Empty sacred spaces become white elephants

Aug 19, 2012 | Posted by: Joe DeCaro | Full story: www.virtueonline.org

Hunger, health care, and urban violence are the usual subjects of concern when the Religious Leaders Council of Greater Philadelphia gathers for its semiannual meetings.

But at the spring 2011 session, a new topic was cast into the mix: real estate ...

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“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

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#1
Aug 19, 2012
 

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from virtueonline:

"In the Episcopal Diocese of Pennsylvania, comprising Philadelphia and the four suburban counties, there are nine closed churches. Each costs an annual average of $55,000 to maintain.

"'That's nearly half a million dollars we're not putting toward meeting human needs,' said Bennison.'God must look down and say,'Where's the gospel in this?'"

God's Gospel wasn't in those nine Episcopal churches, which is why their congregations left and why they are now just expensive overhead, no thanks to the return of Bishop Bennison.
Listen to the Word

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Aug 19, 2012
 

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If Bennison and the TEC mafia allowed the gospel, the churches would be in use by TEC members -- paying for themselves and for TEC expenses. However, instead of the gospel, the best TEC can come up with is liberal, politically correct social activism. Any and every church will eventually die out with such a "growth by decline" approach. It is amazing that TEC leaders can continually shoot their denomination in the foot and remain clueless why it hurts.

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Aug 20, 2012
 

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Posts #1 & #2 above are pure malarky!

This from the Virtueonline article:

"See that rope?" Howard Cottman asked, pointing to the slender spire of New Life Evangelistic Church in Philadelphia's Fairhill section.

"That's where we caught the guy."

Built in 1889 as St. Bonaventura Roman Catholic parish, the stone church looks from a distance like a storybook castle rising above the treetops.

Up close, it's a ruin.

Thieves - including the man whom the 21-year-old Cottman and some other neighbors caught swinging from the steeple three years ago - have torn most of the copper cladding from the second, or clerestory, level.

Today, its timbers are exposed and rotting. The large, stained-glass windows are beginning to collapse. Holes pierce the steeple's slate, and heaps of plaster and debris litter the long-locked vestibule below.

Founded to serve German immigrants, St. Bonaventura was among 14 urban parishes that Cardinal Anthony J. Bevilacqua shuttered in 1993. A year later, it was bought for $110,000 by the New Life Evangelistic Fellowship of Paterson, N.J., but it has been abandoned for nearly a decade, neighbors say.

Bishop Carswell Jackson, pastor of New Life, did not return requests for comment.

The market for vacant Catholic and mainline Protestant churches is made up mostly of fledgling congregations. Many, like New Life Evangelistic, quickly find themselves socked with maintenance bills, and in over their heads.

Kenneth McIlvane, a Deptford, N.J., real estate broker who handles many of the parish property sales in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Camden, N.J, said the inquiries he gets typically are from "startup churches with little or no financial backing." But he also receives calls from "well-qualified religious organizations looking to expand their ministries."

In the months ahead, he may have more buildings on his hands than he knows what to do with.

In 2008, Camden Bishop Joseph Galante announced the most sweeping parish consolidation of any Catholic diocese in the United States. By its conclusion early this year, 32 parishes were left; 92 others were dissolved into 38."

It is happening in all kinds of Churches.

“... truth will out.”

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Aug 20, 2012
 

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RevKen wrote:
... It is happening in all kinds of Churches.
To include TEC, which, as the smallest mainline denom, will be hit the hardest as nearly half its membership has left for more orthodox Anglicanism.

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Aug 20, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
To include TEC, which, as the smallest mainline denom, will be hit the hardest as nearly half its membership has left for more orthodox Anglicanism.
LOL!!!....

Of course you can include TEC, if you like. You seem to think that it matters that we should be included in your assessments. I don't. I don't think your assessments are valid.

Anyway, most of the members that we have been losing are people who are not comfortable letting go of their [previously] institutionalized hypocritical and bigoted doctrines. If you want these doctrines and views to be labeled "orthodox Anglicanism," go ahead, label them as such. But, that does not change the fact that the doctrine has been realized to be hypocritical and bigoted.

That's what this is all about, ya know? Jesus taught that we must set aside these hypocritical and bigoted views. Then, for two thousand years, the followers of Christ worked as hard as they could to cover over His teachings, only to have them rise up out of their control in the latter half of the 20th Century.

Seems that the "Truth will out." I've seen this saying somewhere, recently.

Too bad. If you don't cotton to the truth.

Rev. Ken

“... truth will out.”

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Aug 20, 2012
 

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RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!....
Of course you can include TEC, if you like. You seem to think that it matters that we should be included in your assessments ...
The story, along with its "assessments," are By DAVID O'REILLY of
The Philadelphia Inquirer.

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#7
Aug 21, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
The story, along with its "assessments," are By DAVID O'REILLY of
The Philadelphia Inquirer.
The story was posted on Virtueonline, david Virtue's blog and your favorite site for lifting material to back your anti-Episcopalian views.

Of the 300 or so closed and empty churches in the Philadelphia area, the article quotes Episcopal Bishop Bennigan as reporting nine are Episcopal churches, costing the Diocese about $55,000 each, annually. That is a lot of money that obviously could be put to use in other ways, more effectively supporting the general ministry mission.

