Asking the right questions of religious believers

Feb 26, 2011 Full story: Mano Singham's Web Journal 444

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Andre

Durban, South Africa

#427 Oct 13, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
Unless you follow the loving direction that our King Jesus Christ is giving mankind through his subjects of God's Kingdom, you will not get the accurate knowledge of God's word or his will today. Matthew 7:21
There were no false prophets or prophecies made by Jehovah's witnesses that were not done for a specific purpose, that was to clean out Jehovah's organization of the unfaithful. 1Kings chapter 13
I doubt whether you are a Bible believer at all(Please note, not implying a Christian as a result) as your comments show a complete lack of knowledge,insight and relevance.

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#428 Oct 13, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
Unless you follow the loving direction that our King Jesus Christ is giving mankind through his subjects of God's Kingdom, you will not get the accurate knowledge of God's word or his will today. Matthew 7:21
There were no false prophets or prophecies made by Jehovah's witnesses that were not done for a specific purpose, that was to clean out Jehovah's organization of the unfaithful. 1Kings chapter 13
LOL!!!! Rewriting history now? LOL!!!!!

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#429 Oct 13, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>I doubt whether you are a Bible believer at all(Please note, not implying a Christian as a result) as your comments show a complete lack of knowledge,insight and relevance.
You have to understand.... The JW's didn't like what was in the real Bible, so they just rewrote it to suit their cult. They aren't christians any more than the branch Davidians were, or the Jim Jones followers were. It's just another cult that claims they are "true" christians. Basically, they are a joke in the religious world.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#430 Oct 14, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
You have to understand.... The JW's didn't like what was in the real Bible, so they just rewrote it to suit their cult. They aren't christians any more than the branch Davidians were, or the Jim Jones followers were. It's just another cult that claims they are "true" christians. Basically, they are a joke in the religious world.
Yes, you are quite correct. It is quite a pity that our friend does not want to enter into logical conversation. But the issue I suppose is not "winning" an argument, but rather to allow JW's to critically evaluate what they are being taught. Unfortunately arguments will in most cases not really convince a person - sometimes our beliefs are so strongly held that we are incapable of seeing anything else as having merit.
But he is right in one aspect, and that is humility. Our own self seems often the reason why we will not submit to Christ. As Frank Sinatra sings "I'll do it my way".

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#431 Oct 14, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, you are quite correct. It is quite a pity that our friend does not want to enter into logical conversation. But the issue I suppose is not "winning" an argument, but rather to allow JW's to critically evaluate what they are being taught. Unfortunately arguments will in most cases not really convince a person - sometimes our beliefs are so strongly held that we are incapable of seeing anything else as having merit.
But he is right in one aspect, and that is humility. Our own self seems often the reason why we will not submit to Christ. As Frank Sinatra sings "I'll do it my way".
The JW cult uses fear very effectivly to keep their members in line. It is mind control, plain and simple.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#432 Oct 14, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
The JW cult uses fear very effectively to keep their members in line. It is mind control, plain and simple.
You are quite correct. I suppose the "mind control" through fear is the case with most cults.
Just a question - I think you mentioned that you were once convinced of the Christian faith, but later came to a different conclusion. What caused this ?

Since: Dec 10

Orefield, PA

#433 Oct 14, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You are quite correct. I suppose the "mind control" through fear is the case with most cults.
Just a question - I think you mentioned that you were once convinced of the Christian faith, but later came to a different conclusion. What caused this ?
Several things.

It started with an obsevation that a belief in god did not protect anyone, and that prayer does not work. Also, I observed that too many folks who claim to be christian, were scumbags, and got away with it. I also noticed the judgmental attitude of many "Christians". that turned me off. Than I started to ask questions.... I had read the Bible front to back several times before any of this, so I was well aware of what is in there. When you read the Bible without the perspective that god is above his stated morality, the god in the Bible becomes something less than admirable. Actually, he becomes pretty rotten. I briefly looked at other religions, with very similar results. Than I examined history... History is overflowing with gods that are now considered amusing myths. Why should I think anything different of present day gods.

This took a very long time. It is VERY difficult to undo forty+ years of comfortable belief as part of the majority... Waking up at night terrified at the thought that there is really nothing after death is a tough one too, but I got over all of that, and now I am happier than ever.
Jehovah is God

Muskogee, OK

#434 Oct 15, 2012
The Bible says, faith is not the possession of all people, and some people can live their life without faith in anyone else except themself.

Making your own standard of faith in yourself is not new, it is the original purpose of Satan the Devil, he wants you to believe only in yourself.

(1 Corinthians 2:14-16) 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually.

