Pat Robertson Concludes Sikh Temple Shooting Because 'Atheists Hate God'

Aug 6, 2012 | Posted by: NightSerf | Full story: www.mediaite.com

On his 700 Club program Monday morning, televangelist Pat Robertson came to the conclusion that Sunday morning’s Sikh temple massacre in Oak Creek, Wisc., was ultimately because “atheists hate God.”

“What is it?” Robertson wondered aloud. “Is it satanic? Is it some spiritual thing?”
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181 - 200 of 202 Comments Last updated Aug 12, 2012
Kermudgeon

Buffalo, NY

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#191
Aug 11, 2012
 

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Romney has never even met a non-white.
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

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#192
Aug 11, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
That's an interesting juxtaposition - this question right here, right now. You seemed to have cherry picked one concept from the hundreds in your creation myth with only fact from cherry picked from physics.
Let me turn that around for you: Do you trust Hawking or just cherry picks the comments you like? Because you seem to have cherry picked a quote - aka quote mined - of his. He also said the following. From "Stephen Hawking: God did not create Universe" at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493 :
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing ... Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist ... It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."
Roger Penrose says there is absolutely no proof to his claim and it is speculation, nothing more.

It is an accepted theory that time began at the moment of the Big Bang so we don't need Hawking 's opinion to confirm . Heck Augustine said it 1400 years before Hawking borrowed his idea.LOL.

" time was a property of the universe that God created and time did not exist before the beginning of the universe."
St Augustine of Hippo (400 AD)


Oh well, better late than never.
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

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#193
Aug 11, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would I believe this? The American Spectator is a magazine with a politically conservative agenda. Your article's author appears to have gotten his "data" from a Christian web site called the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, including such hard science as, "Atheists are thought to be 137 million, a declining number" and "These atheists are presumably disproportionately represented in the West".
"Thought to be"? "Presumably"?
How reliable is this Christian web site? Let them tell you themselves. They call themselves, "The reliable source for Christian mission history."
This is called Christian propaganda, and it's written to make you feel better about your church dying in the West. You can tell when it refers to all killed Christians as "martyrs," or when it includes language like the following:
"But overall, despite the distortions of secular, U.S. elite culture, people of faith in America and around the world can be hopeful that faith, and not Western secularism, represents the future for the vast majority of the world."
Mean old secular elites. Unlike the warriors for Jesus, they distort everything!


According to Oxford's ex atheist Alister McGrath, atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat,"


Reasons cited for the decline of atheism include:

Substantive challenges to naturalistic explanations for the origin of life

Substantive challenges to psychological theories viewing religion as a pathology, and a scientific demonstration of the health benefits of a spiritual life

Philosophical challenges to the presuppositions and axioms of atheism, such as materialism

The decline of Marxism and Leninism

Tenuousness of belief in atheism by many of its own believers

Reduction in atheism and resurgence of theistic belief worldwide

Inhuman acts committed by atheists throughout the 20th century.
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

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#194
Aug 11, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Dude. You're a Christian. What do you care about proof or evidence?
Plus, you don't seem to grasp what "theoretical" means in "theoretical physics," or the place of speculation at the frontiers of knowledge. If you have to know how and where to look to find something, you can't find it until you conceive of it. Theoretical physicists are looking for branes, multiverses, oscillating universes, and anything else they can think of to account for the visible universe. If they find any of those, or a god, the scientists have promised to let us know.
Your god is in the same category as the multiverse and branes - a speculation. But it is at the bottom of the list of possibilities, because it has to be so much more complex than they do. Unlike the other possibilities, the creator god has to be a conscious and superpotent agent - omnipotent and omniscient, according to the Christians. That's a pretty tall order. Occam's razor insists that we remove unnecessary conditions or features, and a conscious creator may be unnecessary.
The only way we would need the source for the universe to be conscious and purposive is if we found that it was intelligently designed. The boys over at the Discovery Institute have zealously dedicated themselves to looking for just that, and they're all Christians of some sort, so you know that they have your church's best interests at heart, and will find that "proof" if it exists.
But without identifying intelligent designs, if multiverses are on shaky constructs, god speculations are on even shakier ground.


