry sky, watching my kids be born, making love to my wife, admiring the love two elderly people share holding hands walking down the sidewalk outside my office window...emotion, admiration, love, taste buds, the human brain...for that matter...the magnificance of the entire human body itself, the way eyes can discern color and beauty and how beauty is interpreted differently by different set of eyes... how smell is captured by the nose and immediately transferred to the brain for decoding and recognition. I could go on and on.

I am sorry, friend. I don't have that kind of faith.
Second Coming of Dave D

Brick, NJ

#4925 Jul 26, 2009
jack13 wrote:
<quoted text> If man was gods chosen creature on earth, what took him so long to get around to humans? Perhaps some other creature was his choice of his cratures? Many other longer living creatures come to mind. dinosaurs existed much long on earth than humans. Is it possible he goofed. Insects existed before dinosaurs, and are still present. Is it possible that when we die out, insects will be gods next chosen creature? I can imagine some insect that has gain a larger brain telling other insects, "We are gods chosen creatures." We can now see back in time as well as seeing the results of that vision. There are a lot of theories that, at the present time, cannot be proven by science, except by mathmatical theories of what is possible. The problem with the idea that there is an intellegent design is there is absolutely nothing that truely indicates his existence. This includes Brandon' Carter's Anthropic principle. Science assumes all phenomena are assured natural. Religion has no place in science since it believes everything is preordained created by a god that is immaterial. I think the term is that it was the benevolent hand of god that created man.
In Genesis 1 God creates birds and fish and the other animals before man and woman.

Then again, in Genesis 2 God creates Adam, then birds and fish and animals, then Eve.

So either man and woman weren't God's first choice, or woman alone wasn't.

Gee it sucks to be female, eh? Amazing how many women accept the misogynistic tenets of the Bible.

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

#4926 Jul 26, 2009
Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
If a laptop PC was smuggled into the Kalahari desert and left out in the open for a bushman to find, what do you think the bushman would make of it?
It obviously is complex in design. Does that therefore mean that the gods sent it?
To the naive and ignorant bushman, yes.
In reality, no.
The truth is that the laws of nature are much more complex than you can imagine, so in your naivete and ignorance you ascribe what you cannot explain to your god.
In reality, you're wrong.
The very fact that you include "chance" as an agent of evolution proves to me, and everyone else here who knows something about evolutionary biology, that you don't have the requisite knowledge necessary to discuss it intelligently.
That's not to say you're not intelligent, just uninformed.
The sad thing is that you probably are uninformed by choice, as anyone who takes the time to study evolutionary biology understands why it occurs and how changes come about.
Why is that sad? Because you've already made up your mind that accepting evolution will mean denying god, although that doesn't have to happen.
Many evolutionary scientists believe in God. They believe that God created the mechanisms of evolution and set them in motion.
Unproved, of course, but spiritually satisfying to those scientists.
Ya know, you have made an awful lot of assumptions about me, Dave. Why is that?
Paul WV

United States

#4927 Jul 26, 2009
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
Your argument boiled down to...
Maybe one day science will discover god...therefore god exists.
Yes, you gave a very poor argument.
Nope! You claim is: "There's probably no God." I say prove your claim. I say: "There's probably a God." I argue from design, what do you argue from?
Paul WV

United States

#4928 Jul 26, 2009
The Heathen wrote:
<quoted text>
If a schizophrenic told you something, you would be less inclined to believe its veracity.
I would examine the facts. Does the source of knowledge alter the facts?

“If you say it, back it up”

Since: Jan 08

Ocoee, FL

#4929 Jul 26, 2009
Second Coming of Dave D wrote:
<quoted text>
If a laptop PC was smuggled into the Kalahari desert and left out in the open for a bushman to find, what do you think the bushman would make of it?
It obviously is complex in design. Does that therefore mean that the gods sent it?.
Come on, Dave. If a bushman found a Dell in the desert...or in his dessert, even the bushman would know it didn't just assemble itself. It would have the be the result of intelligent design. What I hear you saying...and please correct me if I am wrong...is that you DO believe in ID, but you believe time & nature are the designers.

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