16 years old Christian girl abducted ...

16 years old Christian girl abducted and forcibly converted to Islam in Pakistan

There are 24 comments on the Pakistan Christian Post story from Nov 15, 2012, titled 16 years old Christian girl abducted and forcibly converted to Islam in Pakistan. In it, Pakistan Christian Post reports that:

Okara, Punjab: November 15, 2012. Shabana Masih daughter of Ghulam Masih age 16 years Christian girl, resident of 55/2-L Tehsil District Okara, was abducted raped and forcibly converted to Islam.

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Norwich, UK

#1 Nov 15, 2012
just another example of the peacefull loving relegion

all western people think of this poor girl and take action spread the word

“Tell it as it is.”

Since: Jun 12


#2 Nov 15, 2012
You cannot force anyone to change religion. You can force them to pretend to be a muslim under duress, but they will hate it with a vengeance. Give them the chance and they will abandon it without hesitation.
This could be how islam ends, when those forced into it, along with those who realise what it is, turn on their oppressors.

Norwich, UK

#3 Nov 16, 2012
this is how muslims make up there numbers Then say its a growing relegon Then if u want to leave they threaten u with death So nice?

Since: Nov 12

Bradford, UK

#4 Nov 16, 2012
2:256 - There is no compulsion in religion.....

16:156 - Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

4:19 - O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion.....

Actual Aussie

Cannington, Australia

#5 Nov 16, 2012
waky95, you seriously need to learn what abrogation means. Your quoted verses are abrogated by later, violent verses (think old testament vs new testament).

Successful are the believers who rape

This is the fourth quality of a successful Muslim according to chapter 23 (The Believers) of the Koran.

23:1 Successful indeed are the believers....
23:5 And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)
23:6 Except from ... the captives and slaves that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame

Taking a person against their will + sex = rape. Holding a person against their will + sex = rape.

Taking somebody captive or enslaving them is the ultimate of taking somebody against their will. There's no wilful choice here.

So waky95, do kindly learn your topic before you ignorantly parrot your politically correct lines.

Some further Quran

8:67 It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

Quran 8:39 "Fight them until faithlessness is no more, and religion becomes exclusively for Allah."

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

These violent verses abrogate the earlier verses. And here's one final (Hadith) quote.

Bukhari 52:260 "The Prophet said,'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

“Tell it as it is.”

Since: Jun 12


#6 Nov 16, 2012
waky95 wrote:
2:256 - There is no compulsion in religion.....
16:156 - Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.
4:19 - O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion.....
These verses predate mo's victory at Medina. After that he became unassailable, could do as he pleased without having to consider others, and let the real mo out.

“Mad as Hell”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#7 Nov 16, 2012

"Qur’an 2:256:“There is No Compulsion in Religion…”

The Koran-verse above is from the early days when Mohammed started out and was still weak. Later on the tune changed.

When he came to power, he said:

3:85, If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him;

8:39, And fight them on until there is no more fitnah (dissention) and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere."

This is but a small example among hundreds where his tune has changed over time.

And then we have the Hadith collections which put another spin on the words of the koran.

Since: Nov 12

Bradford, UK

#8 Nov 17, 2012
There are no verses in the Quran that are abrogated. The best way to explain the Quran is with the Quran it self. What is mentioned is usually explained in another verse or a Hadith.

9:29 - These verses stress the necessity of fighting against the People of the Scripture, but under what conditions? The fact is that the Islamic State is not permitted to attack non-Muslims who are not hostile to Islam, who do not oppress Muslims, or try to convert Muslims by force from their religion, or expel them from their lands, or wage war against them, or prepare for attacks against them. If any of these offenses occurs, however, Muslims are permitted to defend themselves and protect their religion. Muslims are not permitted to attack non-Muslims who signed peace pacts with them, or non-Muslims who live under the protection of the Islamic State.(Abualrub, Holy Wars, Crusades, Jihad). Fatwa refers to the historical context in which the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought against other nations. The Prophet Muhammad did not initiate aggression against anyone, rather he and his followers were under attack from all who sought to crush the new Islamic state. The first hostilities between the Muslims and the Roman empire began when the Prophet Muhammad’s messenger to the Ghassan tribe (a governate of the Roman empire), Al-Harith bin Umayr Al-Azdi, was tied up and beheaded (Al-Mubarakpuri, Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum, p. 383). The killing of a diplomat was an open act of war, and the Prophet Muhammad sent an armed force to confront the tribe, but the Roman empire brought in reinforcements and the resulting conflict, known as the Battle of Mut’ah, was a defeat for the Muslims. Only after this did subsequent battles between the Muslims and the Roman Empire occur, and the Muslims emerged victorious. Likewise, as mentioned in the above fatwa, hostilities between the Muslims and the Persians only began after the Persian emperor Chosroe ordered his governor in Yemen Badham, to kill the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, although his efforts were thwarted when the latter accepted Islam. Other non-Muslim groups, such as those in Madinah, also initiated hostilities against the Muslims despite peace treaties as Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq writes:

