Noah's flood real

[Hidingfromyou]

KJV wrote:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.h...

Sure, floods happen. Did you read the stories? Most of them are local floods. There are other problems - Frazer is an oft quoted source, but he got his information from explorers, so it's all heresy. And Frazer knew he was writing for the European audience and was pretty loose with his writing. I honestly don't expect you to know this, though.

So...which flood is true? The stories don't match. They don't agree with the Biblical story. They aren't all the same story, but reveal that lots of peoples throughout history were dependent on water and recognized that water itself is a dangerous and unpredictable thing. They also show that water can be used to wipe the slate clean - when the child asks "what came before us?" the ignorant can say "oh, a big flood, then us. So we're first."

Many of them explain how the first people arose - that contradicts the Biblical flood. It's cute that you're trying to forcefit them all into your story, though.

[emperorjohn]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>
It's ok, John. I went back in time and killed Abraham's whiny son. And his wife. Then I told Abraham "see what happens when you piss off Hiding!"
He ... uh ... this is embarrassing, really. He didn't understand English and thought I was some kind of avenging angel. Not sure why that didn't make it into the Bible.
Anyways, next week I'm going to kill Krebous. I think I can narrow down the New Testament to Jesus if I kill off his sidekick before they meet. You know it drives me nuts when all these Christians quote Krebous, that self-righteous sexist bastard!
So, yeah, if by next week you don't remember a Krebous, I was successful. Just make sure you come back to this post to remind you that you should remember Krebous.

Thanks for the laugh.

[emperorjohn]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>
Nah. No boat. Noah's flood comes from the Sumerian flood stories, mainly because Ur flooded a lot. So they had flood gods and flood myths.

You damned witch! Blasphemer! How dare you imply that the authors of the buybull plagiarized their works. So what Horus had a virgin birth? So what Mises is similar to Moses and he too, opened up the seas. So what the stories of the births of King Sargon the Great and Moses are similar. The buybull is the truth, no matter how many stories it may seem like it copied from.

[Khatru]

KJV wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes I know he is looking for the ark under the assumption that it was a local flood.
Why would you need an ark for a local flood? 2+2=3?
It don't add up. Sorry the flood must have been as the Bible stated it.
Along with the lifting of the lands and the dropping of the ocean floors.
Dinosaurs grave yards are as expected in the collection of dead animals it the eddies and whirlpool.

So your god created the dinosaurs so that they could all drown in a flood?

I see.

[emperorjohn]

Khatru wrote:

<quoted text>
So your god created the dinosaurs so that they could all drown in a flood?
I see.

Don't doubt the extent of Yahweh's cruelty or stupidity.

[Richardfs]

Khatru wrote:

<quoted text>
So your god created the dinosaurs so that they could all drown in a flood?
I see.

That makes perfect sense.

[Givemeliberty]

So there was dinosaurs 4000 years ago stomping around?

What an idiot I bet home schooled right?

KJV wrote:

<quoted text>
No, the soil does back it up.
Grave yard after grave yard are described a pack of dinosaurs trying to cross a swollen river. Or local flood had collected a bunch of dead dinosaurs in one spot. Science doesn't want to use the Noah flood so they reach around it.
Science dating methods are a joke to say the least.

[Givemeliberty]

Could you imagine the stolen material lawsuits that would happen were the bible cobbled together today? Lol :)

emperorjohn wrote:

<quoted text> You damned witch! Blasphemer! How dare you imply that the authors of the buybull plagiarized their works. So what Horus had a virgin birth? So what Mises is similar to Moses and he too, opened up the seas. So what the stories of the births of King Sargon the Great and Moses are similar. The buybull is the truth, no matter how many stories it may seem like it copied from.

[KJV]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>Nope. There was no Biblical flood. Once again, the Biblical flood was borrowed from the Mesopotamian one through cultural diffusion.

It's a myth, pure and simple. Hence, no evidence for it. Hence, only people lacking in scientific education and who are religious still believe it. Like the really ignorant who actually believe, against all reason and evidence, that the Earth is only 6000 years old, because of an ignorant, outdated Catholic doctrine that even the Catholics have officially put to rest.

It honestly doesn't get any more ironic than that for you creationist protestants who absurdly believe in archaic Catholic doctrine.

But, hey KJV, thanks for the entertainment ;)

"Biblical flood was borrowed from the the Mesopotamian one"

So because the Mesopotamian wrote about a world wide flood it could not be that same flood that is talked about in the Bible?

Is that what you're saying?

[KJV]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>Sure, floods happen. Did you read the stories? Most of them are local floods. There are other problems - Frazer is an oft quoted source, but he got his information from explorers, so it's all heresy. And Frazer knew he was writing for the European audience and was pretty loose with his writing. I honestly don't expect you to know this, though.

