Asking the right questions of religious believers

Feb 26, 2011 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Mano Singham's Web Journal

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Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#21
Mar 6, 2011
 
Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>You referred to reality as basis. I would you to discuss it please.
REALITY - Observable world

1.The quality or state of being actual or true.
2.One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: "the weight of history and political realities" (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3.The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4.That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-- Philip K. Dick

Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought.-- Milan Kundera

My gods are REASON, LOGIC, COMMON SENSE, TRUTH and FACT.
They do more for humanity than any imaginary sky fairy ever will.

FANTASY - Religion

1.The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See synonyms at imagination.
2.Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
3.A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
4.
a.Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
b.An example of such fiction.
5.An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.
6.An unrealistic or improbable supposition.
7.Music. See fantasia 8.A coin issued especially by a questionable authority and not intended for use as currency.
9.Obsolete. A hallucination.

Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains.
Carnarvon

Bellville, South Africa

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#22
Mar 6, 2011
 
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
The morality accepted among modern people, among 21st century people includes ending slavery, equality for women, not killing witches … these are all things which are entirely recent.
They are things that have developed over historical time through a consensus of reasoning, sober discussion, argument, legal theory, political and moral philosophy.
They do not come from religion. The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include stoning people for adultery, death to witches, punishment for breaking the Sabbath…these are all things which are religiously-based absolute moralities.
To the extent that you can find the good bits in religious scriptures, you have to cherry pick. You search your way through the Bible (or Koran) and you find the occasional verse that is an acceptable profession of morality and you say ‘look at that, that’s religion.’ And you leave out all the horrible bits and you say ‘oh we don’t believe that anymore, we’ve grown out of that.’ Well of course we’ve grown out of it. We’ve grown out of it because of secular moral philosophy and rational discussion.
I am actually asking for the principles behind it. Why is it wrong? What is the basis of it?
Carnarvon

South Africa

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#23
Mar 6, 2011
 
Epicurus wrote:
<quoted text>
REALITY - Observable world
1.The quality or state of being actual or true.
2.One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: "the weight of history and political realities" (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3.The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4.That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-- Philip K. Dick
Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought.-- Milan Kundera
My gods are REASON, LOGIC, COMMON SENSE, TRUTH and FACT.
They do more for humanity than any imaginary sky fairy ever will.
FANTASY - Religion
1.The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See synonyms at imagination.
2.Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
3.A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
4.
a.Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
b.An example of such fiction.
5.An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.
6.An unrealistic or improbable supposition.
7.Music. See fantasia 8.A coin issued especially by a questionable authority and not intended for use as currency.
9.Obsolete. A hallucination.
Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains.
Please explain how this affect morals.
Carnarvon

Bellville, South Africa

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#24
Mar 6, 2011
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
False.
Atheism is >>lack<< of any belief in supernatural woo.
Agnostic is the understanding that it is impossible to >>know<< for certain.
You can easily be an atheist-agnostic: you lack all belief in supernatural sh!t, and you think it is impossible to know anything about supernatural sh!t.
Or, you could be a believer-agnostic: you believe there is a god, and you recognize that belief is not knowing, because you think it is impossible to >know<. Yet you believe anyhow, because you >like< it that way.
Or, you could be a believer-dogmatic: you think you >know< all about god, and you believe in that god, because you have an ego the size of Jupiter.
Does that help?
You don't have a position? Yet you try to discredit religion- indicating my friend that you in fact do have a position but do not have the guts to admit that. Basically because you cannot prove it.
Your comment on believer-dogmatic and an ego thing is so funny! You really do not have a clue!
Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#25
Mar 6, 2011
 

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Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>Please explain how this affect morals.
Already did.
<Yawn>

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Collecting Cash for God!

"So what did God do? He GAVE the very thing He needed – His only begotten Son, the best gift heaven could give! What did God receive? Yes, we know – billions of sons and daughters! God lives by His own law – you GIVE if you expect to RECEIVE!"
– Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network espouses the "theology" of fleecing the sheep on behalf of a needy God.

