Mormons planning to build temple in Phoenix

[PinkyandNoBrain]

You give 1/10 of what you earn to a man who talks to you about God and to a building dedicated to God.

I'm no religious person, but I'd say that someone is taking advantage of you and your kindness and your faith.

I have plenty of faith, but I don't have faith in the common man.

Don't believe everything that you read or hear.

[blackbirdxx]

PinkyandNoBrain wrote:

You give 1/10 of what you earn to a man who talks to you about God and to a building dedicated to God.
I'm no religious person, but I'd say that someone is taking advantage of you and your kindness and your faith.
I have plenty of faith, but I don't have faith in the common man.
Don't believe everything that you read or hear.

Ya..that about adds up fast..think 100 people..say i make 40K a year
10%= 4k x 100 $400k a year..and only work on sundays?

[PinkyandNoBrain]

It's funny. My friend attends a church with something like 2500 regulars. This translates into about 1000 working adults. They are mostly well to do people with yearly salaries between $40-100K. So, we can assume an average of $70,000/year/adult. At 10%,you got $7,000 per person per year. 1000 X $7,000 =$7,000,000 per year. We were talking about what happens to the money and he told me that they gave $20-30K to some other church. Still leaves a chunk of $6,970,000. Well, he told me that they have to pay for the electricity and bills. We figure $1000/month. Still leaves a cool $6.968M. He also brought up the fact that his pastor's salary is $40,000/yr. This still leaves a cool $6.928M. But this is a non-profit organization. Where'd the $6.928M go? Well, the pastor lives in a very nice house with an olympic size swiming pool and his kids all drive new cars as well as him and his wife.

You think this is a good business or what? I'm opening my own church. PinkyandNoBrain speak on God.

[blackbirdxx]

PinkyandNoBrain wrote:

It's funny. My friend attends a church with something like 2500 regulars. This translates into about 1000 working adults. They are mostly well to do people with yearly salaries between $40-100K. So, we can assume an average of $70,000/year/adult. At 10%,you got $7,000 per person per year. 1000 X $7,000 =$7,000,000 per year. We were talking about what happens to the money and he told me that they gave $20-30K to some other church. Still leaves a chunk of $6,970,000. Well, he told me that they have to pay for the electricity and bills. We figure $1000/month. Still leaves a cool $6.968M. He also brought up the fact that his pastor's salary is $40,000/yr. This still leaves a cool $6.928M. But this is a non-profit organization. Where'd the $6.928M go? Well, the pastor lives in a very nice house with an olympic size swiming pool and his kids all drive new cars as well as him and his wife.
You think this is a good business or what? I'm opening my own church. PinkyandNoBrain speak on God.

After living in utah for 25 years, and any mormons with facts, feel free to correct me if i am wrong, the mormon financial scheme is something like this:
Each working family contributes it's 10% to the church (stake) they attend. That church keeps track of the 'payments' and if the 'account' is 'paid in full' those members are listed as 'in good standing with the church'

(so like if they die and are in good standing..they get to go to mo mo heaven..and if they are not in good standing..i guess they don't)

That church forwards all 'payments' to the mormon main church.
The main church pays to build the little churches, and covers the overhead.

The bishops for each little church do not get paid (i think that's the non profit part) they all have regular jobs.

That would be how ya build a $5+ billion a year financial empire 'using' 13 million people.

And in case it matters..the Mormons claim to be Christians, follow the teachings of the bible...yet the leader of the church is not a pope, he is 'President and CEO' and has absolute control over every dollar that rolls in the door.

And another twist..Utah government is in a financial bind, they are cutting services all over the place to fix the budget..Most of the mormons probably pay as much money to the church as they pay in taxes..the church is running 'fat cat' the government is broke..
you would think maybe the church would help the government out..just a little bit? Mormon runs the state without and financial liability.....i guess that is how they apply that 'separation of church and state' thing.

[Pahoran]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
After living in utah for 25 years, and any mormons with facts, feel free to correct me if i am wrong, the mormon financial scheme is something like this:
Each working family contributes it's 10% to the church (stake) they attend. That church keeps track of the 'payments' and if the 'account' is 'paid in full' those members are listed as 'in good standing with the church'

Not quite.

The Church does not track our incomes.*We* tell the *Church* whether our tithing is full or in part.

And good standing involves considerably more than tithing.

