MUQ, nothing makes me more happier than when you swear by logic and reason. And then again, I'm always a votary of civilized discussions. It's always a creative challenge for me as to how to write a hard hitting post without sounding rude. So you can rest assured that you will not catch me on the wrong foot on that front.<quoted text>
You wanted to have a logical and reasonable discussion with me.
Is your post the way to do reasonable and logical discussion? You pose a question, answer it yourself and then decide on the outcome. I do not think that it come sunder a logical or even civil discussion.
You should ask a question, and then wait for reply and then have your query on reply, till the matter is settled, or we have had our say on that
You have to go slow and go step by step, no need to hurry.
You have just "glossed over" the most important issue.
That is the issue of Creator!!
When we see this whole and working Universe before me, how come it came out of no where?
So let us first discuss this point first. Unless we solve this point, what is the meaning to discuss Islam and it being the only religion.
So let us concentrate our focus on the issue of Creator of this Universe.
How can this Universe create itself, or can it come by chance?
Let me hear your argument about it.
And unless we decide on this issue, let us raise no other point.
I was making a general statement when I said that there can be contrary opinions about the issue of creator. Right now I don't want to resort to polemics by bringing in my own personal ideas about creator. All I want to say is that our approach to questions regarding universe and its origin, the teleological argument for the existence of God originate and operate within a particular paradigm. A paradigm is like a working model which satisfactorily explains a certain phenomena from the start to the end.
But just because a working model is a satisfactory explanation of a certain phenomena, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the absolute representation of truth. A working model can become dysfunctional if it cannot harmonize any new parameters or variables brought into the system.
Creation and creator model, where the two are separate, also operates within a certain paradigm. There is another paradigm about original substance and the forms of that original substance, for example clay and the forms made out of clay. If you a ask a quantum physicist as to who created this world he would give the answer as quantum field. Similarly a taoist would say that this whole universe is a dream dreamt by God. So it all depends on which paradigm your mind operates in. Each of these paradigms can give you a successful working model to explain our universe.