15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#435 Oct 15, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
Several things.
It started with an obsevation that a belief in god did not protect anyone, and that prayer does not work.
Protection: You are right. Being a Christian does not make you “immune” against bad things happening to you. In my experience you receive the grace to deal with it. The one example that has really made an impact on me is that of Job. Everything was taken away but then the verse:“Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
Thus even though I may at times suffer hardship, ill health etc., I still trust God. This may seem like a “defeatist attitude”, but this is not what I experienced. It was more like at peace with circumstances.
Prayer does not work.
That is not an easy question. To claim that all prayers will be answered in the positive, will be a lie. Prayers are to be made subject to the Father’s will. Consider Jesus’ own request before He was taken “prisoner” Luk 22:42 "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
If we however ask something in accordance with the will of the Father, and believe that we will receive it, we will. As an example, I helped a friend in his shop, with a lot of Muslims in the area. Whenever I approached them with the Gospel on my own, it almost always developed into an argument. Whenever I asked God to grant me the opportunity to speak with the chaps, it was a totally different case –with the opportunity arising by itself.
So faith and trust, asking according to God’s will, will bear positive fruit. God is not a “genie”, but our Father that promises not to give us ” a snake” when we ask for bread. Again the issue of trust but then also belief. We all have a lot to learn on this, I believe. I think we do not realise the power of prayer, and we also expect results now, right now. Abraham had to wait a long time despite receiving a promise.
Also, I observed that too many folks who claim to be christian, were scumbags, and got away with it. I also noticed the judgmental attitude of many "Christians". that turned me off.
Scumbags/judgemental: Yes, if we judge Christianity by the lives of many people calling themselves Christians, many would turn away from the faith. But there are a great number of Christians living holy lives. I heard a story about a guy complaining that these “scumbags” stand between him and Christ. So the other guy replied:“at least, they are closer to Jesus". If BMW drivers are generally inconsiderate,(and I do not say they are), would that make BMW by definition a bad car?
Than I started to ask questions.... I had read the Bible front to back several times before any of this, so I was well aware of what is in there. When you read the Bible without the perspective that god is above his stated morality, the god in the Bible becomes something less than admirable. Actually, he becomes pretty rotten. I briefly looked at other religions, with very similar results. Than I examined history... History is overflowing with gods that are now considered amusing myths. Why should I think anything different of present day gods.
This took a very long time. It is VERY difficult to undo forty+ years of comfortable belief as part of the majority...
God being less than admirable:
Anybody suggesting that there are no difficult passages in the Bible that seems difficult to reconcile with a just and fair God, would not be honest. Just one example would be the one addressed here ( http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/04/20/dif... )
But maybe we can consider a specific issue ?
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#436 Oct 16, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
The Bible says, faith is not the possession of all people, and some people can live their life without faith in anyone else except themself.
Making your own standard of faith in yourself is not new, it is the original purpose of Satan the Devil, he wants you to believe only in yourself.
(1 Corinthians 2:14-16) 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually.
15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
My dear friend, your posts do not reflect a grasp of the Bible. Just quoting individual texts "demonizing" anybody that holds a view different to yours without being able to defend honest questions, reflects a spirit altogether different from that of Jesus.
One last chance: Shall we worship Jesus?

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#437 Oct 16, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
The Bible says, faith is not the possession of all people, and some people can live their life without faith in anyone else except themself.
Making your own standard of faith in yourself is not new, it is the original purpose of Satan the Devil, he wants you to believe only in yourself.
(1 Corinthians 2:14-16) 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually.
15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
You have religion'd yourself stupid.
Jehovah is God

Muskogee, OK

#438 Oct 16, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>My dear friend, your posts do not reflect a grasp of the Bible. Just quoting individual texts "demonizing" anybody that holds a view different to yours without being able to defend honest questions, reflects a spirit altogether different from that of Jesus.
One last chance: Shall we worship Jesus?
If you cannot understand my posts, that means the truth is not meant for you, it is hidden by God's holy spirit from you. We are being judged today by Jesus as King and Judge of God's Kingdom, only the meek and honest hearted are being gathered by Jesus for survival into God's new world of righteousness.