Jerry Falwell: Hustler in Christ
"I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!" – Falwell ("America Can Be Saved!" 1979)

Pat Robertson: JEE-ZUSS Jihad
"There will never be peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top ... there is absolutely no way that government can operate successfully unless led by godly men and women operating under the laws of the God of Jacob." – Pat Robertson, The New World Order, 1992.

Robert Tilton: Faith in Money
1980s hotshot fraudster Robert Tilton ("Word of Faith Church") cut himself a fat slice of the Jesus pie with a "Success-N-Life" scam. Tilton solicited $1000 vows in exchange for the "presence of God" and raked in an estimated $80 million per year until a TV exposé in 1992 forced him into a lower profile.

But you can't keep a good Jesus con man down. Tilton's recent books include How To Pay Your Bills Supernaturally.

Jimmy Bakker: Fraud the Lord
Jimmy Bakker, erstwhile force behind the PTL ('Praise the Lord') TV Network, raked in so much cash that he even set up his own theme park ("Heritage USA").

In 1989 AOG minister Jimmy Bakker admitted to squandering $158 million of Church donations on luxury cars, private mansions and female liaisons.

After a prison term, he's still working the rackets. Here's the link if you want to donate to Jimmy's "television miracle".
Imafool@jommy.org

Jimmy Swaggart: Laugh or Cry?
Pentecostal "Assemblies of God" whoremonger Jimmy Swaggart, televangelist extraordinaire, raked in $150 million annually from gullible Jesus lovers during the 1980s.

A real rags-to-riches story. Swaggart had a poor start in life: depression-era rural Louisiana. But he had a natural charisma, and the growth of radio and TV presented the opportunity. Ordination as a minister by the AoG and conservative politics meant that Jimmy was on a roll. In the fiercely competitive televangelism racket Swaggart reached No. 1. But he had made enemies on the way up and they helped ensure that a pornography and hookers scandal brought him tumbling down again.

If you would like to help Jimmy get back on the gravy train click here.
Iamanidiot@swagger.com

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#26
Mar 6, 2011
 
Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>You don't have a position?
I do-- I've told my position many times on these threads, in fact.

But it's always ignored by people like you.

It has nothing to do with "guts".

It has >>everything<< to do with the FACT that you people do not actually READ other posts with comprehension.
Carnarvon wrote:
Yet you try to discredit religion-
Only because cultists like you would force by law, said religion onto everyone.
Carnarvon wrote:
indicating my friend that you in fact do have a position but do not have the guts to admit that.
False. I love it when you project your own cowardice onto people you have no clue about.

So typically christian of you.
Carnarvon wrote:
Basically because you cannot prove it.
"it"? What "it"?

I can easily prove the BuyBull god is immoral.

How about that?
Carnarvon wrote:
Your comment on believer-dogmatic and an ego thing is so funny! You really do not have a clue!
You >>do<< have a massive ego.

Your ego makes you think that the Ultimate Creator cares what sort of clothing you wear...!

