Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 31996 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

Jess

Macon, GA

#24384 Apr 26, 2013
Mommy2Bof3 wrote:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
We believe that the first principals and ordinances of the gospel are first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentence; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, laying.on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the gospel and administer the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely apostles, prophets pastures, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
Acts 3:21 says that, "Jesue must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything." If you believe the Bible how can you believe John Smith saw Jesus in Utah. The Bible plainly says Jesus will remain in heaven until everything is restored. In other words John Smith is a lier.

Since: Sep 12

Ozark, MO

#24385 Apr 26, 2013
Jess wrote:
<quoted text>Acts 3:21 says that, "Jesue must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything." If you believe the Bible how can you believe John Smith saw Jesus in Utah. The Bible plainly says Jesus will remain in heaven until everything is restored. In other words John Smith is a lier.
Wow.

Since: Sep 12

Ozark, MO

#24386 Apr 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>Good for you...See what he grifter says about his scam.
Just read about Adam and Eve in "Gospel Principles" and there is NO mention of either race or color. None. Now on to "Mormon Doctrine!"

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#24387 Apr 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Seriously?....Hahaha
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch...
Your dumb!

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#24388 Apr 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Just read about Adam and Eve in "Gospel Principles" and there is NO mention of either race or color. None. Now on to "Mormon Doctrine!"
So, all that curse business is just lies?

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#24389 Apr 26, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Your dumb!
Sweetie, you are priceless!

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#24390 Apr 26, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Your dumb!
I hope this helps, dear.

http://lmgtfy.com/...

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#24391 Apr 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Sweetie, you are priceless!
You're still dumb!

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#24392 Apr 26, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope this helps, dear.
http://lmgtfy.com/...
Dumb, da-Dumb, duuh-DUMb!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24393 Apr 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
I prefer Straight outta Compton by NWA, or Rock Superstar by Cypress Hill.
I doubt the GA's would approve of "F**k the Police." My favorite P.E. song:

What You Need Is Jesus
Artist: Public Enemy
Album: He Got Game

[Charles Barkley] Halleluja Jesus Halleluja!

Now here's the pop turnaround jumper
Hits the rim bounce away the new slave trade.
Manchild six feet five but juvenile.
Thin line between getting bucks and gettin wild.
Brooklyn style hundred thousand miles.
Parque tiles leavin ankles broke in a pile.
Son got a ticket to fly he can make it if he try
To the sky like a Coney Island ride.
Gettin pages, from his super agent,
Community raises at the clout or the cages.
No doubt, center stages, mad phases,
>From behind crazies flippin through the faces.
Paper chases, love that many places.
Pros and cons, flics between the races.
He hold the rock, call for sweat shops.
Guard the set shop replaced by sex shops.
The highest bidder, no room for the quitter.
Gave seven tickets, under counterfittas.
Three cities a week, droppin needles.
Like the black Beatles take heed, what you need is...

[Chorus:]
Jesus (The incredible)
Jesus (And in your existence, huh)
Jesus(The incredible, yea)
Jesus(Check it out)

Crack my picture, never swith up.
Smack the back ups, pack them pick ups.
Resurrection of the two man vocal section.
The spirit in your dark ass direction.
Duckin them spray ups on my way that i thought be lay ups.
Won the battle wars, a thousand one push ups.
Here marks the return of them rules about Ruff Ryders.
Risin, chargin hard from the point guard.
Watch what you prey for, but know the team that you play for.
Need I say more?
Uh, scared of the resurrection,
Sacrafice yours, them maybe the revolution is basketball.
Changes, generanges. Which means rearrange shit,
Erase shit, stuck on Playstations.
Then the new plantations, I said a millions heads.
Waitin for another nation.
To make your world be free.
No shoppin sprees, there ain't no stoppin me.
Here's the fee, not the weed.
Got to see, God speed. What you need is...