Snip the sneer.

blackbirdxx wrote:

That church forwards all 'payments' to the mormon main church.
The main church pays to build the little churches, and covers the overhead.
The bishops for each little church do not get paid (i think that's the non profit part) they all have regular jobs.
That would be how ya build a $5+ billion a year financial empire 'using' 13 million people.
And in case it matters..the Mormons claim to be Christians, follow the teachings of the bible...yet the leader of the church is not a pope,

So what? Can you point out where the word "pope" can be found in the Bible?

The office of "Pontifex Maximus" was established by Numa Pompilius, second king of Rome, in the 6th century BC, as the title of the supreme head of the pagan Roman state cult. It has nothing to do with the Bible. Just so you know.

blackbirdxx wrote:

he is 'President and CEO'

He is the President of the Church. You made up the "CEO" part.

Why should titles be obviously religious? "Bishop" comes from Greek "episkopos" and literally means "supervisor" or "overseer." IOW, it came from the workaday world. "Elder" originally meant nothing more than "an older man." Even "Apostle" has the base meaning of "messenger" or "courier," and was a word in general use thoughout the Greek-speaking world in the 1st century. The ancient church adopted common terms for ecclesiastical offices, and so have we, apart from the traditional titles we have retained.

blackbirdxx wrote:

and has absolute control over every dollar that rolls in the door.

That is not true. The tithes are handled by a council of which he is the chair, but he doesn't have sole control.

blackbirdxx wrote:

And another twist..Utah government is in a financial bind, they are cutting services all over the place to fix the budget..

And they're not the only ones; a number of US states, and several countries, are in the same bind. This is the Church's fault because...?

blackbirdxx wrote:

Most of the mormons probably pay as much money to the church as they pay in taxes..the church is running 'fat cat' the government is broke..

Governments are often inefficient.

But the Church is not merely a Utah institution.

blackbirdxx wrote:

you would think maybe the church would help the government out..just a little bit? Mormon runs the state without and financial liability.....i guess that is how they apply that 'separation of church and state' thing.

The Church does not "run the state." That is a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Regards,
Pahoran

[blackbirdxx]

Pahoran wrote:

<quoted text>
Not quite.
The Church does not track our incomes.*We* tell the *Church* whether our tithing is full or in part.
And good standing involves considerably more than tithing.
Snip the sneer.
<quoted text>
So what? Can you point out where the word "pope" can be found in the Bible?
The office of "Pontifex Maximus" was established by Numa Pompilius, second king of Rome, in the 6th century BC, as the title of the supreme head of the pagan Roman state cult. It has nothing to do with the Bible. Just so you know.
<quoted text>
He is the President of the Church. You made up the "CEO" part.
Why should titles be obviously religious? "Bishop" comes from Greek "episkopos" and literally means "supervisor" or "overseer." IOW, it came from the workaday world. "Elder" originally meant nothing more than "an older man." Even "Apostle" has the base meaning of "messenger" or "courier," and was a word in general use thoughout the Greek-speaking world in the 1st century. The ancient church adopted common terms for ecclesiastical offices, and so have we, apart from the traditional titles we have retained.
<quoted text>
That is not true. The tithes are handled by a council of which he is the chair, but he doesn't have sole control.
<quoted text>
And they're not the only ones; a number of US states, and several countries, are in the same bind. This is the Church's fault because...?
<quoted text>
Governments are often inefficient.
But the Church is not merely a Utah institution.
<quoted text>
The Church does not "run the state." That is a ridiculous conspiracy theory.
Regards,
Pahoran

Hey..you are doing better..at least you are staying on subject, now lets work on your reading/comprehensions skills.
You said: The Church does not track our incomes
I said: After living in utah for 25 years....
I have heard that from many Mormons..they don't track..we give what we can...none of them actually lived in utah...and there is a difference between Utah mormons and rest of the world Mormons...
You live in New Zealand...half a world away...being good business men, the leaders of your church might not expect a high return on their investment.
You said: And good standing involves considerably more than tithing.
And while that might be true, it does not relate to anything that
i was discussing in my statement.
You said: "Snip the sneer."
Wazat? some kind of down under slang.?
You said: So what? Can you point out where the word "pope" can be found in the Bible?
It is not so much that his title is note pope....
The title "President" has no religious or spiritual connotations of any kind...and in fact, it is more likely to be applied to a person who runs a business organization.
You said: You made up the "CEO" part.
No, i did not make it up. I simply applied a term commonly applied to a person who has control over a business organization.
You said:That is not true. The tithes are handled by a council of which he is the chair, but he doesn't have sole control.
He is still the President...the council is composed of people who supply him with needed information and take care of details,
I would not expect a single man to totally oversee every minute detail involved in the operation of a multi billion dollar business organization with and estimated net worth approaching 50 billion dollars...right up to and including ownership of .7% of the sate of florida.

