Asking the right questions of religious believers

[Andre]

The serpent was right wrote:

<quoted text>
I understand your point, although I do not necessarily agree that it is valid. You did however bring up a very good point. When one is indoctrinated from birth(Or at a very young age), and is taught a very comforting message, along with a very scary warning, it is very difficult to break free from that indoctrination, add to that, the fact that the belief is part of the majority belief, not only in the persons' family, but in society in general, it makes breaking away even more difficult.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss issues in a civil manner, I appreciate that.
Indoctrination
I would agree 100% that “breaking away” would be very difficult for a person that comes from a totally different background, especially if the background, social environment is antagonistic towards the “newly adopted” belief system. I do not particularly like the word “indoctrinated” as that conjures up images of “brainwashing”. It would in most cases be for instance parents and others with the best intentions teach their children their belief system.

As for the prediction of events in the end times... All holy books and texts have a very similar warning, and for good reason. Think of it not as prophecy, but as a form of self-protection of the belief system itself. If you wanted to keep adherents to your religion in line, you would naturally warn them about listening to others, and you would reinforce a fear of eternal damnation.

Prediction of end times /Prophecy seems to me to serve at least one purpose: Encouragement to Christians -knowing that God is in total control. There may be some people that would cling to Christianity because of fear of end times. There are cults that rely on fear to keep their converts, but that is not my experience and in any of the books that I read (mainly purists who placed a lot more emphasis on judgement)

It is difficult to respond to flaws as you do not mention specific examples, but I will be happy to respond if you would like to mention specifics.

It just seems funny to me that an all knowing god wouldn't say for instance "It is bad to keep slaves", or, "There are no such things as witches".

It is true that the Bible does not address what we now see as social evils. The question is whether slavery in itself a sin? I cannot say that slavery is a sin if the “slave-master” treats his slaves properly, pays them a decent wage etc. For this reason, provision is even made for slaves to choose to remain with his owner (e.g. Exo 21:5 And if the slave truly says, I love my master, my wife and my children; I do not desire to go out free,).
It is true that people are often exploited - even in today’s economy – hence the trade union movement. That one was legally bound to a master is of course different, but it does not imply abuse of slaves. You will possibly know of a few friends that are “abused” by their masters, but due to circumstances cannot leave their employ.

Witchcraft is obviously a rejection of God. I think that many people have the expectation that God should only be kind, loving, forgiving and generous. This is only part of the truth. The other part is clearly stated :
Deu_6:15 for Jehovah your God is a jealous God in your midst, lest the anger of Jehovah your God burn against you, and He destroy you from off the face of the earth.
This is also fully consistent with the idea of hell, where judgment and punishment is meted out to unbelievers.
Israel was God's special people and all evil was to be eradicated, by means which we now frown on - I believe because we have "domesticated" sin to become "not so bad"

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
You are making Jesus Almighty God Jehovah, when Jesus is not God, but the Lamb of God and the only begotten son of Jehovah God. Those titles of Jesus as Messianic King means he will rule over this earth for a thousand years for Almighty God Jehovah, that is the reward Jesus recieves for his dying faithful as Jehovah's witness. 1Corinthians 15:20-28
Revelation 1:5

Would you kindly respond to my request for an explanation? I would like to suggest that you can only "parrot" what you have been told as the truth.

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
You are making Jesus Almighty God Jehovah, when Jesus is not God, but the Lamb of God and the only begotten son of Jehovah God. Those titles of Jesus as Messianic King means he will rule over this earth for a thousand years for Almighty God Jehovah, that is the reward Jesus recieves for his dying faithful as Jehovah's witness. 1Corinthians 15:20-28
Revelation 1:5

To help you a little, In Isaiah, Jesus is portrayed as the Father, and in Rev 1:8 Jesus is "the Almighty". If you care to comment on that?(Also read Rev.1:11-13)

[Jehovah is God]

Andre wrote:

<quoted text>To help you a little, In Isaiah, Jesus is portrayed as the Father, and in Rev 1:8 Jesus is "the Almighty". If you care to comment on that?(Also read Rev.1:11-13)

The spiritually blind stay blind because they love the darkness.

Unless you pray for Jehovah God's holy spirit or the helper to adjust your spiritual eyesight, you will never see the truth of Scripture in these last days of this world ruled by Satan the Devil, the god of darkness. 2Corinthians 4:4

(John 15:26, 27). . .When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and YOU, in turn, are to bear witness, because YOU have been with me from when I began.