Luke 10:21,22

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#439 Oct 16, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>God being less than admirable:
Anybody suggesting that there are no difficult passages in the Bible that seems difficult to reconcile with a just and fair God, would not be honest. Just one example would be the one addressed here ( http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2011/04/20/dif... )
But maybe we can consider a specific issue ?
“You can cite a hundred references to show that the biblical God is a bloodthirsty tyrant, but if they can dig up two or three verses that say God is love, they will claim that *you* are taking things out of context!”~ Dan Barker

“It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me--it's the parts that I do understand.”~ Mark Twain
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#440 Oct 16, 2012
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
“You can cite a hundred references to show that the biblical God is a bloodthirsty tyrant, but if they can dig up two or three verses that say God is love, they will claim that *you* are taking things out of context!”~ Dan Barker
“It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me--it's the parts that I do understand.”~ Mark Twain
You are correct. You can have the Bible say almost anything you want, and if you approach it with a "preconceived" idea, the more likely that is to happen.
As far as "bloodthirsty" is concerned, one could look at some examples that you wish to provide and consider them.

One of the questions that people ask is "How can a loving God send people to hell?" It is clear from the Bible that God is not only a God of mercy and compassion, but also a God whose wrath is also "unleashed" against evil and those that fail to obey his commands - not a favorite topic nowadays.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#441 Oct 17, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
<quoted text>
If you cannot understand my posts, that means the truth is not meant for you, it is hidden by God's holy spirit from you. We are being judged today by Jesus as King and Judge of God's Kingdom, only the meek and honest hearted are being gathered by Jesus for survival into God's new world of righteousness.
Luke 10:21,22
Simple question: Shall we worship Jesus?

I just considered that you may have a problem in understanding these very basic questions. Is your home language any other than English? I will try and have it translated into your mother tongue.
Jehovah is God

Muskogee, OK

#442 Oct 18, 2012
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Simple question: Shall we worship Jesus?
I just considered that you may have a problem in understanding these very basic questions. Is your home language any other than English? I will try and have it translated into your mother tongue.
Jesus taught his followers to love and worship or obey Almighty God Jehovah, as he did his whole life. John 14:30,31

If you make Jesus the same as Almighty God Jehovah, you are disobeying the direction of Jesus Christ at John 4:24.
Joe

Thompson, OH

#443 Oct 19, 2012
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
The JW cult uses fear very effectivly to keep their members in line. It is mind control, plain and simple.
Thats correct.And thier biggest fear should be knocking on the wrong door at 7 am on sunday morning and getting a shotgun in thier face.Any religion that teaches you to forcefully push it on other people is nothing but a cult.They rewrote the King James version of the bible to suit themselves,and they will burn in he11 for that.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#444 Oct 21, 2012
Jehovah is God wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus taught his followers to love and worship or obey Almighty God Jehovah, as he did his whole life. John 14:30,31
"Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence."

Thanks for your response but you have lost me. In the first instance you do not address worship and secondly, it is impossible to see how you come to the conclusion from this text that Jesus instructs his followers to obey and worship Almighty God Jehovah. Jesus indicates that He does what the Father commands.(v 30 has no relevance either. You may know that JW has held a number of positions on whether to worship Jesus or not.
If you make Jesus the same as Almighty God Jehovah, you are disobeying the direction of Jesus Christ at John 4:24.
"Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Now I am not quite sure what you mean by disobeying Jesus. The word used for God here is not Jehovah but “ theos”,similar to that used for instance in the following verse.
"Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (which is Jesus)

Also consider:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
and
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Secondly, the text refers to how we should worship God. The following is an extract claimed as an extract from Calvin's "Tracts and letters"-
"But the first inquiry which presents itself here is, Why, and in what sense, is the worship of God called spiritual? To understand this, we must attend to the contrast between the spirit and outward emblems, as between the shadows and the truth. The worship of God is said to consist in the spirit, because it is nothing else than that inward faith of the heart which produces prayer, and, next, purity of conscience and self-denial, that we may be dedicated to obedience to God as holy sacrifices. Hence arises another question, Did not the fathers worship Him spiritually under the Law? I reply, as God is always like himself, he did not from the beginning of the world approve of any other worship than that which is spiritual, and which agrees with his own nature. This is abundantly attested by Moses himself, who declares in many passages that the Law has no other object than that the people may cleave to God with faith and a pure conscience. But it is still more plainly declared by the Prophets when they attack with severity the hypocrisy of the people, because they thought that they had satisfied God, when they had performed the sacrifices and made an outward display."

It is thus very evident that you want to read into the text something which is not nearly there to be “consistent” with your doctrine. Please read the Bible yourself and without preconceived ideas. You are being led by people.
Atheist for good reason

Bellefontaine, OH

#445 Oct 21, 2012
Did Adam & Eve have navels?
Andre

Durban, South Africa

#446 Oct 22, 2012
Atheist for good reason wrote:
Did Adam & Eve have navels?
Not quite sure. There were lots of fruit to choose from, but whether they had navels- your guess is as good as mine.

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