[blackbirdxx]

As for the rest of your comments....
I concede to a bit of confusion to some of that. The church, being a well run business organization, consistently earning such a high profit margin...and the actual state, having approximately 70% of people actually running the government, being mormon, logic says that the state would be run in a more efficient manner.
It quite possibly might be that the Mormons who run the government
have much to do with the churches prosperity...But there is no real way to know about that...government and religion...they all got the secrets...
And if you don't think the church doesn't have control over government...why are polygamists so prosperous there? They pay no taxes..the women collect welfare, the men are never held financially responsible for the dozen of children they father...
While any other father of a child would have 75% of his wages garnished simply because he has a job?

[Hannah Rebekah]

blackbirdxx wrote:

As for the rest of your comments....
I concede to a bit of confusion to some of that. The church, being a well run business organization, consistently earning such a high profit margin...and the actual state, having approximately 70% of people actually running the government, being mormon, logic says that the state would be run in a more efficient manner.
It quite possibly might be that the Mormons who run the government
have much to do with the churches prosperity...But there is no real way to know about that...government and religion...they all got the secrets...
And if you don't think the church doesn't have control over government...why are polygamists so prosperous there? They pay no taxes..the women collect welfare, the men are never held financially responsible for the dozen of children they father...
While any other father of a child would have 75% of his wages garnished simply because he has a job?

blackbirdxx,
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were different...but you are another putz just like CIB. Your hatred has made you a mean little man. No Mormon has hurt you and for you to attack us is reprehensible. I tried to be kind to you and to be a friend and all I got is a lot of jabbs from you. Why don't you grow up and be a real human being for a change.

[Poom]

Watch out.

You have offended Mother Hannah.

She can be a real bitch if you upset her too much.

[Pahoran]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
Hey..you are doing better..at least you are staying on subject, now lets work on your reading/comprehensions skills.
You said: The Church does not track our incomes
I said: After living in utah for 25 years....
I have heard that from many Mormons..they don't track..we give what we can...none of them actually lived in utah...and there is a difference between Utah mormons and rest of the world Mormons...

So I've heard; but the Church is the same everywhere.
And does not track its members' incomes. Anywhere.

blackbirdxx wrote:

You live in New Zealand...half a world away...being good business men, the leaders of your church might not expect a high return on their investment.

It's a fact that the Church is happy to subsidise other countries from US tithing receipts. Kind of puts the kibosh on the notion that the Church is merely a money-making scheme -- but then again, nobody with two clues to rub together ever really believed that anyway.

blackbirdxx wrote:

You said: And good standing involves considerably more than tithing.
And while that might be true, it does not relate to anything that
i was discussing in my statement.

You claimed that tithe paying == good standing. I pointed out that in fact tithe paying < good standing.

blackbirdxx wrote:

You said: "Snip the sneer."
Wazat? some kind of down under slang.?

Actually "snip" is an old Usenet term, used to mark where I have removed autoquoted material without responding. I also noted that the snipped material was a sneer, to explain why.

blackbirdxx wrote:

You said: So what? Can you point out where the word "pope" can be found in the Bible?
It is not so much that his title is note pope....

Which has nothing to do with whether or not the Church follows the Bible.

blackbirdxx wrote:

The title "President" has no religious or spiritual connotations of any kind...and in fact, it is more likely to be applied to a person who runs a business organization.

And, as I pointed out, so originally did "Bishop," which is simply creolised Greek for "overseer," a foreman of work.

But the Church of Jesus Christ had ecclesiastical presidents at a time when most American corporations were still being run by general managers; just so you know. Your abhorrence of the "P" word is a purely presentist affectation.

End of part 1.

[Pahoran]

Part 2

blackbirdxx wrote:

You said: You made up the "CEO" part.
No, i did not make it up. I simply applied a term commonly applied to a person who has control over a business organization.

In order to mock.*AND* you put it in quotation marks, as if it were part of his actual title.

When it was not.

And you *KNEW* it was not.

blackbirdxx wrote:

You said:That is not true. The tithes are handled by a council of which he is the chair, but he doesn't have sole control.
He is still the President...the council is composed of people who supply him with needed information and take care of details,

No. It is composed of two of the three most senior Church leadership quorums: the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric. They of course have staff who supply them with details, but all six of them are part of the decision making process. That is a fact.