That's some EGO, bub: yours.
gettagrip

United States

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#27
Mar 6, 2011
 

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Most of that sounds pretty good to me!
Epicurus wrote:
<quoted text>
Already did.
<Yawn>
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Collecting Cash for God!
"So what did God do? He GAVE the very thing He needed – His only begotten Son, the best gift heaven could give! What did God receive? Yes, we know – billions of sons and daughters! God lives by His own law – you GIVE if you expect to RECEIVE!"
– Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network espouses the "theology" of fleecing the sheep on behalf of a needy God.
Jerry Falwell: Hustler in Christ
"I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!" – Falwell ("America Can Be Saved!" 1979)
Pat Robertson: JEE-ZUSS Jihad
"There will never be peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top ... there is absolutely no way that government can operate successfully unless led by godly men and women operating under the laws of the God of Jacob." – Pat Robertson, The New World Order, 1992.
Robert Tilton: Faith in Money
1980s hotshot fraudster Robert Tilton ("Word of Faith Church") cut himself a fat slice of the Jesus pie with a "Success-N-Life" scam. Tilton solicited $1000 vows in exchange for the "presence of God" and raked in an estimated $80 million per year until a TV exposé in 1992 forced him into a lower profile.
But you can't keep a good Jesus con man down. Tilton's recent books include How To Pay Your Bills Supernaturally.
Jimmy Bakker: Fraud the Lord
Jimmy Bakker, erstwhile force behind the PTL ('Praise the Lord') TV Network, raked in so much cash that he even set up his own theme park ("Heritage USA").
In 1989 AOG minister Jimmy Bakker admitted to squandering $158 million of Church donations on luxury cars, private mansions and female liaisons.
After a prison term, he's still working the rackets. Here's the link if you want to donate to Jimmy's "television miracle".
Imafool@jommy.org
Jimmy Swaggart: Laugh or Cry?
Pentecostal "Assemblies of God" whoremonger Jimmy Swaggart, televangelist extraordinaire, raked in $150 million annually from gullible Jesus lovers during the 1980s.
A real rags-to-riches story. Swaggart had a poor start in life: depression-era rural Louisiana. But he had a natural charisma, and the growth of radio and TV presented the opportunity. Ordination as a minister by the AoG and conservative politics meant that Jimmy was on a roll. In the fiercely competitive televangelism racket Swaggart reached No. 1. But he had made enemies on the way up and they helped ensure that a pornography and hookers scandal brought him tumbling down again.
If you would like to help Jimmy get back on the gravy train click here.
Iamanidiot@swagger.com
gettagrip

United States

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#28
Mar 6, 2011
 

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Carnarvon-
I dont know if this is your first go round with Quantum, but if so, let me share a few things that may help you understand him.

1-Seems Bi-polar, extreme swings, cussing, name calling etc..

2-Makes teflon don look like superglue. You can never get him to pinpoint anything or stay with anything as he is usually all over the map and expert at diversion, spinning, etc.

3-Former Christian, knows the Word, uses that as excuse as to why He knows there is no God, when if you carefully observe his posts, you will see he comes off more like an angry at God, hurt person.

4-Projection master. Also probably crudest on here, but will always accuse the Christian of what He is doing.

5-Booksmart, so will try and use this when cornered to "word" his way out of a conversation or at least turn it around.

Just thought you may want to know.
Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>You don't have a position? Yet you try to discredit religion- indicating my friend that you in fact do have a position but do not have the guts to admit that. Basically because you cannot prove it.
Your comment on believer-dogmatic and an ego thing is so funny! You really do not have a clue!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#29
Mar 6, 2011
 
gettagrip wrote:
Carnarvon-
I dont know if this is your first go round with Quantum, but if so, let me share a few things that may help you understand him.
1-Seems Bi-polar, extreme swings, cussing, name calling etc..
2-Makes teflon don look like superglue. You can never get him to pinpoint anything or stay with anything as he is usually all over the map and expert at diversion, spinning, etc.
3-Former Christian, knows the Word, uses that as excuse as to why He knows there is no God, when if you carefully observe his posts, you will see he comes off more like an angry at God, hurt person.
4-Projection master. Also probably crudest on here, but will always accuse the Christian of what He is doing.
5-Booksmart, so will try and use this when cornered to "word" his way out of a conversation or at least turn it around.
Just thought you may want to know.
<quoted text>
Why THANK you Gripshimself!

I didn't know you cared so much.

You must have taken your lithium today.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

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#30
Mar 7, 2011
 
Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>I am actually asking for the principles behind it. Why is it wrong? What is the basis of it?
Since all modern morality has its foundation in secular reasoning, asking the "basis of it" is a bit like asking why do you breath.

