The semantic war over "entitlements."

The semantic war over "entitlements."

There are 60 comments on the www.newyorker.com story from Apr 1, 2013, titled The semantic war over "entitlements.". In it, www.newyorker.com reports that:

Names make news, an old newsroom motto has it. But names also make opinions. What something gets called can have more spin on it than a Mariano Rivera cutter, whether the person doing the calling intends it that way or not.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.newyorker.com.

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Don Joe

Saint Paul, MN

#43 Apr 3, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
This here deserves special mention. Calling America's middle class impoverished is at best laughable, and at worst insulting to the majority of the world's inhabitants who are truly impoverished. The hyperbole badly weakens your arguments.
Why can't those darn liberals just cast a blind eye to the middle class and let the lazy loafers collect their "dividends" in peace. Why should the rich just let the middle class have some of the wealth the middle class created? The rich bought enough congressmen to write the laws so they get all the money. If the middle class wanted some money they could have bought a few congressmen to throw them a bone once in a while.

So the middle class cannot obtain decent health care, secure shelter, a decent job, provide for an adequate education for their children, ever go on vacations, they still have a better life than those in Somalia. Just wait, soon they will be on par with the Somalians and will miss the good old days.
XDR

Miami, FL

#44 Apr 3, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
Why can't those darn liberals just cast a blind eye to the middle class and let the lazy loafers collect their "dividends" in peace. Why should the rich just let the middle class have some of the wealth the middle class created? The rich bought enough congressmen to write the laws so they get all the money. If the middle class wanted some money they could have bought a few congressmen to throw them a bone once in a while.
So the middle class cannot obtain decent health care, secure shelter, a decent job, provide for an adequate education for their children, ever go on vacations, they still have a better life than those in Somalia. Just wait, soon they will be on par with the Somalians and will miss the good old days.
You should be a writer for a daytime soap opera. You're great at writing dramas.
Don Joe

Saint Paul, MN

#45 Apr 3, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
... I don't think you realize how much more the wealthy would really be paying without writeoffs. Some middle class would too, while other middle class would be paying less.
Very few realize how much more the wealthy would really be paying without the tax loopholes. The answer is almost nothing. Why? because they would simply divert income. Instead of taking the dollars tax free and hiding it in some foreign bank account, they would invest the money in their own companies, and thus never see the income, but they would be spending it anyway. The difference is that they would be hiring more people, growing their companies domestically, earning even more money for further growth. The rich would get richer, the middle class would get jobs, and with all the jobs, welfare would be reduced; government spending would be reduced and revenue would increase taking down the GOP federal debt.

So the bottom line is, increase the rates for the rich. The rich won't pay any more, but it gets rid of the deficits and the debt.

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#46 Apr 3, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
You missed my "see above"....flat tax with ALL deductions eliminated/loopholes closed, meaning no capital gains rates, no writeoffs, etc.
"A flat tax isn't fair: 10 percent of income at the bottom isn't equal to 10 percent of income at the top."--true, 10% of $1Million is far more money than 10% of $50K, so the rich are still paying more. LOL, of course, that's not what you meant. But there could be an exemption for incomes under $20K/person and $30K/household from the income tax. I don't think you realize how much more the wealthy would really be paying without writeoffs. Some middle class would too, while other middle class would be paying less.
You miss reality. If you think any billionaire or millionaire is going to support a flat tax that includes their investment income and estates, show me the first and only one that supports it.
XDR

Miami, FL

#47 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>You miss reality. If you think any billionaire or millionaire is going to support a flat tax that includes their investment income and estates, show me the first and only one that supports it.
Show me a middle class person that would support it...paying the same rate as the wealthy, no mortgage writeoff or kiddie deductions. You somehow missed how I said this and the VAT aren't likely to happen. This is all hypothetical, not reality.
XDR