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
The spiritually blind stay blind because they love the darkness.
Unless you pray for Jehovah God's holy spirit or the helper to adjust your spiritual eyesight, you will never see the truth of Scripture in these last days of this world ruled by Satan the Devil, the god of darkness. 2Corinthians 4:4
(John 15:26, 27). . .When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and YOU, in turn, are to bear witness, because YOU have been with me from when I began.

My dear friend,you are unable to respond with anything resembling a logical answer and trust that this will encourage you to search the Scriptures yourself rather than being told what to believe. Take a good book on understanding the Bible (RC Sproul has a basic little book that will help a lot.)http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-S...

[Jehovah is God]

Andre wrote:

<quoted text>My dear friend,you are unable to respond with anything resembling a logical answer and trust that this will encourage you to search the Scriptures yourself rather than being told what to believe. Take a good book on understanding the Bible (RC Sproul has a basic little book that will help a lot.)http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-S...

Jehovah's witnesses are not told what to believe, we are taught the Bible and learn to apply the standard and principles that are required by true Christians, in other words we live the truth becuase we understand it.

You on the other hand can only quote Scripture, anyone can do that just as Satan did to Jesus. Matthew 4:5

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
Jehovah's witnesses are not told what to believe, we are taught the Bible and learn to apply the standard and principles that are required by true Christians, in other words we live the truth becuase we understand it.
You on the other hand can only quote Scripture, anyone can do that just as Satan did to Jesus. Matthew 4:5

Then kindly respond with a proper exegesis of the texts mentioned (in context). You should be well equipped to do so as you "understand it". I am always willing to learn.

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
Jehovah's witnesses are not told what to believe, we are taught the Bible and learn to apply the standard and principles that are required by true Christians, in other words we live the truth becuase we understand it.
You on the other hand can only quote Scripture, anyone can do that just as Satan did to Jesus. Matthew 4:5

But let me guess....ummmmmm....no, you are not going to give me a straight answer.

[The serpent was right]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
Jehovah's witnesses are not told what to believe, we are taught the Bible and learn to apply the standard and principles that are required by true Christians, in other words we live the truth becuase we understand it.
You on the other hand can only quote Scripture, anyone can do that just as Satan did to Jesus. Matthew 4:5

You are lying.
Jw's are told EXACTLY what to believe,and how to live.
I would be happy to post some very real proof.

[Hedonist]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
Jehovah's witnesses are not told what to believe, we are taught the Bible and learn to apply the standard and principles that are required by true Christians, in other words we live the truth because we understand it.

Every religion makes this claim.

[Andre]

Hedonist wrote:

<quoted text>
Every religion makes this claim.

Add to that that within each religion there are differences, making claim to the only truth.
In some cases, as in JW,there is (initially)one central person that "dictates" what is the truth. Also with SDA, where Ellen White is regarded as "having the spirit of prophecy", and her interpretation accepted as the true interpretation. You will find this in (I think) all cults that one person dominates.
It seems to me that the "distinguishing" aspect is the person of Jesus Christ. The Muslims make him a prophet, J.W. a created being and not God, SDA that Jesus is Michael the Archangel etc.
How does a person make sense of all this? Is it a case of "pick the best of the lot" and stick to your guns? This is I suppose where indoctrination comes in, accepting the word of another without evaluating it - contrary to what the Bereans did - who considered the teachings of Paul(Acts 17:11). We often make a "hero" out of a person and follow him rather than carefully examine his teachings.

[-Skeptic-]

Andre wrote:

<quoted text>Add to that that within each religion there are differences, making claim to the only truth.
In some cases, as in JW,there is (initially)one central person that "dictates" what is the truth. Also with SDA, where Ellen White is regarded as "having the spirit of prophecy", and her interpretation accepted as the true interpretation. You will find this in (I think) all cults that one person dominates.
It seems to me that the "distinguishing" aspect is the person of Jesus Christ. The Muslims make him a prophet, J.W. a created being and not God, SDA that Jesus is Michael the Archangel etc.
How does a person make sense of all this? Is it a case of "pick the best of the lot" and stick to your guns? This is I suppose where indoctrination comes in, accepting the word of another without evaluating it - contrary to what the Bereans did - who considered the teachings of Paul(Acts 17:11). We often make a "hero" out of a person and follow him rather than carefully examine his teachings.

You're a proven liar lying about a non-existent god. Go away and find a mental health doctor to cure you of your hallucinations about non-existent figments of your imagination.