So...which flood is true? The stories don't match. They don't agree with the Biblical story. They aren't all the same story, but reveal that lots of peoples throughout history were dependent on water and recognized that water itself is a dangerous and unpredictable thing. They also show that water can be used to wipe the slate clean - when the child asks "what came before us?" the ignorant can say "oh, a big flood, then us. So we're first."

Many of them explain how the first people arose - that contradicts the Biblical flood. It's cute that you're trying to forcefit them all into your story, though.

The point my dear is the flood has its writing around the would. And no the story's are not all a match. One hell of a lot of cultures talk about a world wide flood flood and an ark filled with animals. 2+2=3 for you still?

[Hidingfromyou]

KJV wrote:

<quoted text>
"Biblical flood was borrowed from the the Mesopotamian one"
So because the Mesopotamian wrote about a world wide flood it could not be that same flood that is talked about in the Bible?
Is that what you're saying?

The Sumerian flood was written quite a few hundred years before the Bible was conceived of. It was written specifically because the cities of Mesopotamia existed on flood plains and flooded every year. Their livelihood was utterly dependent on flooding, and their myths reflect this. In fact, their cities were engineered for floods, to be flooded.

The flood of the Bible is taken from the Sumerian mythos. Neither are real events; both are myths. The difference, of course, is that the Mesopotamians actually experienced yearly floods and the early Jews did not. So the Jewish interpretation is a bit different - more fantastical, makes impossible claims.

That's the part you fail to realize because of your poor education with regards to science. You simply assume that the world is as your religion tells you and you don't bother investigating what geological, astronomical, biological...and on and on...science demonstrates.

It's not really your fault. You were brought up that way and are fully indoctrinated into it. Mind you, other people have been and, having been introduced to the facts, changed. So there's something else going on with you. Something more emotional, perhaps, or more spiritual, that drives you to ignore the findings of science and favor the misleading, dishonest and intellectually lazy lies you have been taught.

I honestly see this as a failing of faith on your part. Yes, your faith drives you to ignore the vast evidence the various sciences have accumulated over the past 160 years (to the point where not a single one backs up the Bible's claims - or any religion's, for that matter).

I see it as a failing of faith precisely because you are unable to accept reality and know God. Rather, you require a small God. You need your God to fit into your tiny, intellectually lazy reality. Something you can grasp. Something easy - that removes all curiosity and exploration of reality from you.

Religion has poisoned your faith, sir. It is hurting you, refuses to allow you to explore what we, as a species, know.

Science has moved so far beyond the ancient Catholic doctrine that is the premise of your belief in a flood, it's unbelievable. It's like you're telling me that influenza is caused by sin and not a virus. It's like you're claiming that prayer alone can cure people of cancer. Shockingly naive!

So...no. We don't take your claims seriously. That you believe such nonsense is worrisome, yes, but that's it.

And you're fortunate that we don't take you seriously. We use evolution to guide our medical theories, our biological knowledge and you enjoy the fruits of those labors. We use evolution to produce our new medical technologies and you benefit, despite that you fail to understand how these work.

You don't have a voice in science. We really don't care what you believe. I'm going to continue working on my research using the best tools and methods available despite the absurd claims you make and I will see results that are, quite frankly, incomprehensible to someone of your extremely limited knowledge base. And my contribution will help you in the end even though all you are trying to do is destroy science.

So the next time you go to the doctor's office, remember not to tell them "Hey, I'm a creationist, so I want the medicine from 1945 because I 'know' that the pathogens cannot have evolved" because that will just end up hurting you.

[Hidingfromyou]

KJV wrote:

<quoted text>
The point my dear is the flood has its writing around the would. And no the story's are not all a match. One hell of a lot of cultures talk about a world wide flood flood and an ark filled with animals. 2+2=3 for you still?

Few talk about a world wide flood. Fewer still at time the Christian's claim. And...what...three mention an ark, and those are the Abrahamic religions?

Did you not read them? A number of them claimed that was how the world began - out of the flood, people emerged. Well...that puts to rest Noah's story! Most of them were local floods - the girl hid in the tree to be safe... Now she should trust turtles, etc. Now the gods know that humans are ok. Sorry about the flood killing everything and good luck now that it has receded!

And the majority of cultures on the planet lack a flood myth. The number you quoted is what...40? 50? That's less than 1% of the world's cultures, most of which do not have a flood myth, let alone a world wide flood myth, let alone one with a boat full of animals.

So you're cherry picking your data and making stuff up to boot. Well done! I expect no less from you, a creationist.

Let's add some science to this, shall we?