There is not one moral code that can be shown to have originated in christianity, not one.
Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#31
Mar 7, 2011
 
gettagrip wrote:
Carnarvon-
I dont know if this is your first go round with Quantum, but if so, let me share a few things that may help you understand him.
1-Seems Bi-polar, extreme swings, cussing, name calling etc..
2-Makes teflon don look like superglue. You can never get him to pinpoint anything or stay with anything as he is usually all over the map and expert at diversion, spinning, etc.
3-Former Christian, knows the Word, uses that as excuse as to why He knows there is no God, when if you carefully observe his posts, you will see he comes off more like an angry at God, hurt person.
4-Projection master. Also probably crudest on here, but will always accuse the Christian of what He is doing.
5-Booksmart, so will try and use this when cornered to "word" his way out of a conversation or at least turn it around.
Just thought you may want to know.
<quoted text>
BEHAVIOURS YOU EXHIBIT

SPECIAL PLEADING
Example: It was ok that God killed scores of innocent people in Old Testament stories, because he works in mysterious ways that we aren’t meant to understand. Who are we to question God?
Example 2: Atheists don’t have the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the bible so the bible only appears to have contradictions and errors in it to them.

CONFUSION OF CORRELATION AND CAUSATION
Example: San Francisco which has a high percentage of gays also has a high percentage of earthquakes, therefore the earthquakes are God’s punishment of the gays.

EXCLUDED MIDDLE, OR FALSE DICHOTOMY
Considering only two extremes in a continuum of intermediate possibilities.
Example: Everyone is either good or evil.

MEANINGLESS QUESTION
Example: What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object? But if there is such a thing as an irresistible force there can’t be an immovable object and vice versa.

POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC
Latin for "It happened after, so it was caused by"
Example: Before women got the vote there were no nuclear weapons.

MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURE OF STATISTICS
Example: President Eisenhower expressed astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence.

OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION or COUNTING THE HITS AND IGNORING THE MISSES
Example: A politician says he should be reelected because of a, b, c, and d that were accomplished during his administration, but neglects to mention w, x, y, and z which were negative things that also occurred.

BEGGING THE QUESTION or ASSUMING THE ANSWER
Example: We must institute the death penalty to discourage violent crime. But has it been established that violent crime is in fact diminished by imposing the death penalty?

APPEAL TO IGNORANCE
It is invalid to claim that whatever has not been proven false must be true and vice-versa.
Example: God exists because it is impossible to prove he doesn’t.
Example 2: King Solomon’s temple never existed because no one has found it yet.

ARGUMENT FROM ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES
Arguments are not valid based on bad things that would otherwise happen.
Example: If God didn’t exist then I wouldn’t want to live.
Example 2: God must exist or society would be much more lawless and dangerous.
Example 3: He must be found guilty, otherwise it will encourage others to rape women.
Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#32
Mar 7, 2011
 
OOPS!
I meant that post for Lord Carnarvon!
Sorry Gripmeister

Since: Jun 10

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#33
Mar 7, 2011
 
Epicurus wrote:
<quoted text>
...Collecting Cash for God!
....If you would like to help Jimmy get back on the gravy train click here.
Iamanidiot@swagger.com
Great post. I enjoyed that :)
Carnarvon