[Jehovah is God]

Andre wrote:

<quoted text>Then kindly respond with a proper exegesis of the texts mentioned (in context). You should be well equipped to do so as you "understand it". I am always willing to learn.

You must seek and find the truth, that means that you have to find the Scriptural answers from Jehovah's witnesses where you live. Unless you have a one on one Bible study you cannot learn God's will today.

The titles given to Jesus are in fulfillment of Almighty God Jehovah giving his son Jesus the Kingdom government of heaven to rule over this earth for one thousand years. Jesus is not God, and at the end of that thousand years, Jesus gives the Kingdom back to Almighty God Jehovah ... after Jesus restores that world of mankind to perfection.

(1 Corinthians 15:21-28) 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

27 For [God]“subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

[Praise Jehovah]

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[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

<quoted text>
You must seek and find the truth, that means that you have to find the Scriptural answers from Jehovah's witnesses where you live. Unless you have a one on one Bible study you cannot learn God's will today.

Can you justify that from Scripture? Not in your life, my friend. You now actually have a one-on-one opportunity and I have asked you a question which you seem unwilling/unable to answer. You have defeated your very own argument by being unable to provide Scriptural answers.
Thus you will excuse me if I do not take you seriously as your responses thus far confirms the perception that you are being “brainwashed” to accept what you are being taught and unable to defend honest questions. Thank you for openly proving the perceptions about JW valid.

[Andre]

Praise Jehovah wrote:

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I am sorry to say that you do more damage to Christ and Christianity in one post than most people do in a lifetime. This is typical extremist, illogical and really absurd behaviour.

[Jehovah is God]

Like I already said, unless you are meek and humble, you will not seek the truth from Almighty God Jehovah's channel he is using today to educate his people.
Isaiah 43:10

Only the meek, those desiring to be fed God's word of truth from Almighty God Jehovah's people will survive the end of this world. Psalm 37:11

Can only imagine the excuses people came up with, so they wouldn't have to admit that Noah was right, and get into that Ark. Only 8 people survived that destruction, and only a few will survive the coming destruction of this unrighteous world.

(Matthew 24:36-40) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

[The serpent was right]

Jehovah is God wrote:

Like I already said, unless you are meek and humble, you will not seek the truth from Almighty God Jehovah's channel he is using today to educate his people.
Isaiah 43:10
Only the meek, those desiring to be fed God's word of truth from Almighty God Jehovah's people will survive the end of this world. Psalm 37:11
Can only imagine the excuses people came up with, so they wouldn't have to admit that Noah was right, and get into that Ark. Only 8 people survived that destruction, and only a few will survive the coming destruction of this unrighteous world.
(Matthew 24:36-40) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

I assume you don't understand that a flood as described in the bible is an impossibility.

[Andre]

Jehovah is God wrote:

Like I already said, unless you are meek and humble, you will not seek the truth from Almighty God Jehovah's channel he is using today to educate his people.
Isaiah 43:10

Just a few questions:
1. So what do you suggest one should do in order to become meek and humble? Please substantiate from Scripture.(Please refrain from assumptions/your own interpretation)
2. Please explain the “channel” that Jehova uses – again with scriptural proof.
3. I notice that the word Jehova is only used in the Old Testament. Is it also the same God of the New Testament?

The text you refer to is addressed to the Israelites to call them to witness that there are no other gods beside God himself, and challenges other “gods” to declare future events that (consistently) come true. In this JW has failed dismally.
In this respect you are referred to:
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
The following are some of the issues mentioned (See http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm )
1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)
1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)
1889 "Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)
1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
1897 "Complete destruction of the 'powers that be' of 'this present evil worlds - political, financial, ecclesiastical - about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)
1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)
1911:“Armageddon would end in 1914.(The Time is at Hand. page 101, 1911 Edition).”
1915 : Armageddon would end in 1915.(The Time is At Hand, page 101, 1915 Edition).
1943: "Man cannot by airplane or rockets or other means get above the air envelop which is about our earthly globe..." (The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 285, 1943 edition.)

So many false prophecies and you still believe in JW rendering of the "truth"?

[Jehovah is God]

Unless you follow the loving direction that our King Jesus Christ is giving mankind through his subjects of God's Kingdom, you will not get the accurate knowledge of God's word or his will today. Matthew 7:21

There were no false prophets or prophecies made by Jehovah's witnesses that were not done for a specific purpose, that was to clean out Jehovah's organization of the unfaithful. 1Kings chapter 13