'Good without a god': Faces of atheis...

'Good without a god': Faces of atheism in Oklahoma

There are 7527 comments on the NewsOK.com story from Jul 5, 2013, titled 'Good without a god': Faces of atheism in Oklahoma. In it, NewsOK.com reports that:

Rebecca Vitsmun is shown during an interview with a CNN reporter shortly after the May 20 tornado that destroyed her Moore home.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at NewsOK.com.

JPL

United States

#5363 Feb 3, 2014
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reasoning is not convincing.
First. No, your god or your jesus did not directly kill the Jews. On the other hand, they did absolutely nothing to save them.
Second. Hitler claimed to be acting as a christian carrying out the work of god in persecuting the Jews. Whether he personally believed this or not is beside the point. He may very well have been lying. If so, however, he was lying to cloak himself with the legitimacy of christianity, in order to obtain the loyal obedience of the many christians who carried out all the day to day tasks needed to persecute the Jews. Whether Hitler was an actual christian, or a liar, there were very few atheists in German society at the time. The guards who manned the concentration camps wee christians. The men who herded the Jews into the cattle cars were christian. The men who carried out the actual killings were christians.
Third. Your logic breaks down when you say that because the nazis behaved in ways that offended your god, he allowed them to kill the Jews. In what way did they offend? By KILLING JEWS. Don't you see the circular nature of that argument?
Fourth. Most atheists are not opposed to the morality that some (not all) of the commandments espouse. We do, however, note that these ideas are common in all systems of morality, including many that predate christianity. More than 500 years before christianity, the Buddha set out the 5 precepts: Don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't use intoxicants. Same basic ideas as the ten commandments, with the addition of the precept against intoxicants, and minus all the commandments dealing with worship of a deity. So, it is not so much that we reject the ideas expressed in the non-god-directed commandments as that we think these were old ideas before the ten commandments existed.
1. Why do you think GOD did nothing to 'save' the Jews? In the Holy Bible it also recounts GOD leaving the Jews in bondage in Egypt as slaves enduring great hardship. So there is clearly a foundation precept established of GOD withdrawing aid.

2. Hitler claiming to be a Christian should be discarded as the ravings of a maniac. I would submit that those involved in the systematic murder of Jews are not representative of a Christ like or 'Christian' way of life.

3. According to the Bible Jews are the 'chosen' people and they turned their backs on GOD not once but many times over generations. In the Bible is clearly states the Jews will know great trials and tribulations for turning their backs on GOD and engaging in behaviors against GOD's laws. One could also argue that historical fact is evidence of GOD's declaration and edict for withdrawing his blessings and grace to a rebellious people.

4. No argument on morality issues and other more ancient cultures it's interesting to note how similar cultures are which were not supposed to have contact with one another including the architecture. How did that happen?

5. Yes long before Jesus Christ and his followers but not predating GOD who according to the Bible has always existed the Alpha and Omega.
JPL

United States

#5364 Feb 3, 2014
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reasoning is not convincing.
As I posted earlier I am very comfortable with your rejection of GOD or a higher power. I'm not trying to convince, convert or condemn you. Open discussions like this one can be intellectually stimulating, interesting and enlightening...if people allow it to be. Snarkie remarks, hateful remarks, denigrating remarks, spiteful remarks, humiliating remarks are never welcomed, encouraged or remotely helpful.
WarForOil

Rowlett, TX

#5365 Feb 4, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Not always.
<quoted text>
Nothing but blue skies Do I see Bluebirds Singing a song -
If you're successful and happy, that's the story here.

In England they get the gloomy skies they deserve.
XLT2

United States

#5366 Feb 4, 2014
JPL wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Why do you think GOD did nothing to 'save' the Jews? In the Holy Bible it also recounts GOD leaving the Jews in bondage in Egypt as slaves enduring great hardship. So there is clearly a foundation precept established of GOD withdrawing aid.
2. Hitler claiming to be a Christian should be discarded as the ravings of a maniac. I would submit that those involved in the systematic murder of Jews are not representative of a Christ like or 'Christian' way of life.
3. According to the Bible Jews are the 'chosen' people and they turned their backs on GOD not once but many times over generations. In the Bible is clearly states the Jews will know great trials and tribulations for turning their backs on GOD and engaging in behaviors against GOD's laws. One could also argue that historical fact is evidence of GOD's declaration and edict for withdrawing his blessings and grace to a rebellious people.
4. No argument on morality issues and other more ancient cultures it's interesting to note how similar cultures are which were not supposed to have contact with one another including the architecture. How did that happen?
5. Yes long before Jesus Christ and his followers but not predating GOD who according to the Bible has always existed the Alpha and Omega.
1. According to the Bible you are 100% correct
2. Just because a person calls themselves a Christian doesn't make it so, it is the deeds and behaviors of a lifetime which sums up a person as a Christian or not. To quote someone I heard years ago "going to church no more makes you a Christian as standing in a garage makes you a car"....well said btw.
3. Absolutely correct according to the Bible.
4. Morality precepts are in other culture prior to the life of Christ. So that is 100% correct. Secondly the building of pyramids so similar and by cultures who were not to have ever known about each other so I agree with you how did that happen?
5. Again according to the Bible GOD has always been which is hard to understand all by itself.