As for fighting the Jews (People of the Scripture), they had conducted a peace pact with the Messenger after he migrated to Madinah. Soon afterwards, they betrayed the peace pact and joined forces with the pagans and the hypocrites against Muslims. They also fought against Muslims during the Battle of A`hzab , then Allah revealed…[and he cites verse 9:29](Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqhu as-Sunnah, Vol. 3, p. 80)

22:39 - Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

2:190 - And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.[This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihad, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

60:8 - Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

4:75 - And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."

Since: Nov 12

Bradford, UK

#9 Nov 17, 2012
23:1 - "Successful indeed are the believers". means, they have attained victory and are blessed, for they have succeeded. These are the believers who have the following characteristics: these prayers, vain talk or falsehood, give zakat,

23:5 And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts).

23:6 - Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;

The verse maintains and provides the foundations of the idea that a person is “free from blame” for having physical intimacy with his slave-women. But this only denotes permissibility and we maintain that it is neither the purpose of their “master-slave” relation nor is this recommended. Classical scholar Abu Walid al-Baji al-Maliki (d. 474 A.H./1081 A.C.) writes;

"The very purpose of marriage is (to make) intercourse (permissible) but the purpose of possession (of slave-women) is not intercourse.”(Al-Muntaqa Sharah al-Muwatta, Darul Kitab al-Islami, Cairo, 1332 A.H. vol.4 p.82)

Arrange the marriage of the spouseless among you, and the capable from among your bondmen and bondwomen.”(Qur’an 24:32)

“So it is incumbent upon the masters of the slaves and the slave girls that those among them who have the ability to get married, their marriage should be arranged. It is purported to mean here that if they show their need and desire to get married, then according to some jurists it is binding on the owners to marry them off. But the majority of jurists have ruled that in such a situation it is incumbent upon the masters not to place any hindrance in their marriage and allow them to get married, because the marriage of slaves and slave girls cannot be performed without the permission of their owners … The gist of this all is that the owners are instructed here not to make any delay in granting permission of marriage to their subjects …”(Mufti Muhammad Shafi’, Ma’ariful Qur’an- Translation by Muhammad Ishrat Husain, Karachi, n.d. vol.6 pp.423-424)

The reason for permissibility of physical intimacy with slave-woman is twofold;

Chastity on the part of the slave-woman that she may not turn to lewdness.(Or we can say she may not be forced into that for not finding a legitimate way for what is instinctive) or Chastity of her owner/master.

Since: Nov 12

Bradford, UK

#12 Nov 17, 2012
How Islam looks at apostasy?

With points 1) and 2) in consideration we can truly appreciate Islam’s view of apostasy and then understand its legislation about it.

An act of rebellion

Islam sees apostasy as an act of rebellion. Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah put it aptly in the following words;

“The basis of Muslim polity being religious and not ethnological or linguistic, it is not difficult to appreciate the reason for penalising this act of apostasy. For it constitutes a politico-religious rebellion.”(Muslim Conduct of State, Sh. Muhammad Ashraf publishers, Lahore 1945 p.161)

And treason is a crime that has been traditionally subject to capital punishment in almost all setups- at least until recently. In many countries it is still in practice. And the idea of punishment for this remains universal anyway.

Naturally, people will find it difficult to swallow because any idea of treason or high treason is attached only to one’s country or nation in the sense the terms are understood in our day. With the notion of the church and the state being separate fixed into the minds religion is considered totally a private affair, therefore, any notion of treason vis-à-vis religion is condemned as fanaticism. Dr. Muhammad Iqbal points out that if collective love and jealousy for one’s religion is fanaticism then we may accept the charge for all nations have the same feelings though anchored on different concepts. He then concludes,“Fanaticism is patriotism for religion; patriotism, fanaticism for country.”(Stray Reflections, No. 18 p.33)

Thus, it is only about the different conception of nationhood and, therefore, of treason and rebellion. Rest is same!

An act of public disorder

Quite similar to the idea of rebellion but with a slight different sense is the view of apostasy as an act of public disorder. For an Islamic state ‘social order’ includes people generally following and practicing Islam and with no force trying to impede the state’s efforts at making people follow Islam plainly. And considering the actual non-Muslim citizens i.e. the protected minorities, we may say that no force anyway resisting state’s efforts to win them for Islam using all possible non-coercive means is also part of the ‘order’.