Wow, science fiction is alive and well, at least in your mind.

"The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming."
Freeman Dyson,theoretical physicist and mathematician, famous for his work in quantum field theory, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.
Dyson is a member of the Board of Sponsors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

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#195
Aug 11, 2012
 

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"The decline of atheism in terms of its global adherents is an established trend that will persist for the foreseeable future and the rate of decline will accelerate. In the Western World, which includes the UK, due to immigration and the higher birth rates of religious people.Com mitted religious populations are growing in the West, and will reverse the march of secularism before 2050."

University of London professor Eric Kaufman, "Shall the Righteous Inherit the Earth? Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century"

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

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#196
Aug 11, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
The murders had nothing to do with religion, or the "Reverend" Robertson's scapegoating of atheists?
The article says that the killer was a Christian of one of the white supremacist, neo-Nazi denominations. Robertson seems to have absolved the killer and his Christian cult for all of that, and simply proclaimed him an atheist.
This, of course, is just the latest installment in the centuries long program that has been waged by the Christian church against skeptics since the days of the rack, the stake, the pear, and the iron maiden. Now, they have to settle for atheophobic hate speech, which Robertson calls the love of his god:
"... you talk about the love of God and hope it has some impact"
It has impact all right. This scapegoating has made the lives of skeptics and freethinkers more difficult and more dangerous for eons. How dare we think!
I suspect that the intent behind Robertson's statement was even more batshit crazy than that. I think that he's say that no matter who actually did the shooting--even if he was a devout Christian--that the spiritual forces behind it were a result of atheists' hate for God. remember, he blamed the earthquake in Haiti on the lack of morality and modesty in the U.S or some such nonsense. He seems to thing that since atheists pissed of his petty little bully of a God, that He would think, "I'll show them atheists what for" and get someone to shoot up a Sikh temple.

Like I said, batshit crazy.
EdSed

Wishaw, UK

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#197
Aug 11, 2012
 
James E Holmes, aged 24 – 20th July – Aurora CO, USA
Robert Bales, 38 – 11th Mar – Afghanistan
Mohammed Merah, 23 – 11-22nd Mar – Toulouse, France
Wade Michael Page, 40 – 5th Aug – Oak Creek WI, USA
Ahmed Gul, 46 – 27.Apr.11 - Kabul, Afghanistan
Anders B Breivik, 32 – 22.7.11 – Utoya, Norway
Derrick Bird, 52 – 2.6.10 – Copeland, Cumbria, UK
Andrew Joseph Stack, 53 – Feb 2010 – Austin TX, USA
J A Wong, 41 – 3.4.09 – Birmingham, NY, USA
M K McLendon, 28 – 10.3.09 – AL, USA
N M Hasan, 39 – 5.11.09 – Fort Hood, TX, USA
Tim Kretschmer, 17 – 11.3.09 – Germany
Ahmed Ibrahim, 25 – 12.6.09 - Bagdad, Iraq
Mohammad Zaman, 30 – 25.9.09 – Afghanistan
K R Tates, 37 – 30.4.09 – Netherlands

Like most crime, spree killing is a male problem, age range children to 62 (at least), but...
http://www.thisis50.com/profiles/blogs/rare-c...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_...

(To NF.. Btw, shouldn't it be 'Nightsurf', not Nightserf?)

Since: Mar 11

United States

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#198
Aug 12, 2012
 

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Atheism is on the decline? So the percentage of people believing in God are going up? Not hardly. In fact if this were true why are religious groups working overtime trying to discredit atheists??

