LDS Apostle visited Tonga

There are 30178 comments on the Matangi Tonga story from Feb 24, 2014, titled LDS Apostle visited Tonga. In it, Matangi Tonga reports that:

Elder Neil L. Andersen, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, During their short stay in Tonga, the Apostle met and counseled church leaders to hasten the work of the Lord in Tonga.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Matangi Tonga.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#102 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You're taking things in a literal sense as it fits your opinion and not as it was said and not as other verses explain it in context. And where did you get perfection means we don't need Jesus? That's not in the scriptures. Perfection in the Lord is a state of spirituality, not the dismissal of one's faith in God. There is a difference you seem not to comprehend.
You are posting it in the literal sense. The verse says to perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Nothing about just in a spiritual. God is sinless, blameless, Jesus is saying we are to be that way. And he defines what being perfect actually means. If you think about killing your brother, you have committed that sin. If you have though about having sex with a woman, you have committed that sin. That is what you want to deny what is being said in the message. The thought of committing a sin is the same as actually doing the sin in the eyes of God. You want to claim otherwise, show us where it says different. And Spencer W. Kimball in his book "Miracle of Forgiveness" teaches the very same thing:

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin," Kimball writes.[Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 150.] The objective of repentance, he writes, is to obtain "perfection" as a prerequisite for achieving "immortality and eternal life.... This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.... Being perfect means to triumph over sin."[Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208-209.]

"This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."(The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 208-209).
If it's a literal statement as you claim it that you say can't be attained, than Jesus is a liar and all of God is a lie. It would also be (according to your logic) a literal statement if we hurt a little one, a child in any fashion even it it's just hurting their feelings, than we all should be using a heavy stone to drown ourselves in a body of deep water. That's your literal translation. Or will you state no that verse shouldn't be taken literally?
If I had said every verse was literal, you would be right, but I didn't. And yes, Mormonism is making Jesus and God liars.
Becoming perfect for a human comes in stages as one ages. It doesn't come overnight or in a week as you insinuate. Perfection for us is possible. The question is when have we arrived at the point of perfection. Only Jesus knows. He also stated if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains. Shall we take that statement literally(by your logic) that mustard seeds actually have intelligence and faith and if we have their faith we can then move a mountain? Of course not.
Jesus told us to become perfect. It's a long and arduous journey and he wouldn't have given that commandment if it wasn't possible.
Fine, name me one person who ever has became perfect and you will have proved me wrong. If you can't, you are also saying the Jesus and God are liars.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#103 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
The temple of Solomon existed when that statement was made. That temple was the house of the Lord as Jesus stated meaning the Lord dwelled their. Is Jesus a liar? The Lord dwelled in a series of temples beginning with Moses and all were made with human hands. You use that verse to state God never dwelled in any temple made by human hands yet, yet the fact is that God had dwelt in temples made by hands and did at that time dwell in the Temple of Solomon at that time period.
It's not a well thing to twist a verse to your own purpose instead of reading it as it was meant to be read.
Paul had entered a city where temples and idols flourished that people believed their god's lived within which they worshipped. Those were the temples the verse referenced. God never said he would never have temples built again after Jesus's death.
I have spoken correctly. God left the temple when Jesus was crucified.

Matthew 27:51
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

The believer was now the temple of God:

1 Corinthians 3:16-23
Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#104 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think the message is? A repeated phrase of "I love you" a thousand times and nothing more? The message/gospel of Jesus/God is the law. God's love and law are virtually one and the same thing. God's love can be felt IF, IF you are doing what he want's done. God stated if you aren't doing what God wants his love isn't with you. That means obeying his words.
God loves us because were his children, he calls us that. But his love also comes in the form of his laws and commandments and ordinances.
Love alone gives no one salvation. Faith and obedience to God's laws out of love for God finds one salvation. If love alone gave us salvation we wouldn't need laws.
I love when you intentionally try to misrepresent what I'm saying. The message of Jesus Christ is his love for you, which he showed us by dying for us to pay for our sins. The law never loved anybody. and like any parent, God loves us still, no matter what.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You so hate his grace and love, don't you?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#105 Apr 6, 2014
And what does Paul tells us about the law?

