How tolerant are muslims and christians really?

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1 - 15 of 15 Comments Last updated Jun 3, 2013
Thinking

Hounslow, UK

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#1
May 23, 2013
 
Pat Condell posts feedback to his polemics here:

http://www.patcondell.net/page4/page4.html

There are a lot of death threats in amongst the questionable literacy.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#2
May 23, 2013
 
Thinking

Hounslow, UK

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#3
May 23, 2013
 
Don't get me started on faith schools... the catholic ones seem OK though. They've had a long history of accepting non catholics and they teach Evolution correctly.
EdSed wrote:
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#4
May 23, 2013
 
Thinking wrote:
Don't get me started on faith schools... the catholic ones seem OK though. They've had a long history of accepting non catholics and they teach Evolution correctly.
<quoted text>
"Seem" is right. I went to one because one of my parents went to Church and insisted the whole family went. If we didn't, we were 'causing trouble'.

For me, two of the main problems are that the state effectively funds RC propaganda and the segregation of children according to their parents religious delusions. If we have RC schools we must have Islamist ones. There can't be discrimination, only Ofsted or some other universal standards applied. Ofsted couldn't even stop the teaching of Creationism and were giving Muslim schools a perfectly clean bill of health when whole classes were leaving and dismissive of science supporting evolutionary theory.

Religious schools made sense when they provided the building and rescources. Now the rescources they get to control far exceed their contributions. There is no such thing as a free school with a religious ethos. Either their free or religiously denominated.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#5
May 23, 2013
 
I mean 'they're' not their. :-)
Thinking

Hounslow, UK

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#6
May 24, 2013
 

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My wife went to a French catholic school, it seems like it was quite a light touch on the god front, but she got a really good education.

I wish our state schools hadn't dumbed down, though. Faith schools say they have higher standards. It wouldn't be difficult.
EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>"Seem" is right. I went to one because one of my parents went to Church and insisted the whole family went. If we didn't, we were 'causing trouble'.
For me, two of the main problems are that the state effectively funds RC propaganda and the segregation of children according to their parents religious delusions. If we have RC schools we must have Islamist ones. There can't be discrimination, only Ofsted or some other universal standards applied. Ofsted couldn't even stop the teaching of Creationism and were giving Muslim schools a perfectly clean bill of health when whole classes were leaving and dismissive of science supporting evolutionary theory.
Religious schools made sense when they provided the building and rescources. Now the rescources they get to control far exceed their contributions. There is no such thing as a free school with a religious ethos. Either their free or religiously denominated.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#7
May 24, 2013
 
Thinking wrote:
...I wish our state schools hadn't dumbed down, though. Faith schools say they have higher standards. It wouldn't be difficult.
<quoted text>
They often have better discipline. I have seen credible articles that they are often successful due to the way they select the most biddable and more able pupils leaving the state schools to handle a disproportionate number of those with learning and behavioural difficulties.
Thinking

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#8
May 24, 2013
 

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I agree that faith schools get to pick and choose who they teach, and they will therefore get better results.

I don't think any state money should go to state schools, though. We're going to have to alter the CofE's legal position at some point to address this.
EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>They often have better discipline. I have seen credible articles that they are often successful due to the way they select the most biddable and more able pupils leaving the state schools to handle a disproportionate number of those with learning and behavioural difficulties.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#9
May 24, 2013
 
Thinking wrote:
I agree that faith schools get to pick and choose who they teach, and they will therefore get better results.
I don't think any state money should go to state schools, though. We're going to have to alter the CofE's legal position at some point to address this.
<quoted text>
I'm inclined to favour the voucher system, but at least one teacher I know feels it 'wouldn't work'. I couldn't grasp what her objection was beyond the fact that her school would have to compete with other schools for pupils, which is the whole point - how do we empower parents and give them a choice of school? Accessability to more than one local school might lead to lots of small schools and so losing the advantages of scale with regard to fascilities for sports, arts and sciences. The more schools, the less scope for efficiencies of scale.
Thinking

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#10
May 24, 2013
 

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Some things benefit from economies of scale, other things are difficult to scale up. My friend's a headmistress and we're going to see Muse at the Emirates tomorrow. I'll ask her opinion.
EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>I'm inclined to favour the voucher system, but at least one teacher I know feels it 'wouldn't work'. I couldn't grasp what her objection was beyond the fact that her school would have to compete with other schools for pupils, which is the whole point - how do we empower parents and give them a choice of school? Accessability to more than one local school might lead to lots of small schools and so losing the advantages of scale with regard to fascilities for sports, arts and sciences. The more schools, the less scope for efficiencies of scale.
Amused

Buzzards Bay, MA

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#11
May 24, 2013
 

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I went to catholic high schools. From my experience, while they were good at teaching things that require rote learning, they were not so good at teaching critical thinking. There was a strong emphasis on conformity that stifles creative thinking, and most of the teachers did not handle having students question the teacher's opinions very well.

