Puerto Ricans confront race issue

For the first time in 50 years, residents of Puerto Rico have identified themselves racially in the U.S. census -- a milestone that civil-rights activists hope will spark public debate about discrimination on ... Full Story

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#50 Mar 16, 2008
Rob wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't. I've seen the neighboring islands, and while they're fun to visit, I have no reason to want to live in them.
I'm personally for a major reclassification of our status, that does not involve statehood or independence.
IME, Statehood has done quite a bit of bad for Hawaii, as they are subject to federal economic policies that are designed to benefit the lower 48. Hence, the large pro-independence movement in Hawaii (even larger than PR's).
Independence is equally bad. Look at the Philippines.
A reclassification of PR's colonial status is in order. One that allows PR representation on Federal affairs and presidential vote in return for paying federal income tax.
Or perhaps my racist friends don't want a state full of mulattos **ROLLEYES**
Puerto Rico can hardly be equated to the Philippines! Enhanced Commonwealth is so blatantly unconstitutional that it is a waste of time to even discuss such a 'phantom.'

In my lifetime the US Congress will never give statehood to Puerto Rico. One simple reason. The legal system in Puerto Rico is based on Spanish codified law and conducted in Spanish. No state has a legal system that is officially conducted in any language but English.

The lawyers in Puerto Rico conduct their business in Spanish. As a retired lawyer from the US I can tell you that one's acumen with language is VERY important in the practice of law. The lawyers will do ANYTHING possible to keep the system from being switched to English.

The US Congress will NEVER allow a state that does not guarantee that all legal proceedings are officially recorded in English.

Puerto Rico deserves independence. After 500 years they have never been anything but a colonial step-child to the two countries that claimed them. They deserve the right to show they can survive as an independent nation.

Only the US Congress can change the status of Puerto Rico. 1000 plebiscites and referendums in Puerto Rico cannot change this fact. Call and write YOUR congressional representative and Senators to free the island. We don't HAVE voting representatives in Congress, just official voyeurs.
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#52 Mar 16, 2008
Patricia wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again you are swimming up the wrong stream...the U.S decided tax policies not the Puerto Ricans and there are many Puerto Ricans that pay taxes in the U.S, so take it up with your Anglo-government. I suggest you write to them. They started this whole mess, now it is up to us to pick up the pieces. First, prior to the people of Puerto Rico making the decision to be Independent a huge
educational campaign has to be waged by Puerto Ricans to decolonize the mind of our people, from Anglo co-dependence, which was ingrained in us through the oppresive ideas of the oppressor, just like the cycle of abuse, those who have knowledge of the cycle of domestic violence know that first one has to treat the mind. Our people have suffered at the hands of racist derogatory abuse for a long time. To decolonize the souls of our people, will take time...so this is an internal discussion. Those outside of the arena are clueless and give shallow remedies, based on Eurocentric models.
The people on that island will decide, it is a matter of time. So for the Americans who are upset with Puerto Rico being a commonwealth or colony take it up with your government, they are the source, we only live the symptom of years of abuse by your government.
Long story short, back in 1898, when the US "liberated" our island from Spain (which btw, at that point, Puerto Ricans had the full rights and privileges afforded to Spanish citizens) as payment for the Spanish-American war, the Americans underestimated the will of the Puerto Rican people and started to force its culture on the people of the island. It attempted to turn San Juan into a Caribbean New York with a Latin veneer.

In some ways they succeeded, as we are the only Spanish speaking country in the world that uses miles regularly (as in MPH), and unlike what many of my Anglo compatriots choose to believe, the level of English competency is extremely high, given the part of the world PR is in and its ancestral stock.