[Chorus 2x]

Sticky D gives you fits, on them turnaround hippocrytes.
Comin and goin like flics.
Hit em net scripts, like a butcher.
Gettin all the chips musta been a road trip against the Knicks.
On T.V. showcasin kicks.
Must be the fan cause his video gettin all the chicks.
Walk up on a replay on Monday.
Sportscenter highlights, last second steal kept em real.
What you need is...
Jesus
Jesus (What you need is)
Jesus
Jesus (What you need is)
Jesus
Jesus (What you need is)
Jesus
Jesus

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#24394 Apr 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Just curious... how does it make it a "BIG LIE"? Which doctrine are you referring to?
nomo made the remark that "If adam and eve were black, it makes your cults doctrine a BIG LIE, doesn't it?" meaning the Mormon religion believes in a Caucasian Adam and Eve because their Caucasians. So if Adam and Eve were really black, then it means all said of black skin being a curse is wrong which would make all statements wrong said by LDS church leaders concerning it.
I disagreed because pretending what she said was correct, it still wouldn't make the LDS religion any less correct than Peter lying made his religion a lie or Judas's betrayal made that religion a lie or most all the apostles doubting Jesus had been resurrected made the religion a lie.
nomo likes to think in extremes. She has troubles thinking in non-extremes.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24395 Apr 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Just read about Adam and Eve in "Gospel Principles" and there is NO mention of either race or color. None. Now on to "Mormon Doctrine!"
There is in the BoM and the PoGP. Still LDS scripture.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#24396 Apr 26, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
nomo made the remark that "If adam and eve were black, it makes your cults doctrine a BIG LIE, doesn't it?" meaning the Mormon religion believes in a Caucasian Adam and Eve because their Caucasians. So if Adam and Eve were really black, then it means all said of black skin being a curse is wrong which would make all statements wrong said by LDS church leaders concerning it.
I disagreed because pretending what she said was correct, it still wouldn't make the LDS religion any less correct than Peter lying made his religion a lie or Judas's betrayal made that religion a lie or most all the apostles doubting Jesus had been resurrected made the religion a lie.
nomo likes to think in extremes. She has troubles thinking in non-extremes.
Oh? Is that what all that racist babble meant? Cool

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24397 Apr 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't ever recall there being any doctrine, or doctrinal truth, stating that Adam and Eve were a particular color, or race of people. When I get off work, I'll go check out "Mormon Doctrine" and see what my hero Bruce has to say.:-)
Compare it to the first edition while you're at it. Some statements that had to be changed due to public outrage:

BACKGROUND

Faithful Mormons often cite Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” as an authoritative volume on official LDS doctrine.

However, its initial publication in 1959 was not only unauthorized, but met by President David O. McKay and other General Authorities with both surprise and objection.

In the wake of its appearance, McKay directed that a review be made of the book’s contents and a report submitted to him, along with recommendations on how to deal with it problematic publication.

An analysis of the book was subsequently conducted by Apostles Marion G. Romney and Mark E. Petersen, wherein they noted the book’s numerous doctrinal errors, objectionable language, discourteous tone and questionable claims.

Recommendation was made that McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” not be republished, that it be repudiated, and that in the future no book be published by any of the Brethren without first obtaining First Presidency approval.

McKay agreed with the suggestion that “Mormon Doctrine” not be republished and directed that restrictions be placed on future book publishing by General Authorities.

The First Presidency also issued a private, face-to-face reprimand to McConkie, whereupon McConkie promised to behave.

Below are documents which include McKay’s officially-directed report on the book’s contents (authored by Apostle Romney), as well as excerpts from McKay’s contemporary office journal on the controversy surrounding the book and the resolution of the problems its publication had created.

(These documents were originally copied with permission of the LDS Church Archivist. Reproductions of those copies are in my possession. The original Romney letter and its attached copy of the “Mormon Doctrine” manuscript are in the First Presidency’s Office).

Also noted below are letters authorized by McKay which were sent out to inquiring Church members after publication of McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine," declaring that it and other books published by individual General Authorities did not represent the official position of the LDS Church.

(Copies of these letters are also in my possession).

More to follow(you will find this interesting Crazy)...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24398 Apr 26, 2013
REPORT FROM MARION G. ROMNEY TO DAVID O. McKAY

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
The Council of the Twelve
47 E. South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah

January 28, 1959

President David O. McKay
Building

Dear President McKay:

This is my report on MORMON DOCTRINE, by Bruce R. McConkie, which on January 5, you asked me to read.

The book is a 776 page work which, in the words of the author, purports to be,‘the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom ..... the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel—the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.’

‘For the work itself,’ the author assumes the ‘sole and full responsibility.’(Exhibit I)(The exhibits cited in this report consist of printed pages from the book. The statements in point are underscored in red.)