Needless to say your fantasy land is going downhill. People more than ever are more likely to be non believers and the percentage keeps going up.
downhill246 wrote:
"The decline of atheism in terms of its global adherents is an established trend that will persist for the foreseeable future and the rate of decline will accelerate. In the Western World, which includes the UK, due to immigration and the higher birth rates of religious people.Com mitted religious populations are growing in the West, and will reverse the march of secularism before 2050."
University of London professor Eric Kaufman, "Shall the Righteous Inherit the Earth? Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century"

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#199
Aug 12, 2012
 

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downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
According to Oxford's ex atheist Alister McGrath, atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat,"
Reasons cited for the decline of atheism include:
Substantive challenges to naturalistic explanations for the origin of life
Substantive challenges to psychological theories viewing religion as a pathology, and a scientific demonstration of the health benefits of a spiritual life
Philosophical challenges to the presuppositions and axioms of atheism, such as materialism
The decline of Marxism and Leninism
Tenuousness of belief in atheism by many of its own believers
Reduction in atheism and resurgence of theistic belief worldwide
Inhuman acts committed by atheists throughout the 20th century.
If atheisms in decline, why would you need to tell us by posting in a forum?

Do you honestly think Atheists become atheists because of other atheists?

Atheism isn't a cult like theism is. It's a pity that propoganda posters like you are too ignorant to realise how ridiculous you are when you say atheism is in decline, when science has cateogirically falsified your ridiculous creation story over centuries.

Since: Jun 07

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#200
Aug 12, 2012
 

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downhill246 wrote:
"The decline of atheism in terms of its global adherents is an established trend that will persist for the foreseeable future and the rate of decline will accelerate. In the Western World, which includes the UK, due to immigration and the higher birth rates of religious people.Com mitted religious populations are growing in the West, and will reverse the march of secularism before 2050."
University of London professor Eric Kaufman, "Shall the Righteous Inherit the Earth? Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century"
Here's a hint, instead of posting comments from worthless people with no background in science, why not try and post just a morsel of evidence for your bullsh*t god claim?

Try that, as it will quickly let you know how stupid trying to lie about atheism is.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

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#201
Aug 12, 2012
 

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EdSed wrote:
James E Holmes, aged 24 – 20th July – Aurora CO, USA
Robert Bales, 38 – 11th Mar – Afghanistan
Mohammed Merah, 23 – 11-22nd Mar – Toulouse, France
Wade Michael Page, 40 – 5th Aug – Oak Creek WI, USA
Ahmed Gul, 46 – 27.Apr.11 - Kabul, Afghanistan
Anders B Breivik, 32 – 22.7.11 – Utoya, Norway
Derrick Bird, 52 – 2.6.10 – Copeland, Cumbria, UK
Andrew Joseph Stack, 53 – Feb 2010 – Austin TX, USA
J A Wong, 41 – 3.4.09 – Birmingham, NY, USA
M K McLendon, 28 – 10.3.09 – AL, USA
N M Hasan, 39 – 5.11.09 – Fort Hood, TX, USA
Tim Kretschmer, 17 – 11.3.09 – Germany
Ahmed Ibrahim, 25 – 12.6.09 - Bagdad, Iraq
Mohammad Zaman, 30 – 25.9.09 – Afghanistan
K R Tates, 37 – 30.4.09 – Netherlands
Like most crime, spree killing is a male problem, age range children to 62 (at least), but...
http://www.thisis50.com/profiles/blogs/rare-c...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_...
(To NF.. Btw, shouldn't it be 'Nightsurf', not Nightserf?)
Well, it could have been NightSurf, but I was going for a fancy play of words when I came up with it nearly 25 years ago. I'm a night worker, belonging to the night much as a medieval serf used to belong to the land. and phonetically, there's the semi-ironic contrast of knight vs. serf. And yes, I was surfing the web at night, but at the time, "surfing"wasn't yet a commonly used term. the WWW was in its infancy, and I was using UseNet as my primary means of access. Most pages were mostly text-based, and internet advertising wasn't even considered viable yet.

Funny how much can change in a relatively short amount of time.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#202
Aug 12, 2012
 
downhill246 wrote:
Roger Penrose says there is absolutely no proof to his claim and it is speculation, nothing more.
You mean nothing less, don't you? Don't you base your life on a speculation?
downhill246 wrote:
It is an accepted theory that time began at the moment of the Big Bang so we don't need Hawking 's opinion to confirm. Heck Augustine said it 1400 years before Hawking borrowed his idea. LOL.