However, it was a failure in that it disenfranchised the people of Puerto Rico, giving them a second class citizenship, affording residents of Puerto Rico only some of the rights in the US Constitution, and leaving Puerto Rico as only one of two places on the planet in which your voice does not matter- Puerto Rico and Cuba. Two wings of the same bird, sister islands throughout history... even now, joined by this sad fact.
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#53 Mar 16, 2008
gringo in tropics wrote:
<quoted text>
It's that Dublin that will kill you. That Spanish too.
The Moors dominated southern Spain for centuries. Their expulsion from Spain coincided with the Spanish discovery voyages of Columbus. The expulsion of the Moors was the true basis of power for Ferdinand and Isabela.
But my grandmother was from the southern part of Ireland. In some of those sea coast towns arose a 'subculture' known as the Black Irish. These people had 'absorbed' Moorish sailors that landed in Ireland. The locals had features common to Moors (black, kinky hair, broad noses, thick lips) but blue eyes and white colored skin.
So, maybe you have a 'drop' from either of those "pure" sources. I do.
I might, but given that even in Spain, my grandparents, parents, siblings, and I stick out like sore thumbs since we're so light skinned, I'm certain that if there is a drop of moor blood in my veins, it hasn't made in appearance in many generations :) Or perhaps it was purged.

The Irish ancestry... all it did was take away my ability to tan successfully... and perhaps it gave me my dark and dry sense of humor and taste for dark beer.
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#55 Mar 16, 2008
gringo in tropics wrote:
<quoted text>
Puerto Rico can hardly be equated to the Philippines! Enhanced Commonwealth is so blatantly unconstitutional that it is a waste of time to even discuss such a 'phantom.'
In my lifetime the US Congress will never give statehood to Puerto Rico. One simple reason. The legal system in Puerto Rico is based on Spanish codified law and conducted in Spanish. No state has a legal system that is officially conducted in any language but English.
The lawyers in Puerto Rico conduct their business in Spanish. As a retired lawyer from the US I can tell you that one's acumen with language is VERY important in the practice of law. The lawyers will do ANYTHING possible to keep the system from being switched to English.
The US Congress will NEVER allow a state that does not guarantee that all legal proceedings are officially recorded in English.
Puerto Rico deserves independence. After 500 years they have never been anything but a colonial step-child to the two countries that claimed them. They deserve the right to show they can survive as an independent nation.
Only the US Congress can change the status of Puerto Rico. 1000 plebiscites and referendums in Puerto Rico cannot change this fact. Call and write YOUR congressional representative and Senators to free the island. We don't HAVE voting representatives in Congress, just official voyeurs.
Given the stability of this geographic region and the more vocal political range and voice on the island, I could very well see PR become another Philippines... perhaps Dominican Republic.

Given the debatable constitutionality of the current commonwealth status with the US, perhaps a revised commonwealth could be a more palatable resolution.

Now as for PR and the Spanish Civil Code... I won't argue the basis for PR law. My dad is an attorney on the island, and a former judge/politician, and since childhood I listened to his rhetoric and found myself quite intrigued with the law. Hell, my LSAT score and my GPA indicate that I should have gone to law school... but alas, I am a rebel... MFA for me please :) I agree about the language argument as well, but part of PR becoming a state would allow for us to be a Spanish speaking state (like an American Québec, or like the other bilingual US states). Lastly,could you clarify Louisiana's legal system for me?

Pardon my lack of procedure. In my previous post, I mentioned I was a rebel... I could never bother to learn proper procedures :)
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#56 Mar 16, 2008
Frito Bandito wrote:
<quoted text>
You can..., where's your Ethnic DNA test. I think we've had this discussion before about your rambunctious rant about how "lily White" you are.
Personally, I think you're an example of some pompous PR schmuck who talks out of his arce about how White he is and can't really prove it. "Yo soy mas blanco que tu"..., sound familiar? C'mon pal... where's the DNA test? I've got mine.
Mi lista de apellidos y mis fotos de mis ancestros es mi prueba.

But if you would like, I took the same test mentioned on 60 minutes in 2002. I can't claim 100% anything, but I can claim a high percentage. 97% Indo-European, 3% East Asian, with further breakdown 57% Northern European Subgroup, 40% Southeastern/Mediterranean Subgroup.

So I apologize for lying. The 3% East Asian will manifest itself at some point in my genetic future... at which point, from up above, I shall welcome my darling Asian great-great(X) grandchild to the earth :) I'm not lily-white, only pale now :(
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#57 Mar 16, 2008
Titan wrote:
<quoted text>
Enjoy. Start a independence party and get your freedom form the racist to the north.
Would you please explain how you assumed that I am pro-independence by my statement?