Preparation of the volume has entailed much study and research. Its favorable reception evidences a felt need for such a treatise.

The author is an able and thorough student of the gospel. In many respects he has produced a remarkable book. Properly used, it quickly introduces the student to the authorities on most any gospel subject.

As to the book itself, notwithstanding its many commendable and valuable features and the author’s assumption of ‘sole and full responsibility’ for it, its nature and scope and the authoritative tone of the style in which it is written pose the question as to the propriety of the author’s attempting such a project without assignment and supervision from him whose right and responsibility it is to speak for the Church on ‘Mormon Doctrine.’ Had the work been authoritatively supervised, some of the following matters might have been omitted and the treatment of others modified.

A. Reference to churches and other groups who do not accept ‘Mormon Doctrine’.

1.‘Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,’ who sometimes refer to themselves as ‘Josephites’.(Exhibit II-1, pages 50, 141, 362)

2.‘Christian Churches’ generally.(Exhibit II-2, pages 139, 455)

3.‘Catholic Church’.(Exhibit II-3, pages 13, 66, 69, 129, 130, 216, 241, 314-15, 342, 346, 350, 422, 499, 511, 697)

4. Communists and Catholics.(Exhibit II-4, pages 26-7, 131)

5. Evolution and Evolutionists.(Exhibit II-5, pages 37, 77, 136, 180, 228, 238, 659)

More to follow...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24399 Apr 26, 2013
B. Declaration as to ‘Mormon Doctrine’ on controversial issues.

1.‘Pre-Adamites’.(Exhibit III-1, pages 17, 262)

2. Status of Animals and Plants in the Garden of Eden.(Exhibit III-2, pages 36, 234-35)

3. Meaning of the various accounts of Creation.(exhibit III_3, pages 157-8, 167-8)

4. Dispensation of Abraham.(Exhibit III-4, page 203)

5. Moses a translated being.(Exhibit III_5, pages 206, 445, 466, 727-8)

6. Origin of Individuality.(Exhibit III-6, page 404)

7. Defiling the priesthood.(Exhibit III-7, page 437)

8. Manner in which Jesus was Begotten.(Exhibit III-8, page 494)

9. Written sermons.(Exhibit III-9, pages 634-5, 716)

10. Resurrection of stillborn children.(Exhibit III-10, page 694)

C. Miscellaneous Interpretations (Exhibit IV)

Frequency of Administrations, page 22

Baptism in the ‘molten sea,’ page 98

II Peter 1:19, page 102

Paul married, page 112

Status of those ‘with Christ in His Resurrection', page 128

Consecration of oil, page 147

Councils and schools among the Gods, page 151

Limitations on Deity, page 154

Sunday not a proper day for family reunions, page 254

Geological changes at time of the deluge, page 268

The Holy Ghost a spirit man, page 329

Facing east in temples when giving the Hosanna Shout, page 337

Details on family prayer and asking the blessing on food, page 526

Women to be gods, page 551

Interpretations of the Doctrine and Covenants 93:1, page 581

Interpretation of “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning,” page 606

Status of little children in the celestial kingdom, page 607

Resumption of schools of the prophets, page 613

Time of beginning of seasons, page 616

Interpretation of III Nephi 12:20, page 618

D. Repeated use of the word ‘apostate’ and related terms in a way which to many seems discourteous and to others gives offense.(Exhibit V, pages 123, 125, 160, 169, 212, 223, 383, 538, 546, 548, 596)

Faithfully and Respectfully submitted,

[Signed]

Marion G. Romney

Enc.

P. S.

As per my letter to you of January 9, I have promised to contact Marvin Wallin, manager of Bookcraft Company, by the 9th of February about the 4,000 volume edition of MORMON DOCTRINE which he is holding.

I shall therefore seek to contact you about the matter near the end of next week.

Sincerely,

M. G. R.”

More to follow...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24400 Apr 26, 2013
OFFICE JOURNAL OF PRESIDENT DAVID O. McKAY

“THURSDAY, January 7, 1960

10:15 to 12:45 p.m. Re: The book—‘Mormon Doctrine’

The First Presidency met with Elders Mark E. Petersen and Marion G. Romney. They submitted their report upon their examination of the book ‘Mormon Doctrine’ by Elder Bruce McConkie.