The rigidity of the thinking they taught was one of the things that pushed me towards atheism. If they couldn't defend their beliefs intellectually, it just seemed to me that the beliefs were not backed by evidence. The more I questioned, the less persuasive their arguments became.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#12
May 28, 2013
 
Thinking wrote:
Some things benefit from economies of scale, other things are difficult to scale up. My friend's a headmistress and we're going to see Muse at the Emirates tomorrow. I'll ask her opinion.
<quoted text>
The voucher system is used and criticised in Sweden, but the criticism I heard was that failure was due to the profit motive. I only mention this as you seem to be against 'state schools'? Not sure what exactly you mean by that. Perhaps vouchers combined with 'not for profit (nor prophet:-)' independent schools are the answer?

What strikes me is that good teachers will made a bad system work and bad teachers will make the best system fail. A good school in a developed country ultimately relies on good teachers more than any other single factor.
Thinking

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#13
May 28, 2013
 

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I'm not against state schools per say, far from it. But they need to stream able pupils more, as they do in South Bucks.

Giving everyone a toffee apple just for turning up doesn't prepare anyone for adult life.
EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>The voucher system is used and criticised in Sweden, but the criticism I heard was that failure was due to the profit motive. I only mention this as you seem to be against 'state schools'? Not sure what exactly you mean by that. Perhaps vouchers combined with 'not for profit (nor prophet:-)' independent schools are the answer?
What strikes me is that good teachers will made a bad system work and bad teachers will make the best system fail. A good school in a developed country ultimately relies on good teachers more than any other single factor.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#14
Jun 3, 2013
 
Thanks for all replies and sorry, I dragged us off-topic.

I think the problem of Creeping Islam is real.

Jim Justice provided a video that showed a man's hand being cut off. People try to distinguish between moderate Muslims, who are essentially no different from Christians, Jews or any other sect on the one hand and fundamentalist, extremists or ideologues on the other. This is sometimes referred to as the difference between Muslims and Islamists.

What motivates Muslims (as I understand it) is a superstitious belief in an Abrahamic god and an after life. Also, an attraction to,(or indoctrination in) what they see as a good and moderate Islamic culture with positive values. The tribalism, divisiveness, sectarianism, inconsistencies, hypocrisy, absurdities and senseless attribution of human values to a religious ideology and the dangers of such superstitions they simply ignore like any other religionist.

An Islamist (in contrast with a Muslim) is one who distorts the culture and values of the cult and uses it to support extremist views or acts. He also supports an authoritarian and maybe a theocratic form of government and tends to be dismissive of western democracy, which they often see as corrupt.

From the point of view that a religious fundamentalist can be non-violent, a 'fundie' might be either a Muslim or an Islamist, but is often associated with extreme and dogmatic views.

There is also the matter of understanding to what extent different factors motivate people - religion, culture, ideology, nationalsim and superstition.

In the East some people were educated in madrasas. Perhaps only the boys were educated and then in a rather narrow, Islamist and dogmatic way.

We have seen that many of the most extreme Islamists in the UK are home-grown and educated, disaffected Brits.

So all this makes me wonder how many people we see as moderate Muslims are only moderate to the degree they can be contained by secular priniciples and institutions. Perhaps I might be somewhat surprised by how many people would embrace Sharia law along with many of its excesses if they got the opportunity.

One should never be afraid to speak-out for a secular society, free speech and free expression.
Thinking

Hounslow, UK

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#15
Jun 3, 2013
 

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I think most people that are born into a religion get very little choice. Some are good people, some are bad, as you would expect. Most are not overly dogmatic and most are reasonable people.

There seems to be a disproportionate amount of islamist crimes being caused by recent converts, however... tabs need to kept on converts.
EdSed wrote:
Thanks for all replies and sorry, I dragged us off-topic.
I think the problem of Creeping Islam is real.
Jim Justice provided a video that showed a man's hand being cut off. People try to distinguish between moderate Muslims, who are essentially no different from Christians, Jews or any other sect on the one hand and fundamentalist, extremists or ideologues on the other. This is sometimes referred to as the difference between Muslims and Islamists.
What motivates Muslims (as I understand it) is a superstitious belief in an Abrahamic god and an after life. Also, an attraction to,(or indoctrination in) what they see as a good and moderate Islamic culture with positive values. The tribalism, divisiveness, sectarianism, inconsistencies, hypocrisy, absurdities and senseless attribution of human values to a religious ideology and the dangers of such superstitions they simply ignore like any other religionist.
An Islamist (in contrast with a Muslim) is one who distorts the culture and values of the cult and uses it to support extremist views or acts. He also supports an authoritarian and maybe a theocratic form of government and tends to be dismissive of western democracy, which they often see as corrupt.
From the point of view that a religious fundamentalist can be non-violent, a 'fundie' might be either a Muslim or an Islamist, but is often associated with extreme and dogmatic views.
There is also the matter of understanding to what extent different factors motivate people - religion, culture, ideology, nationalsim and superstition.
In the East some people were educated in madrasas. Perhaps only the boys were educated and then in a rather narrow, Islamist and dogmatic way.
We have seen that many of the most extreme Islamists in the UK are home-grown and educated, disaffected Brits.
So all this makes me wonder how many people we see as moderate Muslims are only moderate to the degree they can be contained by secular priniciples and institutions. Perhaps I might be somewhat surprised by how many people would embrace Sharia law along with many of its excesses if they got the opportunity.
One should never be afraid to speak-out for a secular society, free speech and free expression.

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