Romans 3:20 ESV
For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#106 Apr 6, 2014
Galatians 5:4 ESV
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Can't be any more plain than that.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#107 Apr 6, 2014
Galatians 2:16 ESV

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:28 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

For those who are willing to see, it is plain as day.
Lifuka

Tonga

#108 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
Galatians 2:16 ESV
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Romans 3:28 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
For those who are willing to see, it is plain as day.
You seem to read your scriptures very well. Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand what they mean. Ever wonder what they symbolize? You will find that most of the scriptures are in form of symbolism. Do not worry about the so called Mormons. Take the mode out of your own eyes and when you have done that, then quit all that you do and follow the Lord in ministering to his children. Feed them, wash their feet, heal them, comfort them.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#109 Apr 6, 2014
Lifuka wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem to read your scriptures very well. Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand what they mean. Ever wonder what they symbolize? You will find that most of the scriptures are in form of symbolism. Do not worry about the so called Mormons. Take the mode out of your own eyes and when you have done that, then quit all that you do and follow the Lord in ministering to his children. Feed them, wash their feet, heal them, comfort them.
What makes you think I don't?

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#110 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are posting it in the literal sense. The verse says to perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Nothing about just in a spiritual. God is sinless, blameless, Jesus is saying we are to be that way. And he defines what being perfect actually means. If you think about killing your brother, you have committed that sin. If you have though about having sex with a woman, you have committed that sin. That is what you want to deny what is being said in the message. The thought of committing a sin is the same as actually doing the sin in the eyes of God. You want to claim otherwise, show us where it says different. And Spencer W. Kimball in his book "Miracle of Forgiveness" teaches the very same thing:
"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin," Kimball writes.[Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 150.] The objective of repentance, he writes, is to obtain "perfection" as a prerequisite for achieving "immortality and eternal life.... This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.... Being perfect means to triumph over sin."[Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208-209.]
"This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."(The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 208-209).
<quoted text>
If I had said every verse was literal, you would be right, but I didn't. And yes, Mormonism is making Jesus and God liars.
<quoted text>
Fine, name me one person who ever has became perfect and you will have proved me wrong. If you can't, you are also saying the Jesus and God are liars.
You began this by stating we can't be perfect. You stated that, not me. Jesus stated for us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. That was a literal statement because Jesus added no partial meaning to being perfect. Jesus said to be perfect, not me, not you, Jesus said that and you stated what Jesus said can't be accomplished. That's calling Jesus a liar by stating you don't believe what he said.
The simple fact is Jesus stated for us to be perfect and you call him a liar because you claim it can't be done. Simple to understand. Jesus as God stated he flooded the world and you call him a liar on that account because you don't believe it happened. Jesus as God stated he created on earth a garden he called Eden and you call him a liar because you don't believe it existed. Everything Jesus as God made a statement of what he did in Genesis you call him a liar and nothing but a liar as Satan lies himself because you stated nothing in Genesis ever happened.
Jesus believed we could attain perfection whether in this life and or in the life to come he didn't say. But he believed we could reach perfection because he gave us a commandment to become perfect. You stated we can't reach the perfection Jesus spoke of. So you call him a liar. Again. Not tough to understand about you really.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#111 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are posting it in the literal sense. The verse says to perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Nothing about just in a spiritual. God is sinless, blameless, Jesus is saying we are to be that way. And he defines what being perfect actually means. If you think about killing your brother, you have committed that sin. If you have though about having sex with a woman, you have committed that sin. That is what you want to deny what is being said in the message. The thought of committing a sin is the same as actually doing the sin in the eyes of God. You want to claim otherwise, show us where it says different. And Spencer W. Kimball in his book
Also, you're reflecting how you think as being how all others think and not all others think as you, like having murderous thoughts which you have had. I would wager people exist who don't allow themselves to think murderous thoughts of others because they see it as a wrong thing to think and that it's not a good way to think, not even in a moment of anger.
I would wager there are people that don't think about murdering others or raping others or assaulting others mentally and or physically or robbing others for example because they feel those type thoughts as very abnormal and wrong.
But a person as yourself for example who thinks thinking violent and murderous thoughts are normal to have and all others have the same thoughts of you of murder and violence, that's some more of your abnormal thinking.
What you're trying (and badly at that) s that humans have no control of what they think. You're trying to prove by how you think that everyone thinks as you about murder, violence and sex. You're trying to prove it's not possible to not think murderous thoughts or violent thoughts or thoughts about sex.
By your own logic, we can take Jesus in the temple where he went after the vendors, people, animals and who ever else. According to you Jesus had violent/murderous thoughts for others and animals. You said thinking sin is committing sin. According to your logic, Jesus committed sin by thinking and doing violence to others and animals. That is your logic, not mine.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#112 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
I have spoken correctly. God left the temple when Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 27:51
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
The believer was now the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16-23
Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Umm not. Not by what the scriptures claim that you say is there. The scriptures make no claim God left the temple when Jesus was crucified. It stated the veil was rent, meaning torn from top to bottom that was used to shroud the holy of holies.
Also, the believer had always been a temple of God in that case. The Spirit of God had been spoken of in the OT times and told of being with the people when they had faith and obeyed God. You putting a time period for when a believer became a temple is a really bad twist.