As apostasy leads people to doubt Islam or derails their course towards understanding Islam, it is considered an act of public disorder, going against the very purpose and mission of the state. Faith alone is the focus, identity and spirit of a Muslim society or state. Hence an open act of apostasy is a crime because it poses a threat to community character and tries to undermine what the society and state aim to achieve. In a way it is an attack on the faith of people due to its potential of making people doubt or stay away from Islam.

Actually the trick of “believing and then leaving” Islam is an old gimmick the enemies of Islam have been playing. The Qur’an says;

3:72 -“And a section of the people of Book says,‘believe at day-break in what has been sent down to those who believe and deny at the day-end; perhaps they may turn away.’”

Since: Nov 12

Bradford, UK

#13 Nov 17, 2012
And to this day the same trick is being played. The whole scheme of fake ex-Muslims rests on the same idea. In the wake of this, an Islamic state has the right to execute any such offenders within the area of its jurisdiction.

The fundamental duty of the Islamic state is to forbid what is wrong and to take every possible step to put away anything that can cause harm to the religious conviction of the believers. The same applies to all that can make non-Muslims, whom the state using every non-coercive means tries to win for Islam, harbor (more) doubts about Islam.

Deeply studying the statutes of Islamic law (ahkam al-shar’ia) and reflecting on their underlying causes (‘ilal) the scholars of Islam have extracted the purposes of the law (maqasid al-shar’ia) which include protection of people’s faith (hifz al-din). In fact according to many scholars including al-Ghazali (d. 505 A.H.) and al-Aamidi (d. 631 A.H.) it is the first of all in order (See, Al-Mustasfa 1/173 and al-Ahkam fi Usool al-Ahkam 3/274)

Further al-Zarkashi (d. 794 A.H.) in most unambiguous words states that killing the apostate is in accordance with this principle. See Al-Bahr al-Muhit fi Usool al-Fiqh 7/266.

With the above detail known we can then truly appreciate the fact that Abu’l-Hassan al-Mawardi (d. 450 A.H.) in his magnus opus, Al-Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah (Laws of Islamic Governance) discusses the issue of apostasy in the chapter titled,“Al- Wilaya ‘ala al-Masahih- Fil Wilayah ‘alaa al-Hurub” i.e. Commands of Wars Waged for Public Good,(See, Al-Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah- Laws of Islamic Governance, Translated by Asadullah Yate, Ta-Ha publishers, London 1996 p.83)

This is enough to prove that punishment of apostasy is in accordance with what Islam understands as good for the people and by the way of forbidding evil to maintain public order.
Actual Aussie

Brisbane, Australia

#14 Nov 17, 2012
waky95 wrote:
There are no verses in the Quran that are abrogated.
Either they're abrogated, or the Quran contradicts itself and therefore isn't trustworthy. Either way, your unwillingness to accept the violence and evil contained within the Quran, shows that you don't truly believe everything which is written in the book. Why don't you save your own soul from this anguish and admit to your heart your own disbelief. You won't be truly free until you do.

“Tell it as it is.”

Since: Jun 12


#15 Nov 17, 2012
Re posts 8 to 13.
Are you trying to be a lawyer, burying the truth under bucket loads of irrelevancies?
Go back to basics.
Would an omniscient, omnipotent god concoct something so confusing and contradictory as the koran?
would the same god allow his followers to split into 70 plus sects, each considering the others apostates to be converted or killed?

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#16 Nov 17, 2012
Old Pom wrote:
Would an omniscient, omnipotent god concoct something so confusing and contradictory as the koran?...
And would such a god need to have his qu'ran abrogated?

“Mad as Hell”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#17 Nov 17, 2012
The hadiths are created by apologists to defend the indefensible.
In the West we call it "Spin".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_ (public_relations)

“Google Operation Northwoods”

Since: Aug 10

** 9-11 was an inside job **

#18 Nov 17, 2012

San Antonio, TX

#19 Nov 17, 2012

“Mad as Hell”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20 Nov 17, 2012
Timesten wrote:
What's your point. The stat's mainly relate to kids abducted by parents who have split up.
george whyte

Ilford, UK

#21 Nov 18, 2012
paki land again

“Mad as Hell”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#22 Nov 18, 2012
Will this poor girl be forcibly cut with a razor blade to have her clitoris removed and other parts of her genitals mutilated in the process known in the West as Female Genital Mutilation
or as I call it "The Islamification of Females".
If it were not for Islam this practice would not exist in the Modern world.

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