"time was a property of the universe that God created and time did not exist before the beginning of the universe." St Augustine of Hippo (400 AD)

Oh well, better late than never.
So, you consider Penrose a reliable source, do you? I bet you won't after you read this, where Penrose presents evidence and an argument for an eternally oscillating "bang-crunch-bang-crunch " universe. From "Penrose claims to have glimpsed universe before Big Bang" at http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010... :

"Circular patterns within the cosmic microwave background suggest that space and time did not come into being at the Big Bang but that our universe in fact continually cycles through a series of "aeons".

"He does not believe that space and time came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang but that the Big Bang was in fact just one in a series of many, with each big bang marking the start of a new "aeon" in the history of the universe.

"Penrose now claims to have found evidence for this theory in the cosmic microwave background ... Penrose and Gurzadyan say they have clearly identified concentric circles within the data – regions in the microwave sky in which the range of the radiation's temperature is markedly smaller than elsewhere.

According to Penrose and Gurzadyan, these circles allow us to "see through" the Big Bang into the aeon that would have existed beforehand. The circles, they say, are the marks left in our aeon by the spherical ripples of gravitational waves that were generated when black holes collided in the previous aeon. And they say that these circles pose a problem for inflationary theory because this theory says that the distribution of temperature variations across the sky should be Gaussian, or random, rather than having discernable structures within it."

BTW, that would have been an excellent place for your god to have left a message to all creatures in the universe - in the density distribution of the CMB.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#203
Aug 12, 2012
 
downhill246 wrote:
According to Oxford's ex atheist Alister McGrath, atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat,"

Reasons cited for the decline of atheism include:

Substantive challenges to naturalistic explanations for the origin of life

Substantive challenges to psychological theories viewing religion as a pathology, and a scientific demonstration of the health benefits of a spiritual life

Philosophical challenges to the presuppositions and axioms of atheism, such as materialism

The decline of Marxism and Leninism

Tenuousness of belief in atheism by many of its own believers

Reduction in atheism and resurgence of theistic belief worldwide

Inhuman acts committed by atheists throughout the 20th century.
He's a Christian apologist. They're all ex-atheists. And they don't have a good track record with honesty or reality.

This one begins by assuming that atheism is on the decline, which is wrong, and he conflates it with Marxism and Leninism.

He claims that philosophical materialism is on the decline and that there are substantive challenges to naturalism (essentially the same thing as materialism, as is physicalism), when there are none - just sophistic challenges coming from apologists like him.

And he falsely claims that people are rejecting the idea of religion as disease. Au contraire. They are just now hearing it described in those terms now that skeptics have a voice, and they are agreeing. The news confirms it.

Look at the entertainment media to see how American culture views your religion. The clergy, churches, zealots - they're all portrayed pretty unflatteringly. Priest is synonymous with pedophile, and only bankers have suffered more bad PR than clergy.

Christian apologetics is all fluff and spin, like the above. Nobody's fooled except you. The only place you can recruit is where you are unknown - with children, and in distant lands like Africa and Asia. And the Internet will make that much more difficult.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

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#204
Aug 12, 2012
 
"Christian apologetics is all fluff and spin, like the above. Nobody's fooled except you."

Pat Robertson was just CASHING IN on public sympathy over the shooting - it has nothing to do with "Atheists hate God", because according to him, Sikhs - and every other non-(evangelical) christian worships Satan.

Q: "Why [do] evangelical Christians tell non-Christians that Jesus (God) is the only way to Heaven? Those who are Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, etc. already know and have a relationship with God. Why is this? It seems disrespectful."

Robertson replied that it is not all disrespectful because all other religions really just worship “demonic powers.”

A: "No. They don’t have a relationship. There is the god of the Bible, who is Jehovah. When you see L-O-R-D in caps, that is the name. It’s not Allah, it’s not Brahma, it’s not Shiva, it’s not Vishnu, it’s not Buddha. It is Jehovah God. They don’t have a relationship with him. He is the God of all Gods. These others are mostly demonic powers. Sure they’re demons. There are many demons in the world."