And you stated God did not dwell in temples made by hands, you pasted that verse. Do you remember? You insinuated the verse had no time period and that God HAD NEVER DWELT IN A TEMPLE MADE BY HUMAN HANDS. That was your point. I can paste your exact words if you want?
But the fact is that God had in fact dwelt in temples made by human hands. That means the verse is hinting at another meaning you're missing. And the verse spelled it out very simply. Paul was in a city full of idolatrous temples and statues that God had never commanded to be built. That is what Paul was referencing. Paul himself attended the Temple of Solomon that he knew had been built by the instruction of God himself and that God dwelt in that very temple which Jesus also stated.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#113 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
I love when you intentionally try to misrepresent what I'm saying. The message of Jesus Christ is his love for you, which he showed us by dying for us to pay for our sins. The law never loved anybody. and like any parent, God loves us still, no matter what.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You so hate his grace and love, don't you?
No. But you have an itch to separate the plain and simple teachings of Jesus to your own twisted interpretations. You separate faith and works. I don't. I recognize faith and works become one and the same purpose for salvation. And now you separate the love of God from the law of God. I recognize the love of God is also the laws of God. Only the desperate would separate the two and claim one more important than the other. God is faith and God is works. God is love and God is law. Out of love he made the laws. They are one and the same in purpose. To take away one from God destroys what God is.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#114 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
And what does Paul tells us about the law?
Romans 3:20 ESV
For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
You have no comprehension of that verse. It doesn't justify your position that faith not works saves one to God.
You are totally without a clue of this part of that verse.... "..since through the law comes knowledge of sin." and how it relates to the first part.... "For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in his sight,..."
When you figure that verse out, you'll see how you use it at present is totally incorrect in context of what the verse is actually stating. Go Google the verse is my suggestion.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#115 Apr 6, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
Galatians 5:4 ESV
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Can't be any more plain than that.
Now let's take it in context which you didn't to spin a twist so you could make it seem to mean what you want it to mean, and incorrect again.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#116 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
No. But you have an itch to separate the plain and simple teachings of Jesus to your own twisted interpretations. You separate faith and works. I don't. I recognize faith and works become one and the same purpose for salvation. And now you separate the love of God from the law of God. I recognize the love of God is also the laws of God. Only the desperate would separate the two and claim one more important than the other. God is faith and God is works. God is love and God is law. Out of love he made the laws. They are one and the same in purpose. To take away one from God destroys what God is.
As usual, your unwillingness to understand what is plainly written is your problem, not mine.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#117 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Now let's take it in context which you didn't to spin a twist so you could make it seem to mean what you want it to mean, and incorrect again.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
"Let those who have eyes, see." It is still in the same context: "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#118 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no comprehension of that verse. It doesn't justify your position that faith not works saves one to God.
You are totally without a clue of this part of that verse.... "..since through the law comes knowledge of sin." and how it relates to the first part.... "For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in his sight,..."
When you figure that verse out, you'll see how you use it at present is totally incorrect in context of what the verse is actually stating. Go Google the verse is my suggestion.
"Let him who have ears, hear." The law doesn't save you or the obeying of it. Only the grace of Jesus Christ does.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#119 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, you're reflecting how you think as being how all others think and not all others think as you, like having murderous thoughts which you have had. I would wager people exist who don't allow themselves to think murderous thoughts of others because they see it as a wrong thing to think and that it's not a good way to think, not even in a moment of anger.