- if all animals were reduced to 2 breeding pairs, their genetic variety would be destroyed and that would be measurable in every single species.

It's not. So you fail here.

The cheetah is your sole exception - it died down to about 8 breeding individuals around 5 to 7000 years ago. That's measurable. We know it. No other mammalian species follows this example. Ergo...you're wrong. Your religion is wrong. You have been lied to and, because of your lack of scientific education, you believe the lie.

[KJV]

Khatru wrote:

<quoted text>So your god created the dinosaurs so that they could all drown in a flood?

I see.

You show again that you do not Know the word of the Bible.

"Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah,“The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.(Genesis 6:11-13)(NASB)"

all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

1) all flesh including the dinosaurs
2) on earth. Not in the sea

All land animals and man had become corrupt.

All did not die in the flood. Two of each kind were save upon the ark. That is not to say that they were not hunted to extinction by man,or failed to make a go of it after the earth had changed so much. Mans life span was shortened after the flood by God to 120 years.
The earth was no more the rich plush land it was before the water from above that acted as a shield against harmful rays from the Sun came raining down for 40 days and nights.

Yes the animals of the land were put to death by God the same as man.

[polymath257]

KJV wrote:

Dr. Alan Zindler, a professor of geology at Columbia University who is a member of the Lamont-Doherty research group, said age estimates using the carbon dating and uranium-thorium dating differed only slightly for the period from 9,000 years ago to the present.''But at earlier times, the carbon dates were substantially younger than the dates we estimated by uranium-thorium analysis,'' he said.''The largest deviation, 3,500 years, was obtained for samples that are about 20,000 years old.''
One reason the group believes the uranium-thorium estimates to be more accurate than carbon dating is that they produce better matches between known changes in the Earth's orbit and changes in global glaciation.

Why is it that creationists think that all dating is carbon dating? Yes, carbon dating needs to be calibrated. But Uranium dating does not. Neither does Rb-Sr dating. And *all* dates before about 100,000 years are something other than carbon dating.

So once again, the Bible is not even close.

[KJV]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>The Sumerian flood was written quite a few hundred years before the Bible was conceived of. It was written specifically because the cities of Mesopotamia existed on flood plains and flooded every year. Their livelihood was utterly dependent on flooding, and their myths reflect this. In fact, their cities were engineered for floods, to be flooded.

The flood of the Bible is taken from the Sumerian mythos. Neither are real events; both are myths. The difference, of course, is that the Mesopotamians actually experienced yearly floods and the early Jews did not. So the Jewish interpretation is a bit different - more fantastical, makes impossible claims.

That's the part you fail to realize because of your poor education with regards to science. You simply assume that the world is as your religion tells you and you don't bother investigating what geological, astronomical, biological...and on and on...science demonstrates.

It's not really your fault. You were brought up that way and are fully indoctrinated into it. Mind you, other people have been and, having been introduced to the facts, changed. So there's something else going on with you. Something more emotional, perhaps, or more spiritual, that drives you to ignore the findings of science and favor the misleading, dishonest and intellectually lazy lies you have been taught.

I honestly see this as a failing of faith on your part. Yes, your faith drives you to ignore the vast evidence the various sciences have accumulated over the past 160 years (to the point where not a single one backs up the Bible's claims - or any religion's, for that matter).

I see it as a failing of faith precisely because you are unable to accept reality and know God. Rather, you require a small God. You need your God to fit into your tiny, intellectually lazy reality. Something you can grasp. Something easy - that removes all curiosity and exploration of reality from you.

Religion has poisoned your faith, sir. It is hurting you, refuses to allow you to explore what we, as a species, know.

Science has moved so far beyond the ancient Catholic doctrine that is the premise of your belief in a flood, it's unbelievable. It's like you're telling me that influenza is caused by sin and not a virus. It's like you're claiming that prayer alone can cure people of cancer. Shockingly naive!

So...no. We don't take your claims seriously. That you believe such nonsense is worrisome, yes, but that's it.

And you're fortunate that we don't take you seriously. We use evolution to guide our medical theories, our biological knowledge and you enjoy the fruits of those labors. We use evolution to produce our new medical technologies and you benefit, despite that you fail to understand how these work.

You don't have a voice in science. We really don't care what you believe. I'm going to continue working on my research using the best tools and methods available despite the absurd claims you make and I will see results that are, quite frankly, incomprehensible to someone of your extremely limited knowledge base. And my contribution will help you in the end even though all you are trying to do is destroy science.

So the next time you go to the doctor's office, remember not to tell them "Hey, I'm a creationist, so I want the medicine from 1945 because I 'know' that the pathogens cannot have evolved" because that will just end up hurting you.