I'm sure he's secretly and perfectly pleased with a few less "demon" worshipers in the world.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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Fennario

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#205
Aug 12, 2012
 
ChromiuMan wrote:
Robertson replied that it is not all disrespectful because all other religions really just worship “demonic powers.”
The thing to note is what this prominent and influential Christian calls love. It's pure hate. And this is how rank and file Christians learn to be so hateful while telling us how loving they are. Jerry Falwell was the same way.

Moral values are taught by example, not by scripture or sermon. The Christian example doesn't resemble love. When the words contradict the example, as with Robertson, who speaks about love even as he seethes hatred, it is the example that is taught, and they learn to call it love.

As a result, they can believe that anything attributable to their god is an act of love, however brutal, cruel, excessive, irrational or unforgiving.

It can't be good for them or the rest of us to have them raised like that by the tens of millions.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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Fennario

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#206
Aug 12, 2012
 
downhill246 wrote:
"The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming." Freeman Dyson
Why do you think this matters? Because he's famous? He's a Christian. You all talk like that.

He's also a global climate change denier. Not reassuring.

“Land of Entrapment”

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#207
Aug 12, 2012
 
EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>If no person does this stuff while they are 'sane' then it would seem to follow that none should face criminal prosecution.
And the 'why'(motivation) is all-important in anticipating who is at risk of committing such actions and understanding how to prevent them.
What I notice about your last three posts and one from Nightserf recently is that you seem to see this as a law-and-order issue? To my mind, it is also a psychological and societal one.
Intervention from community police or social services is in my mind, at least as regards crime prevention and getting timely help to the person at risk of committing of crime. I'm thinking in terms of my local community police officer (who was called Sergeant Flowers. Really!:-) or a nice lady with a handbag. You two seem to think exclusively in terms of swat-teams or the FBI? In the case where you passed info to the police, I suppose it was essential that the first intervention had to be armed police. No chance for a less confrontational approach to the individual?
Maybe that is partly the difference between an 'NRA society' and one without guns? And as you have suggested, that it is cultural (anti-state-intrusive); and that it is easier for people to go 'off the radar' in the US than it is in Europe.
The police certainly seem to have made a serious mistake in letting the source of your warning about the potential killer reach his ears. Good work on your part. Well done.
Not following on how the old woman with a purse or any one could even know about some of these potential spree killers. I was not at the scene, but was told that the police, upon arrival at his residence, noticed a gun on the counter by the phone. They cordoned off the block?...Upon their search, they discovered another arms cache. More like WMD that somehow came from the Viet Nam war.. From there, I don't know what has happenend. No, I am not the one to battle the NRA with you. When AMericans lay down their guns, is when they die, pretty much. The right to bear arms could be what is keeping the whole of Latin AMerica from invading us.
At any rate, not all in AMerica live a block or two from the cops. Many have to be able to defend themselves. There would be many more home invasions, etc. IMO if criminals were the only ones armed.
You can't compare America to the UK. Too different thought process'. Two different worlds.

“Land of Entrapment”

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#208
Aug 12, 2012
 
Part of that post was nixed. It took the cops an hour to talk him out. Then they searched.
EdSed

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#209
Aug 12, 2012
 
Thanks for that Nijoni.
Nijoni wrote:
<quoted text>
..... When AMericans lay down their guns, is when they die, pretty much. The right to bear arms could be what is keeping the whole of Latin AMerica from invading us..
Personal firearms kill citizens, not foreign invaders.
Nijoni wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't compare America to the UK. Too different thought process'. Two different worlds.
I do that all the time. It is becomeing an ever-more interconnected world. There's much to learn from each other - if one cares to do so..
http://edge.org/conversation/a-new-kind-of-so...
Living in our own national cocoons sounds impractical to me.(I can learn from you anyway, even if you learn nothing from me :-)

Clearly many of these killers are sane in the legal sense and can function quite well in society most of the time. The trick is to identify (1) who and (2) when they might not.
From:
http://whyfiles.org/2012/finding-the-killers-...
In fact, only 10 percent of violence is related to mental illness, says Edward Mulvey, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh, who sees little difference in the type of violence among people who are, and are not, mentally ill.“There is an idea that they do a lot more violence against strangers, but mostly it’s related to an acquaintance, a family member, the same as for non-mentally ill people". Unquote.
But he notes that people in the USA "A lot of people exist apart from regular daily contact with others.."
And what Tanay says (in the link) suggests that the USA doesn't have the social services arrangements that are likely to prove reactive and timely.