The glutted market is almost exclusively Protestant and Catholic, driven by trends both secular and spiritual.

From the VOL article:
"Young adults attend worship services less often and contribute less money than their elders. In the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia, which has closed dozens of parishes in the past 20 years and nine this year, weekly Sunday Mass attendance is about 18 percent, a quarter of what it was two generations ago."

What you wrote, "Boom Boom" DeCaro, is skewed to make TEC look bad. But, outside of the ongoing internal dissent about women's ordination to the priesthood and the subsequent removals of hypocritical biases against homosexuals in our Church, our member participation doesn't look much different than or from most other Protestant or Catholic churches.

The overall aspects of membership decline and the cost of maintaining empty or excess real estate is affecting nearly all denominations, large and small.

Evangelical megachurches seem to be doing fine. Are these a fad, of sorts? Don't know yet. They've only really taken hold over the last 20 years or so and their membership is not solely at the expense of other, older Christian denominations.

So, you are full of malarky, "Boom Boom."

The real estate problems, although a significant concern, are not defining the Gospel. They are simply opportunities for someone.

Rev. Ken

“... truth will out.”

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#8
Aug 21, 2012
 
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
The story was posted on Virtueonline, david Virtue's blog and your favorite site ...
... but it was written By DAVID O'REILLY of The Philadelphia Inquirer.

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#9
Aug 21, 2012
 
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
... but it was written By DAVID O'REILLY of The Philadelphia Inquirer.
Excuse me, Joe.

What is your point?

“... truth will out.”

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#10
Aug 22, 2012
 
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Excuse me, Joe.
What is your point?
I have two points: that David Virtue didn't write this story, and that you are clueless.

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#11
Aug 22, 2012
 
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
I have two points: that David Virtue didn't write this story, and that you are clueless.
Well, if that is all that you are saying by posting this VirtueOnline clipping..

You sure are wasting your time.

DV wanted to make a big deal out of the fact that 9 of 300 closed churches in the Philadelphia area are Episcopal Church properties.

So?

I read the article. What about it? The statistics are probably reported correctly. The quotes are probably reported correctly. Empty real estate in an area generally hurting under a protracted national recession, no matter who owns it, is expensive to maintain.

So what? Clueless or not, everybody knows that.

If these statistics and this article clipped by Virtue and repeated by you are supposed to make me clueless....

Well, LOL!!!... I guess they do, because I don't see or understand your point here.

Care to restate it?

Rev. Ken

“... truth will out.”

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Aug 22, 2012
 

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RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, if that is all that you are saying by posting this VirtueOnline clipping..
You sure are wasting your time ...
... even if that was true, which it isn't, it's still my time to waste.

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#13
Aug 23, 2012
 
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
... even if that was true, which it isn't, it's still my time to waste.
LOL!!!... Well, yes. It is true. You tried to showcase the material as an insult to TEC.

Hey, Einstein! You are the one who said you posted the material to make me look like an idiot. But, since you posted idiotic material with the idea that it would make someone look like an idiot,...
the thing boomeranged on you, "Boom Boom" DeCaro, instead.

Go ahead. Be our guest. Waste your time all you want.

Re. Ken

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

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#14
Aug 23, 2012
 
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!... Well, yes. It is true. You tried to showcase the material as an insult to TEC.
Hey, Einstein! You are the one who said you posted the material to make me look like an idiot. But, since you posted idiotic material with the idea that it would make someone look like an idiot,...
the thing boomeranged on you, "Boom Boom" DeCaro, instead.
Go ahead. Be our guest. Waste your time all you want.
Re. Ken
He just doesn't get the buried talent story....

“... truth will out.”

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#15
Aug 23, 2012
 
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!... Well, yes. It is true. You tried to showcase the material as an insult to TEC ...
How can you insult a denomination already in self-destruct mode?

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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#16
Aug 24, 2012
 
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you insult a denomination already in self-destruct mode?
Well, boom boom, I suppose you're talking about the romans. I mean they are closing churches left and right to pay for hidden sexual abuse, hidden by the 'good' bishops with at least ONE headed to court...

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Aug 24, 2012
 

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MiddleWay wrote:
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Well, boom boom, I suppose you're talking about the romans. I mean they are closing churches left and right to pay for hidden sexual abuse, hidden by the 'good' bishops with at least ONE headed to court...
Yeah.

"Boom Boom" DeCaro, the Roman Catholic pugilist.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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#18
Aug 24, 2012
 
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah.
"Boom Boom" DeCaro, the Roman Catholic pugilist.
LOL!

Flying coffee and worth every spit drop!

“... truth will out.”

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#19
Aug 24, 2012
 
MiddleWay wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, boom boom, I suppose you're talking about the romans ...
You suppose wrong; this is the Topix TEC forum.

“Ecce! Sic transit gloria mundi”

Since: Oct 10

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Aug 24, 2012
 

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Why is Joe aka Nemo so concerned with materialism? He really thinks that that golden calf is a god. Poor baby.

Has the man failed to notice the demographic changes that have occurred in the US over the last 50 years?

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