I can not trust science's dating methods.

Way too many errors!

Along with the circular reasoning in dating. The dirt is this old so the bones are this old, the bones are this old so the dirt must be this old.

[KJV]

polymath257 wrote:

<quoted text>Why is it that creationists think that all dating is carbon dating? Yes, carbon dating needs to be calibrated. But Uranium dating does not. Neither does Rb-Sr dating. And *all* dates before about 100,000 years are something other than carbon dating.

So once again, the Bible is not even close.

"However, since in the uranium-lead process there is no way of precisely determining the original amount of primordial lead (the best we can do is use an estimate based on the average concentration of lead-204 found today), some error is introduced in this part of the calculation (most radio-dates using the uranium-lead techniques vary by a few percent plus or minus). Therefore the uranium-lead dating technique tends to give a wider range of dates than other methods, and it is generally considered to be the least precise of the radio-dating methods. As a result, it has largely been abandoned"

[KJV]

polymath257 wrote:

<quoted text>Why is it that creationists think that all dating is carbon dating? Yes, carbon dating needs to be calibrated. But Uranium dating does not. Neither does Rb-Sr dating. And *all* dates before about 100,000 years are something other than carbon dating.

So once again, the Bible is not even close.

"The models suggests pseudotachylyte-host rock dating is unlikely to produce real ages of pseudotachylyte formation. Worse, because many pseudotachylytes apparently form during cooling and uplift, the technique will instead yield a seemingly reasonable but geologically meaningless date. Certain approaches to the problem, including a microstructural analysis coupled with a whole rock- biotite age on the same rock, may yield an actual age of pseudotachylyte formation, but the assumptions made heretofore about the behavior of the Rb-Sr system at the time of pseudotachylyte formation are questionable."

http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/GJ/pdf/370...

[KJV]

The World After the Flood

Upon leaving the ark, Noah offered a sacrifice to God. Noah gave to God one of every clean animal and bird. Remember that on entering the ark, Noah brought in seven of every clean animal and bird. Therefore, the odd animal was used in the sacrifice. God finds Noah's sacrifice acceptable and promises to never curse the earth again nor destroy life on the earth, no matter how evil mankind becomes. God had cursed the earth when Adam and Eve sinned, bringing forth weeds and thorns (Genesis 3:17). He also cursed the earth with the flood waters, destroying every living thing on the earth (Genesis 6:13).

While the earth remains, the seasons would continue to cycle. This is the first mention of seasons in the Bible. Some speculate that alterations to the earth in the flood brought on the seasons, but there is no way to prove such a point. Notice that the condition on God's promise is "while the earth remains." God is not promising that the earth will remain forever. He is saying that the seasons will not be interrupted as they were during the flood while the earth remains in existence. We know that one day, this world will be destroyed for God has promised its destruction (II Peter 3:10).

[-Skeptic-]

KJV wrote:

The World After the Flood
Upon leaving the ark, Noah offered a sacrifice to God. Noah gave to God one of every clean animal and bird. Remember that on entering the ark, Noah brought in seven of every clean animal and bird. Therefore, the odd animal was used in the sacrifice. God finds Noah's sacrifice acceptable and promises to never curse the earth again nor destroy life on the earth, no matter how evil mankind becomes. God had cursed the earth when Adam and Eve sinned, bringing forth weeds and thorns (Genesis 3:17). He also cursed the earth with the flood waters, destroying every living thing on the earth (Genesis 6:13).
While the earth remains, the seasons would continue to cycle. This is the first mention of seasons in the Bible. Some speculate that alterations to the earth in the flood brought on the seasons, but there is no way to prove such a point. Notice that the condition on God's promise is "while the earth remains." God is not promising that the earth will remain forever. He is saying that the seasons will not be interrupted as they were during the flood while the earth remains in existence. We know that one day, this world will be destroyed for God has promised its destruction (II Peter 3:10).

Prove any of this creationist horsesh*t you lying sack of sh*t troll.

[Khatru]

KJV wrote:

<quoted text>
You show again that you do not Know the word of the Bible.
"Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah,“The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.(Genesis 6:11-13)(NASB)"
all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
1) all flesh including the dinosaurs
2) on earth. Not in the sea
All land animals and man had become corrupt.
All did not die in the flood. Two of each kind were save upon the ark. That is not to say that they were not hunted to extinction by man,or failed to make a go of it after the earth had changed so much. Mans life span was shortened after the flood by God to 120 years.
The earth was no more the rich plush land it was before the water from above that acted as a shield against harmful rays from the Sun came raining down for 40 days and nights.
Yes the animals of the land were put to death by God the same as man.

Dinosaurs also existed in the sea, you know.