Please clarify, since I am wondering that myself.

Or perhaps you follow the current American mentality of "you're either with us, or against us."

I think that's the case.
Rob

San Juan, Puerto Rico

#62 Mar 16, 2008
Frito, you win.

You win the battle of the internet.

I'll go back to living IRL now.

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#63 Mar 16, 2008
Rob wrote:
<quoted text>
Given the stability of this geographic region and the more vocal political range and voice on the island, I could very well see PR become another Philippines... perhaps Dominican Republic.
Given the debatable constitutionality of the current commonwealth status with the US, perhaps a revised commonwealth could be a more palatable resolution.
Now as for PR and the Spanish Civil Code... I won't argue the basis for PR law. My dad is an attorney on the island, and a former judge/politician, and since childhood I listened to his rhetoric and found myself quite intrigued with the law. Hell, my LSAT score and my GPA indicate that I should have gone to law school... but alas, I am a rebel... MFA for me please :) I agree about the language argument as well, but part of PR becoming a state would allow for us to be a Spanish speaking state (like an American Québec, or like the other bilingual US states). Lastly,could you clarify Louisiana's legal system for me?
Pardon my lack of procedure. In my previous post, I mentioned I was a rebel... I could never bother to learn proper procedures :)
Lousiana law is unique in the US system, but is exclusively practiced in English. It is based on Napoleanic codified law, the only US state so based.

Another Quebec? You can't seriously wish THAT on Puerto Rico.

Nothing about Commonwealth that conflicts with the US constitution--the 'Commonwealth' is a territory, subject to the territorial clause of the US Constitution--just another colony that isn't allowed to make decisions for itself outside the island. International relations--exclusively the perview of the US government.

Please don't deceive yourself into thinking there are more than 3 possible statuses for Puerto Rico--colony, independent nation (maybe with free association for some agreed time between two sovereign nations) or statehood. We have colony. The US Congress is the ONLY body that can declare statehood TO the US union. Independence can be achieved in one of several ways but the GRANT of independence by the US Congress is the least traumatic for everyone.

Ask your dad about the language in the legal system. See if he agrees with me in any way. I don't profess to be any authority on the Puerto Rican legal system, just the Federal legal system. I could function there with no problem--I know the procedure and it is conducted in English exclusively (if someone testifies in Spanish, it's translated into English right there in front of everyone--the record is in English exclusively.)

Like the Mormons outlawing polygamy in Utah Territory to attain statehood Puerto Rico will have to make English THE official language of the legal system to attain statehood.

It took Utah nearly 20 years AFTER outlawing polygamy to get the US Congress to vote them in as a state. The statehood clock for Puerto Rico won't even start running until English is the language of the courts in Puerto Rico. It's a high barrier. It will not be scaled in my lifetime, but I'm nearly 60.
change agent

Lexington, SC

#69 Mar 17, 2008
Who Cares wrote:
Why is this article in my local newspaper????
I don't live(Thank God)in PR!!!!!!!
i find the topic very interesting.

you also don't live in pakistan, iran, germany, france, spain itlay, indonesia, china, north korea, iraq, afghanistan, etc.- but we sure hear a lot about those places too. sorry to hear you want to wear blinders to keep your focus narrowed to only your little corner of your world

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#70 Mar 17, 2008
"During the 1880s and 1890s, Puerto Ricans developed many different political parties, some of which sought independence for island while others, headquartered like their Cuban counterparts in New York, preferred to ally with the United States. Spain proclaimed the autonomy of Puerto Rico on November 25, 1897, although the news did not reach the island until January 1898 and a new government established on February 12, 1898."

Library of Congress
http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/intro.htm...

The autonomy of Puerto Rico from Spain was NOT independence. The Spanish summarily relinquished Puerto Rico and the Spanish Virgins (including Mona) without even ASKING Puerto Rico. A country cannot cede what it does not 'own.'

Article IV, Section 3, Paragraph 2 of the United States Constitution is known as the Territorial Clause. It states:
“ The Congress shall have Powers to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States (...)”