Summary:
Since most atheist discount the Bible as a fairy tale so your 5 points will be discounted as well. What I find interesting is the very same atheist if they are scientist, or maybe archeologists will consider folklore, tales, conjecture of native people's when searching for 'fabled' cities or treasures lost. Go figure...
Jay

United States

#5369 Feb 4, 2014
Thinking wrote:
You're projecting, again.
You're not obliged to read my posts.
<quoted text>
Likewise I'm sure you aren't required or obliged to comment....

duh....

Still pissed?
WarForOil

Rowlett, TX

#5370 Feb 4, 2014
Thinking wrote:
ASDIP
<quoted text>
Yes, it truly is another day in paradise here in
Southlake TX where I am. And you live in well,
England. England is my least favorite European
country ( excepting of course, Ireland and Scotland too ).

England is so close to France. Has been for millennium,
but still the English can't cook, design buildings or clothes.
And still the English can't speak French either.

Life here is grand in a place where merit matters.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#5374 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
so now God has to live up to what YOU expect? Ha......you are such a fool
What I would expect from him, were he real, is to be much better than his own creation. If you expect anything less from the god you believe in then you, sir, are the foolish one.
antiatheist

Seminole, OK

#5375 Feb 4, 2014
You act as if you know God...which you obviously don't. You should be ashamed.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#5376 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
You act as if you know God...which you obviously don't. You should be ashamed.
That makes no sense.
antiatheist

Seminole, OK

#5378 Feb 4, 2014
You should be ashamed iseeyou. Your day will come eventually.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#5380 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
You should be ashamed iseeyou. Your day will come eventually.
You think I should be ashamed because If I believed in a god I would expect more from it than its own creation???

That is most certainly nothing for me to be ashamed of sir. Shame on you for worshiping something that supposedly created us in its own image, but wants you to worship it.

Since: Aug 13

Dallas, TX

#5381 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
interested mom you are making the mistake of believing these atheists are honest people just seeking the truth. They hate God and they hate themselves. They aren't looking for answers they are only looking ways to persecute Christians. Thats all they are interested in
If we were really such hateful people wouldnt we spend a lot of time on Christian forums talking $hit about them?

How can you speak for ALL atheists when you admit that you dont know very many? or many gays?

Basically all the people you spend most of your time bad mouthing, by your own account, you have had zero or very little contact with these people at all.

Again, you have done an outstanding job of making out case for us.
Amused

Lowell, MA

#5383 Feb 4, 2014
JPL wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Why do you think GOD did nothing to 'save' the Jews? In the Holy Bible it also recounts GOD leaving the Jews in bondage in Egypt as slaves enduring great hardship. So there is clearly a foundation precept established of GOD withdrawing aid.
2. Hitler claiming to be a Christian should be discarded as the ravings of a maniac. I would submit that those involved in the systematic murder of Jews are not representative of a Christ like or 'Christian' way of life.
3. According to the Bible Jews are the 'chosen' people and they turned their backs on GOD not once but many times over generations. In the Bible is clearly states the Jews will know great trials and tribulations for turning their backs on GOD and engaging in behaviors against GOD's laws. One could also argue that historical fact is evidence of GOD's declaration and edict for withdrawing his blessings and grace to a rebellious people.
4. No argument on morality issues and other more ancient cultures it's interesting to note how similar cultures are which were not supposed to have contact with one another including the architecture. How did that happen?
5. Yes long before Jesus Christ and his followers but not predating GOD who according to the Bible has always existed the Alpha and Omega.
1. 6,000,000 are dead, and not from natural causes. Hardly the kind of saving one would expect from an omnipotent being.
2. No true Scotsman fallacy. They couldn't be real christians when they were acting badly because by your definition, no true christian would act that way. By that rule, the crusaders who cut a bloody swath through the Middle East were not true christians, nor were the conquistadores, the torturers working for the Inquisition, witch hunters, etc. History is replete with 2,000 years of examples of 'unchristian' behavior by people who proclaimed themselves to be christian, while doing bad things, often in the name of their religion.
3. The historical record is also equally consistent with there being no god, no covenant with the Jews, and the Jews being subject to exactly the same amount of good and bad fortune as any other nation.
4. The evidence is as consistent with the ideas of morality being inherent in human beings as with cultures being in contact with each other. Humans are social. From the dawn of time, we have lived in tribes or other groups, hunted communally and cooperatively, defended each other within the group, etc. The behaviors we see in the commandments, 5 precepts, etc. are all behaviors one would expect in such groupings. Not killing, not stealing, not being sexually unfaithful are all behaviors that promote group cohesion, and hence group survival, while their opposites would destabilize social groups, threatening survival. I have no doubt that these behaviors are hard-wired into our consciousness.
5. You assume the existence of an always-existing god, without proffering any proof for that proposition. The existence of that god is not a necessary pre-condition for the existence of these common elements of morality, and merely one of many possible explanations.
antiatheist