And arguably, when it comes to the actual dollars spent, the PB may actually control more money, in practical terms, because they are responsible for the Church's physical facilities, i.e. all the meetinghouses around the world; the building and maintenance of which must account for the bulk of the Church's outlay.

blackbirdxx wrote:

I would not expect a single man to totally oversee every minute detail involved in the operation of a multi billion dollar business organization with and estimated net worth approaching 50 billion dollars...right up to and including ownership of .7% of the sate of florida.

Yes, it's a big ranch.

I'm sure it helps the Church's net worth that it has no actual debt apart from normal operating "terms of trade" for ongoing work.

Regards,
Pahoran

[Pahoran]

blackbirdxx wrote:

As for the rest of your comments....
I concede to a bit of confusion to some of that. The church, being a well run business organization, consistently earning such a high profit margin...and the actual state, having approximately 70% of people actually running the government, being mormon, logic says that the state would be run in a more efficient manner.

That's not logic, that's optimism. Everyone hopes that, every election.

The problem is that government -- especially democratic government -- is *essentially* inefficient. And it may well be better that way. The most efficient government model is an absolute monarchy, or something equally autocratic. And while there have in times past been good kings and benevolent despots, life under such governments can be pretty unpleasant -- or worse, short.

blackbirdxx wrote:

It quite possibly might be that the Mormons who run the government
have much to do with the churches prosperity...But there is no real way to know about that...government and religion...they all got the secrets...

Actually a little common sense might show you that the Church is less like a corporation than it is like a small country; but it's got no borders, so it doesn't have to maintain an army or a navy. It is without many of the costs of government. In particular, it doesn't have to manage a national economy. OTOH, neither can it increase the "tax" rate to fund a spending splurge, as regular governments can. People love to sneer about tithing, but it's fully biblical -- and the rate is fixed. The Church's financial management has simply *had* to be prudent.

Which is probably the *real* key to the Church's financial success.

I know; conspiracy theories are *much* more fun.

blackbirdxx wrote:

And if you don't think the church doesn't have control over government...why are polygamists so prosperous there?

Well there's the thing, you see; the polygamists have nothing to do with us. They are independent organisations, with their own leadership groups. There is a historical link, but not an organisational one.

blackbirdxx wrote:

They pay no taxes..the women collect welfare, the men are never held financially responsible for the dozen of children they father...
While any other father of a child would have 75% of his wages garnished simply because he has a job?

I agree with you; it's disgusting to see those guys milking the system. There are other guys much closer to me who do the same, entirely sans polygamy. I have a standing joke I use when people ask me if I have Sky, the local pay TV service: "I can't afford Sky, I'm not on the dole."

Milking government welfare is not unique to polygamists; it is common among people who see themselves on the fringes of normal society.

Unlike real Mormons.

Regards,
Pahoran

[blackbirdxx]

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
blackbirdxx,
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were different...but you are another putz just like CIB. Your hatred has made you a mean little man. No Mormon has hurt you and for you to attack us is reprehensible. I tried to be kind to you and to be a friend and all I got is a lot of jabbs from you. Why don't you grow up and be a real human being for a change.

Oh Hannah, calm down...and i AM different, more different than most
around here..and for sure nuthing like CIB at least i try to be polite...and he has that habit of attacking the beliefs of another
and using his own to prove his point.
I am unable to that..i do not have 'beliefs' i only have knowledge
from facts that life has given me

[PinkyandNoBrain]

I'm thinking that I could open up a church and steal money from people. Actually, I wouldn't have to steal. People would freely give in order to be in good standing with the church. I could use the name of God to increase the size of the Bobo Fund.

"God said to give 10%!"
"Give 10% brothers!"
"Buy your way to heaven, only 10%"
"If you don't contribute 10%, you're going to hell!"
"You are going to burn in hell if you don't fork out 10%"
"Give 10% to your brother!"
"For only 10%, you too can go to heaven"
"Give 10% or GTFO!"