This power applies to Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam, the Mariana Islands, and American Samoa, all legal territories claimed by the United States. The extent of these powers is defined by the Supreme Court of the United States in a group of legal cases known as the 'Insular Cases.'
woo

Syracuse, NY

#75 Mar 17, 2008
FEEL THE LOVE

Since: Feb 07

Caguas, Puerto Rico

#78 Mar 17, 2008
Patricia wrote:
<quoted text>Your right their is no group that is not guilty, but for now we need to keep in mind who is the "dominant group" who determines global polices and who are the predators of countries with populated by people of color. For now it is not the other way around. We live an unfortunate time of "white supremacy." so for now the world is dominated by their frames or ideals ours are pushed out of site.
Is your cause equality, or simply a stance against the "dominant group"?

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#79 Mar 17, 2008
Patricia wrote:
<quoted text>Your right their is no group that is not guilty, but for now we need to keep in mind who is the "dominant group" who determines global polices and who are the predators of countries with populated by people of color. For now it is not the other way around. We live an unfortunate time of "white supremacy." so for now the world is dominated by their frames or ideals ours are pushed out of site.
We live in a time of American and Chinese hegemony. Please give credit where it is due; don't lay racism at the feet of 'white supremacy' exclusively. You will start to sound like 'them.'

Since: Feb 07

Caguas, Puerto Rico

#82 Mar 17, 2008
Patricia wrote:
<quoted text>Thank you Jester for asking that question. We certainly have to be careful with our approaches to injustice. However I would say that I want to take the lead from the people in Puerto Rico who are experiencing discrimination by Puerto Ricans.
This is not my cause but it is theirs, I will simply follow their lead, it is their angle that we need to get in touch with. Puerto Ricans of color did not start this issue, they did not create racism. If you like and you have time, look it up. So our finger should not point at people of color, so if it is equality that my brothers and sisters want, then I will follow.
but in the name of justice we should never silence truth. Once again, thank you
Of the 81 previous posts on this thread, 29 are yours. Who exactly is it that you're following, again?
I Care

Daytona Beach, FL

#85 Mar 17, 2008
Who Cares wrote:
Why is this article in my local newspaper????
I don't live(Thank God)in PR!!!!!!!
SHAME ON YOU !!! YOU LIVE IN APOPKA THAT HAS SUCH A DIVERSE POPULATION THAT YOU HAVE ALMOST 10 LATIN SUPERMARKETS THERE-- I GUESS YOU CAN SHOP THEM FOR GREAT PRICES BUT WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH LATINOS
Monica

Albuquerque, NM

#87 Mar 18, 2008
La cosa que no debemos olvidar es el daño q. nos causó el gobierno estadounidense al pueblo puertorriqueño, los pueblos indígenas del continente norteamericano y el daño presente a la gente latinoamericana que se sale de sus países queridos por causa de presiones económicas causadas por ese mismo gobierno. Con las escuelas internadas, el gobierno estadounidense quitó la lengua y la identidad de la gente indígena y se le puso la enfermedad de racialismo contra nuestra propia gente.
Nosotros, la raza, la gente morena, sabemos q. la culpa no es nuestra, sino de "ellos". "Blanca" no significa "mejor", tampoco significa "mas inteligente", ni "preferida". El cambio empiece con Ud. Saludos mi gente!

Since: Feb 07

Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico

#88 Mar 18, 2008
Patricia wrote:
All we need to know is in books sweetheart. Libraries are everywhere so if you want to know who I follow visit your local library. What I state is not a mystery, nor unclassified data. or FBI wanted, it is all out in open. In bookstores, universities libraries, etc. Just for your info, isnt the cold war over?
Is that your idea of a "straight answer"?
Mister H

Winter Garden, FL

#91 Mar 18, 2008
Nuke Puerto Rico.
chucky-1

Plaza, Panama

#92 Mar 18, 2008
who the hell would claim any of it?
Mad

San Antonio, TX

#93 Mar 18, 2008
According to the history books I read Spain traded the island of Puerto Rico to us for a sack of beans and a hog and they are still laughing about the deal they gave us on that one!

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