These brethren reported that the manuscript of the book ‘Mormon Doctrine’ has not been read by the reading committee; that President Joseph Fielding Smith did not know anything about it until it was published. Elder Petersen stated that the extent of the corrections which he had marked in his copy of the book (1067) affected most of the 776 pages of the book. He also said that he thought the brethren should be under the rule that no book should be published without a specific approval of the First Presidency.

I stated that the decision of the First Presidency and the Committee should be announced to the Twelve.

It was agreed that the necessary corrections are so numerous that to republish a corrected edition of the book would be such an extensive repudiation of the original as to destroy the credit of the author; that the republication of the book should be forbidden and that the book should be repudiated in such a way as to save the career of the author as one of the General Authorities of the Church. It was also agreed that this decision should be announced to the Council of the Twelve before I talk to the author.

Elder Petersen will prepare an editorial for publication in the Improvement Era, stating the principle of approval of books on Church doctrine.”

“FRIDAY, January 8, 1960

11:55 to 12:15 p.m.

The First Presidency held a meeting. We decided that Bruce R. McConkie’s book,‘Mormon Doctrine’ recently published by Bookcraft Company, must not be re-published, as it is full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has receive such wide circulation. It is reported to us that Brother McConkie has made corrections to his book, and is now preparing another edition. We decided this morning that we do not want him to publish another edition.

We decided, also, to have no more books published by General Authorities without their first having the consent of the First Presidency.(see January 7, 1960)”

“WEDNESDAY, January 27, 1960

3:00 P. M. Conference with Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith re: Bruce R. McConkie’s book,‘Mormon Doctrine’

At the request of the First Presidency, I called President Joseph Fielding Smith and told him that we are a unit in disapproving of Brother Bruce R. McConkie’s book,‘Mormon Doctrine,’ as an authoritative exposition of the principles of the gospel.

I then said:‘Now, Brother Smith, he is a General Authority, and we do not want to give him a public rebuke that would be embarrassing to him and lessen his influence with the members of the Church, so we shall speak to the Twelve at our meeting in the Temple tomorrow, and tell them that Brother McConkie’s book is not approved as an authoritative book and that it should not be republished, even if the errors (some 1,067) are corrected.’

“Brother Smith agreed with this suggestion to report to the Twelve, and said,‘That is the best thing to do.’

I then said that Brother McConkie is advocating by letter some of the [one line of words partially cut off on bottom of the photocopied page of journal]... to letters he receives. Brother Smith said,‘I will speak to him about that.’ I then mentioned that he is also speaking on these subjects, and Brother Smith said,‘I will speak to him about that also.’

I also said that the First Presidency had decided that General Authorities of the Church should not publish books without submitting them to some member of the General Authorities, and President Smith agreed to this as being wise.”

More to follow...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24401 Apr 26, 2013
“THURSDAY, January 28, 1960

8:30 to 9 a.m. Bruce R. McConkie’s Book

Was engaged in the meeting of the First Presidency. I reported to my counselors that I had talked with President Joseph Fielding Smith about the decision that the book ‘Mormon Doctrine’ should not be republished and about handling the matter to avoid undermining Brother McConkie’s influence. President Smith agreed that the book should not be republished, and said he would talk with Brother McConkie. It was decided that the First Presidency should inform Brother McConkie before he learns of our decision from some other source, so Brother McConkie was asked to come into our meeting this morning.

When he arrived I informed him of the desire of the First Presidency with reference to h is book not being republished, to which he agreed. The recommendation was also made that he answer inquiries on the subject with care. Brother McConkie said,‘I am amenable to whatever you Brethren want. I will do exactly what you want. I will be as discreet and as wise as I can.’ In answering letters he said that he would express no views contrary to views which the First Presidency has expressed. He said that he would conform in every respect....

10 a.m. to 2:45 p.m.

Was engaged in the meeting of the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve in the Salt Lake Temple.

At Council meeting I reported to the Brethren our decision regarding Elder Bruce R. McConkie’s book ‘Mormon Doctrine,’ stating that it had caused considerable comment throughout the Church, and that it has been a source of concern to the Brethren ever since it was published. I said that this book had not been presented to anyone for consideration or approval until after its publication. I further said that the First Presidency have [sic] give it very careful consideration, as undoubtedly have some of the Brethren of the Twelve also, and that the First Presidency now recommend that the book be not republished; that it be not republished even in a corrected form, even though Brother McConkie mentions in the book that he takes all responsibility for it; and that it not be recognized as an authoritative book.