Hillcrest, South Africa

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#34
Mar 8, 2011
 
Epicurus wrote:
<quoted text>
Already did.
<Yawn>
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Collecting Cash for God!
"So what did God do? He GAVE the very thing He needed – His only begotten Son, the best gift heaven could give! What did God receive? Yes, we know – billions of sons and daughters! God lives by His own law – you GIVE if you expect to RECEIVE!"
– Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network espouses the "theology" of fleecing the sheep on behalf of a needy God.
Jerry Falwell: Hustler in Christ
"I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!" – Falwell ("America Can Be Saved!" 1979)
Pat Robertson: JEE-ZUSS Jihad
"There will never be peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top ... there is absolutely no way that government can operate successfully unless led by godly men and women operating under the laws of the God of Jacob." – Pat Robertson, The New World Order, 1992.
Robert Tilton: Faith in Money
1980s hotshot fraudster Robert Tilton ("Word of Faith Church") cut himself a fat slice of the Jesus pie with a "Success-N-Life" scam. Tilton solicited $1000 vows in exchange for the "presence of God" and raked in an estimated $80 million per year until a TV exposé in 1992 forced him into a lower profile.
But you can't keep a good Jesus con man down. Tilton's recent books include How To Pay Your Bills Supernaturally.
Jimmy Bakker: Fraud the Lord
Jimmy Bakker, erstwhile force behind the PTL ('Praise the Lord') TV Network, raked in so much cash that he even set up his own theme park ("Heritage USA").
In 1989 AOG minister Jimmy Bakker admitted to squandering $158 million of Church donations on luxury cars, private mansions and female liaisons.
After a prison term, he's still working the rackets. Here's the link if you want to donate to Jimmy's "television miracle".
Imafool@jommy.org
Jimmy Swaggart: Laugh or Cry?
Pentecostal "Assemblies of God" whoremonger Jimmy Swaggart, televangelist extraordinaire, raked in $150 million annually from gullible Jesus lovers during the 1980s.
A real rags-to-riches story. Swaggart had a poor start in life: depression-era rural Louisiana. But he had a natural charisma, and the growth of radio and TV presented the opportunity. Ordination as a minister by the AoG and conservative politics meant that Jimmy was on a roll. In the fiercely competitive televangelism racket Swaggart reached No. 1. But he had made enemies on the way up and they helped ensure that a pornography and hookers scandal brought him tumbling down again.
If you would like to help Jimmy get back on the gravy train click here.
Iamanidiot@swagger.com
Your informed reply? Good one!
Carnarvon

Bellville, South Africa

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#35
Mar 8, 2011
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I do-- I've told my position many times on these threads, in fact.
But it's always ignored by people like you.
It has nothing to do with "guts".
It has >>everything<< to do with the FACT that you people do not actually READ other posts with comprehension.
<quoted text>
Only because cultists like you would force by law, said religion onto everyone.
<quoted text>
False. I love it when you project your own cowardice onto people you have no clue about.
So typically christian of you.
<quoted text>
"it"? What "it"?
I can easily prove the BuyBull god is immoral.
How about that?
<quoted text>
You >>do<< have a massive ego.
Your ego makes you think that the Ultimate Creator cares what sort of clothing you wear...!
That's some EGO, bub: yours.
And I have heard rumours that atheists have the answers? Proven wrong again. Please (that is if you can) provide me with some basis for your morality.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Sevierville, TN

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#36
Mar 8, 2011
 

Judged:

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Why on earth would anyone--even atheists--think that we have "the answers"? We have each, as individuals, come to a single common conclusion: "There are probably no deities." A few go further and replace "probably" with "definitely." Either way, that conclusions opens up new questions, only some of which any of us have answered.

If you read the posts in this forum to look for an overall pattern, you'll find that beyond a vague sense of community, we don't have as much in common as most theists assume. Some of us tend towards dignity and respectfulness, others towards confrontation and ridicule in our conversations with the many theists who post here. Some even ignore the theists altogether and converse only with other nonbelievers. Some are science junkies who lose no time arguing about the ToE and the BB theories. Others focus more on philosophical, psychological, or artistic topics.

I don't know where Carnarvon "hear:" these "rumors." Actually, I rather suspect he's just making that up.

Nice little troll. Have a cookie!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#37
Mar 8, 2011
 

Judged:

1

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Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>And I have heard rumours that atheists have the answers? Proven wrong again. Please (that is if you can) provide me with some basis for your morality.
I already did.

I am so very sorry that your poor skills at Google prevented you from experiencing that post directly.

Pity you; you'll just have to flounder along in your ignorance as usual.
Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#38
Mar 9, 2011
 
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Great post. I enjoyed that :)
Thanks!

Here is the site it came from...

http://jesusneverexisted.com/sheep.html
Epicurus

Eustis, FL

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#39
Mar 9, 2011
 
Carnarvon wrote:
<quoted text>Your informed reply? Good one!
Glad you enjoyed it!

Here is the site it came from...

http://jesusneverexisted.com/sheep.html
Carnarvon

South Africa

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#40
Mar 9, 2011
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I already did.
I am so very sorry that your poor skills at Google prevented you from experiencing that post directly.
Pity you; you'll just have to flounder along in your ignorance as usual.
Yes, I seem to lack some skills there. Would you please enlighten me and answer the question on this forum?

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