Seminole, OK

#5384 Feb 4, 2014
iseeyou should be ashamed of herself. Its like denying that you even have parents. How in the heck do you think we all got here? Oh thats right you believe we "evolved" lol

Since: Aug 13

Dallas, TX

#5385 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
iseeyou should be ashamed of herself. Its like denying that you even have parents. How in the heck do you think we all got here? Oh thats right you believe we "evolved" lol
Anti, are you gonna watch the Bill Nye/ Ken Ham debate tonight? my atheist group and I are having a viewing party, you are more than welcome to come.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#5386 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
iseeyou should be ashamed of herself. Its like denying that you even have parents. How in the heck do you think we all got here? Oh thats right you believe we "evolved" lol
Lol...well that's a horrible example. Although I never saw god create us or my mother birth me, at least I have DNA evidence that my mother gave birth to me and that I belong to my mom and dad lol....and yes, I know we evolved ;-)
JPL

United States

#5387 Feb 4, 2014
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
1. 6,000,000 are dead, and not from natural causes. Hardly the kind of saving one would expect from an omnipotent being.
2. No true Scotsman fallacy. They couldn't be real christians when they were acting badly because by your definition, no true christian would act that way. By that rule, the crusaders who cut a bloody swath through the Middle East were not true christians, nor were the conquistadores, the torturers working for the Inquisition, witch hunters, etc. History is replete with 2,000 years of examples of 'unchristian' behavior by people who proclaimed themselves to be christian, while doing bad things, often in the name of their religion.
3. The historical record is also equally consistent with there being no god, no covenant with the Jews, and the Jews being subject to exactly the same amount of good and bad fortune as any other nation.
4. The evidence is as consistent with the ideas of morality being inherent in human beings as with cultures being in contact with each other. Humans are social. From the dawn of time, we have lived in tribes or other groups, hunted communally and cooperatively, defended each other within the group, etc. The behaviors we see in the commandments, 5 precepts, etc. are all behaviors one would expect in such groupings. Not killing, not stealing, not being sexually unfaithful are all behaviors that promote group cohesion, and hence group survival, while their opposites would destabilize social groups, threatening survival. I have no doubt that these behaviors are hard-wired into our consciousness.
5. You assume the existence of an always-existing god, without proffering any proof for that proposition. The existence of that god is not a necessary pre-condition for the existence of these common elements of morality, and merely one of many possible explanations.
1. Again from the Holy Bible GOD would withdraw his blessings and favor when people would turn their backs on him. Lesson: Live the rules and be blessed and in favor don't and you won't be in his grace and favor.

2. A person can claim anything they are willing to lie over but that doesn't make it true now does it? Look to politicians today and lets use a current example: President Obama promised Americans time and time again they could keep their healthcare plan and their doctors. No matter he is the president of the USA and he promised it repeatedly for years still didn't make it the truth now did it? The word Christian 'means Christ-like' we have examples of who Christ was in the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ is the example of the Christian we should embrace his words/deeds and should endeavor to be like. Hitler and the Nazis are nothing like Jesus Christ or what a Christian should be.

3. No I disagree. I believe the historical record shows great suffering of the Jews which continues to this day and according to the Holy Bible will continue until his return. Having said that it does not mean the Jews are the only one to suffer great tribulations on the contrary the Holy Bible speaks of much suffering for the sinful world.

4. This we can agree on as the necessary ingredients to a stable society one would have to wonder why we as a group continue to engage in behavior that conflict with the unity and survival of our species.

5. The concept that GOD has always existed is hard for our limited understanding to comprehend the concept seems impossible to us. If there is a higher power or GOD who create our universe as well as mankind there is so much we don't have a clue on much more to be learned. According to the Holy Bible this is so. But not only the Holy Bible many other cultures have the same basic understanding of a creator a divine being.
antiatheist

Seminole, OK

#5388 Feb 4, 2014
I won't waste my time with a debate about something that I already know. I stopped listening to Bill Nye years ago.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#5389 Feb 4, 2014
antiatheist wrote:
I won't waste my time with a debate about something that I already know. I stopped listening to Bill Nye years ago.
Lets just keep it at, don't waste your time...Bill Nye has nothing to do with this ;-)
antiatheist

Seminole, OK

#5390 Feb 4, 2014
debates like that mean nothing. Atheists are going to believe everything Nye says and vice versa. Its simply entertainment for some people.

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