I would wager there are people that don't think about murdering others or raping others or assaulting others mentally and or physically or robbing others for example because they feel those type thoughts as very abnormal and wrong.
But a person as yourself for example who thinks thinking violent and murderous thoughts are normal to have and all others have the same thoughts of you of murder and violence, that's some more of your abnormal thinking.
What you're trying (and badly at that) s that humans have no control of what they think. You're trying to prove by how you think that everyone thinks as you about murder, violence and sex. You're trying to prove it's not possible to not think murderous thoughts or violent thoughts or thoughts about sex.
By your own logic, we can take Jesus in the temple where he went after the vendors, people, animals and who ever else. According to you Jesus had violent/murderous thoughts for others and animals. You said thinking sin is committing sin. According to your logic, Jesus committed sin by thinking and doing violence to others and animals. That is your logic, not mine.
Here you go down your usual lying deceiving path again. Why can't you stop being so dishonest? I have never claimed Jesus had murdering thoughts. That will be you trying to dishonor Christ to save the perverted LDS church. As for what you would wager, who cares? Prove or don't prove, the bigger issue isn't worth putting the hope of your salvation on a bet. Any sin is sin enough to keep us out of the Kingdom of Heaven when the demand is perfection.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#120 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Umm not. Not by what the scriptures claim that you say is there. The scriptures make no claim God left the temple when Jesus was crucified. It stated the veil was rent, meaning torn from top to bottom that was used to shroud the holy of holies.
The place was the "Holy of Holies" because the presence of God dwelled there according to the OT. The veil was rent from top to bottom because he left, meaning it was no longer the Holy of Holies. I'm sorry if you are ignorant of that fact.
Also, the believer had always been a temple of God in that case. The Spirit of God had been spoken of in the OT times and told of being with the people when they had faith and obeyed God. You putting a time period for when a believer became a temple is a really bad twist.
Study "Day of Pentecost", Gift of the Holy Ghost, and "Another Comforter" and learn something. People in general did not get the gift of the Holy Ghost until after Jesus left. Have you ever read a Bible?
And you stated God did not dwell in temples made by hands, you pasted that verse. Do you remember? You insinuated the verse had no time period and that God HAD NEVER DWELT IN A TEMPLE MADE BY HUMAN HANDS. That was your point. I can paste your exact words if you want?
But the fact is that God had in fact dwelt in temples made by human hands. That means the verse is hinting at another meaning you're missing. And the verse spelled it out very simply. Paul was in a city full of idolatrous temples and statues that God had never commanded to be built. That is what Paul was referencing. Paul himself attended the Temple of Solomon that he knew had been built by the instruction of God himself and that God dwelt in that very temple which Jesus also stated.
I accurately stated: "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;". "Does not" doesn't mean "never did". People who can read should be able to get that. Get some reading comprehension skills.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#121 Apr 6, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You began this by stating we can't be perfect. You stated that, not me. Jesus stated for us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. That was a literal statement because Jesus added no partial meaning to being perfect. Jesus said to be perfect, not me, not you, Jesus said that and you stated what Jesus said can't be accomplished. That's calling Jesus a liar by stating you don't believe what he said.
The simple fact is Jesus stated for us to be perfect and you call him a liar because you claim it can't be done. Simple to understand. Jesus as God stated he flooded the world and you call him a liar on that account because you don't believe it happened. Jesus as God stated he created on earth a garden he called Eden and you call him a liar because you don't believe it existed. Everything Jesus as God made a statement of what he did in Genesis you call him a liar and nothing but a liar as Satan lies himself because you stated nothing in Genesis ever happened.
Jesus believed we could attain perfection whether in this life and or in the life to come he didn't say. But he believed we could reach perfection because he gave us a commandment to become perfect. You stated we can't reach the perfection Jesus spoke of. So you call him a liar. Again. Not tough to understand about you really.
The only ones who can be perfect in the eyes of God are those who are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through his attoning sacrifice. No one can be perfect in obeying the law. The proof? No one has ever done it. Prove me wrong.

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