What I think I have learned that anticipating spree killings requires early intervention, as with limiting all types of crime. People almost never just go out and shoot people, there are warning signs that are usually only recognised in hindsight. UK social services can probably get better at that.

Another factor for the UK (and any society flexible and reasonable enough to introduce it) is tight gun controls. That seems to stop some sprees tends to limit the damage when a spree occurs.

Another factor is probably a good social safety net. Stress and isolation seem to be factors in pushing troubled or ill people into crisis. Remove that, the means to kill quickly and effectively, and eleviate the stress of feeling out of touch with people who are stable, well grounded role models - all of that is may help.

Some people feel 'like losers' or alienated from the local or national society which they often perceive as under attack or in which they have no stake. Many spree killers seem to feel inconsequential, rejected &/or inadaquate. All of these things can theoretically be better addressed (in the UK).

“Land of Entrapment”

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#210
Aug 12, 2012
 

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EdSed wrote:
Thanks for that Nijoni.
<quoted text> Personal firearms kill citizens, not foreign invaders.
<quoted text>I do that all the time. It is becomeing an ever-more interconnected world. There's much to learn from each other - if one cares to do so..
http://edge.org/conversation/a-new-kind-of-so...
Living in our own national cocoons sounds impractical to me.(I can learn from you anyway, even if you learn nothing from me :-)
Clearly many of these killers are sane in the legal sense and can function quite well in society most of the time. The trick is to identify (1) who and (2) when they might not.
From:
http://whyfiles.org/2012/finding-the-killers-...
In fact, only 10 percent of violence is related to mental illness, says Edward Mulvey, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh, who sees little difference in the type of violence among people who are, and are not, mentally ill.“There is an idea that they do a lot more violence against strangers, but mostly it’s related to an acquaintance, a family member, the same as for non-mentally ill people". Unquote.
But he notes that people in the USA "A lot of people exist apart from regular daily contact with others.."
And what Tanay says (in the link) suggests that the USA doesn't have the social services arrangements that are likely to prove reactive and timely.
What I think I have learned that anticipating spree killings requires early intervention, as with limiting all types of crime. People almost never just go out and shoot people, there are warning signs that are usually only recognised in hindsight. UK social services can probably get better at that.
Another factor for the UK (and any society flexible and reasonable enough to introduce it) is tight gun controls. That seems to stop some sprees tends to limit the damage when a spree occurs.
Another factor is probably a good social safety net. Stress and isolation seem to be factors in pushing troubled or ill people into crisis. Remove that, the means to kill quickly and effectively, and eleviate the stress of feeling out of touch with people who are stable, well grounded role models - all of that is may help.
Some people feel 'like losers' or alienated from the local or national society which they often perceive as under attack or in which they have no stake. Many spree killers seem to feel inconsequential, rejected &/or inadaquate. All of these things can theoretically be better addressed (in the UK).
You say several interesting things. However, I live in redneck land with Americans. You nor anyone soon will be convincing these folk to not be armed. I am attempting to explain to you the thought process' of why. You are Liberal minded. I am not so much. You seem to think a law will inspire people to obey it, whereas I know better. Come live on our southern border and then we can "Discuss" in your diplomatic terms. Lol-the real world is not the one you are living in. The UK is not the one and only role model of which Americans should follow. In many ways. IMO
America is unique and hopefully will develop as such. Wtih freedom and Justice for her inhabitants. Not laying down for another (Global)GOvt...OWO..ah, no thanks.

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