I said further that the question has arisen as to whether a public correction should be made and a addendum given emphasizing the [bottom line of photocopied page of journal cut off]... it is felt that that would not be wise because Brother McConkie is one of the General Authorities, and it might lessen his influence. The First Presidency recommend that the situation be left as it is, and whenever a question about it arises, we can answer that it is unauthoritative; that it was issued by Brother McConkie on his own responsibility, and he must answer for it.

I reported that the First Presidency had talked to Brother McConkie this morning, and he said he will do whatever the Brethren want him to do. He will not attempt to republish the book nor to say anything by letter, and if he answers letters or inquiries that he will answer them in accordance with the suggestions made by the Brethren, and not advocate those things concerning which question had been raised as contained in the book.

The Brethren unanimously approved of this.

I then said that the First Presidency further recommend that when any member of the General Authorities desires to write a book, that the Brethren of the Twelve or the First Presidency be consulted regarding it. While the author need not get the approval of these Brethren, they should know before it is published that a member of the General Authorities wants to publish a book. I said it may seem all right for the writer of the book to say,‘I only am responsible for it,’ but I said ‘you cannot separate your position from your individuality, and we should like the authors to present their books to the Twelve or a Committee appointed.’ I asked the Brethren of the Twelve to convey this information to the other General Authorities. On motion, this became the consensus of the Council

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24403 Apr 26, 2013
LETTERS FROM McKAY TO CHURCH MEMBERS REGARDING McCONKIE’S “MORMON DOCTRINE” AND OTHER BOOKS PUBLISHED BY INDIVIDUAL GENERAL AUTHORITIES

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
47 E. South Temple Street
Salt Lake City, Utah
David O. McKay, President

February 3, 1959

Dr. A. Kent Christensen
Department of Anatomy
Cornell University Medical College
1300 York Avenue
New York 21, New York

Dear Brother Christensen:

I have your letter of January 23, 1959 in which you ask for a statement of the Church’s position on the subject of evolution.

The Church has issued not official statement on the subject of the theory of evolution.

Neither ‘Man, His Origin and Destiny’ by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, nor ‘Mormon Doctrine’ by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, is an official publication of the Church....

Sincerely yours,

[signed]

David O. McKay
(President)”

___

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
47 East South Temple Street
Salt Lake City, Utah
David O. McKay
September 24, 1964

Dr. Lorenzo Lisonbee, Science Consultant
Phoenix Union High School System
District Adminstration Annex
2042 West Thomas Road
Phoenix, Arizona (85015)

Dear Dr. Lisonbee :

President McKay, who is recuperating at home under doctors’s orders from his recent illness, has asked me to acknowledge for him your letter of September 8, 1964.

I have been directed to say that individual General Authorities of the Church publish books on their own responsibility, the publishing of which is not regarded as Church approval of the books. The Church approves only books which have been authorized for publication by the General Authorities of the Church, such as the Standard Works of the Church and authorized textbooks adopted by official action of the Church for the Priesthood and the organizations fo the Church.

Sincerely yours,

[signed]

Clare Middlemiss
Secretary to:
President David O. McKay”

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon193.htm

The truth is, "Mormon Doctrine" was a treasure for critics of Mormonism. Now I understand it isn't to be published any longer.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#24405 Apr 26, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
nomo made the remark that "If adam and eve were black, it makes your cults doctrine a BIG LIE, doesn't it?" meaning the Mormon religion believes in a Caucasian Adam and Eve because their Caucasians. So if Adam and Eve were really black, then it means all said of black skin being a curse is wrong which would make all statements wrong said by LDS church leaders concerning it.
I disagreed because pretending what she said was correct, it still wouldn't make the LDS religion any less correct than Peter lying made his religion a lie or Judas's betrayal made that religion a lie or most all the apostles doubting Jesus had been resurrected made the religion a lie.
nomo likes to think in extremes. She has troubles thinking in non-extremes.
Of course you disagree, you are always the faithful spokesman for Mormonism. But Peter's lying wasn't a gospel principle, neither was doubts about the resurrection. The teaching that black skin was a curse from God was one of the founding principles of Mormonism, it is still in their scriptures. Today, you still don't find any rejection of that teaching. NoMo was just telling a basic fact about Mormonism.

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