[nrly in mesa]

how is giving freely what the Lord has asked us to give 10% stealing, now only someone with an evil mind would call it stealing...attacking us is uncalled for, we do not attack, unless we are pushed in a corner, as anyone would do we come out swinging, not fists but the truth, then you all tend to get your undies in a bunch when we defend the truth, and you can not stand it, because what we say and know does not change it is forever one eternal round...If you truly believe in the Savior and his teachings then you would not attack us, but accept his teachings with open arms,and that means accept us...why do some fall away, I feel it is because they were not converted fully, and lacked the strength and will power to over come bad habits, or even pressure of family and friends, it is easier to go with the flow, then to stand a little bit taller and say no I am not going to let you put me down, for I know what I know to be the truth, and then invite them to come and learn and listen, and join... we all have the right to choose, but I wonder what happens when we have known the truth and then attacked the truth, and then we have to stand before the Judgment bar, he will not except excuses from any of us...I can see it now some twisting their hands together saying well I was but then the devil made me do it, and woe unto them...makes me so sad when I read the degrading posts, because none of you know what you are talking about, you just listen to anti's garbage, spew hate, and allow it to take over you life...man og man, it is sad, Pahoran, Hannah thank you for your voices... I am so tankful to be a member of his one and only true Church, that it has been re-established here upon this earth once again, and to know I belong to an eternal family...and if I do all that I can, and endure to the end remain faithful, I will live with him again one day...not only by how I live here, but by his grace, he is my advocate with my Father...

[blackbirdxx]

Pahoran wrote:

<quoted text>
That's not logic, that's optimism. Everyone hopes that, every election.
The problem is that government -- especially democratic government -- is *essentially* inefficient. And it may well be better that way. The most efficient government model is an absolute monarchy, or something equally autocratic. And while there have in times past been good kings and benevolent despots, life under such governments can be pretty unpleasant -- or worse, short.
<quoted text>
Actually a little common sense might show you that the Church is less like a corporation than it is like a small country; but it's got no borders, so it doesn't have to maintain an army or a navy. It is without many of the costs of government. In particular, it doesn't have to manage a national economy. OTOH, neither can it increase the "tax" rate to fund a spending splurge, as regular governments can. People love to sneer about tithing, but it's fully biblical -- and the rate is fixed. The Church's financial management has simply *had* to be prudent.
Which is probably the *real* key to the Church's financial success.
I know; conspiracy theories are *much* more fun.
<quoted text>
Well there's the thing, you see; the polygamists have nothing to do with us. They are independent organisations, with their own leadership groups. There is a historical link, but not an organisational one.
<quoted text>
I agree with you; it's disgusting to see those guys milking the system. There are other guys much closer to me who do the same, entirely sans polygamy. I have a standing joke I use when people ask me if I have Sky, the local pay TV service: "I can't afford Sky, I'm not on the dole."
Milking government welfare is not unique to polygamists; it is common among people who see themselves on the fringes of normal society.
Unlike real Mormons.
Regards,
Pahoran

Oh no..dude..don't start agreeing with me..you will put me to sleep!

[PinkyandNoBrain]

Alright guys. Stop poking this blog in the ribs. God said this is good and we should respect that. I wonder who talked to God. We just don't know the truth. We haven't seen the light.

I know a couple of moromons who like beer, coffee, women, etc. Is this normal? They claim that they are Jack mormons. They are fun people though.

Chill out Nrly in Mesa. People will poke your ribs just to see if you are alive or simply following.

You are free to build and give as much as you feel you need to.

Peace!

[Dan Dougherty]

"The Religion of Nimrod" @ www.scribd.com

[Don Joe]

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
blackbirdxx,
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were different...but you are another putz just like CIB. Your hatred has made you a mean little man. No Mormon has hurt you and for you to attack us is reprehensible. I tried to be kind to you and to be a friend and all I got is a lot of jabbs from you. Why don't you grow up and be a real human being for a change.

No Mormon has hurt you?

Have you forgotten the help the church gave to bush? The damage bush has done to the world? Perhaps you don't think that those innocents who died because of bush matter. They were not like us anyway.

If 90% of the members were raging alcoholics you would not expect the prophet to endorse alcoholic beverages, yet 90% are republican and the prophet does endorse the republicans. Being a republican does more damage than alcohol any day.

[blackbirdxx]

Don Joe wrote:

<quoted text>
No Mormon has hurt you?
Have you forgotten the help the church gave to bush? The damage bush has done to the world? Perhaps you don't think that those innocents who died because of bush matter. They were not like us anyway.
If 90% of the members were raging alcoholics you would not expect the prophet to endorse alcoholic beverages, yet 90% are republican and the prophet does endorse the republicans. Being a republican does more damage than alcohol any day.

i think she feels persecuted..sometimes people have trouble tellin the difference between criticism and persecution..........

I think if somebody can't deal with some flack over something they truly believe in, either they need to find a different group of people to hang with, or as in this situation....soooo many people
saying the same thing...over and over....it might be a good idea for that person to step back and try take an objective point of view, and figure out why so many people have the same kind of issues....
And i know it is difficult for some people to do it, but standing in the shoes of another person can solve many problems with very little effort.