Miami, FL

#48 Apr 5, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
Very few realize how much more the wealthy would really be paying without the tax loopholes. The answer is almost nothing. Why? because they would simply divert income. Instead of taking the dollars tax free and hiding it in some foreign bank account, they would invest the money in their own companies, and thus never see the income, but they would be spending it anyway. The difference is that they would be hiring more people, growing their companies domestically, earning even more money for further growth. The rich would get richer, the middle class would get jobs, and with all the jobs, welfare would be reduced; government spending would be reduced and revenue would increase taking down the GOP federal debt.
So the bottom line is, increase the rates for the rich. The rich won't pay any more, but it gets rid of the deficits and the debt.
Increasing tax rates without establishing a minimum effective tax rate (what is REALLY paid) would lead you back to square one.

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#49 Apr 5, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
Show me a middle class person that would support it...paying the same rate as the wealthy, no mortgage writeoff or kiddie deductions. You somehow missed how I said this and the VAT aren't likely to happen. This is all hypothetical, not reality.
No middle class person with a modicum of intelligence is going to support a flat tax. And since it's hypothetical in your terms, why did you bring it up in the first place?
serfs up

Merritt Island, FL

#50 Apr 5, 2013
There are so many variables it is not funny. Do not reward for irresponsible behavior. That would eliminate many problems. Change work rules to sanity and equalize them on both public and private sides. Eliminate control of areas/regions/local jurisdictions of trade unions stranglehold on private and public infrastructure improvements and new construction. Finally have tort reform. Work to narrow the wage disparity in our job markets to common sense levels even if it means increasing taxes on the rich who got that way not by the old standards. Job producers who became rich and not fiat currency parasites who became rich should be rewarded and taxed by their actions. Just some changes to improve our way of life.
XDR

Miami, FL

#51 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>No middle class person with a modicum of intelligence is going to support a flat tax. And since it's hypothetical in your terms, why did you bring it up in the first place?
Because:
1) It's more fair than the current system, despite the fact that many (ahem) are blinded by class warfare and demanding higher marginal rates on the rich that they don't realize that they still have ways available to pay less than you do. Quiet the sheep with higher marginal rates while providing loopholes to never really pay those higher rates is the way of the progressive tax system we have now. The current tax system also punishes middle class people without a mortgage or kids...something that's often overlooked.

2) It's vastly more efficient to implement and collect taxes...hours spent collecting receipts, working on forms, dealing with CPAs, tax preparation services in strip malls, the bloated IRS...all gone. That alone is worth alot.

Like I've said multiple times before, I much prefer a VAT over any form of income tax, including a flat tax.

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#52 Apr 5, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
Because:
1) It's more fair than the current system, despite the fact that many (ahem) are blinded by class warfare and demanding higher marginal rates on the rich that they don't realize that they still have ways available to pay less than you do. Quiet the sheep with higher marginal rates while providing loopholes to never really pay those higher rates is the way of the progressive tax system we have now. The current tax system also punishes middle class people without a mortgage or kids...something that's often overlooked.
2) It's vastly more efficient to implement and collect taxes...hours spent collecting receipts, working on forms, dealing with CPAs, tax preparation services in strip malls, the bloated IRS...all gone. That alone is worth alot.
Like I've said multiple times before, I much prefer a VAT over any form of income tax, including a flat tax.
It's all hypothetical, remember? No one cares if you prefer a VAT. And if you do, move to the EU, that's what they have.
XDR

Miami, FL

#54 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>It's all hypothetical, remember? No one cares if you prefer a VAT. And if you do, move to the EU, that's what they have.
...and if you prefer wealth redistribution via taxation, you can move your own ass to Eurpoe. We'll stay here in the good ol' USA and try to keep the Socialist pigs at bay. I'll even help you pack your trailer.
XDR

Miami, FL

#55 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>It's all hypothetical, remember? No one cares if you prefer a VAT. And if you do, move to the EU, that's what they have.
I'm looking for taxation fairness. You're looking for wealth redistribution. Two entirely different goals. Get it?

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#56 Apr 5, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm looking for taxation fairness. You're looking for wealth redistribution. Two entirely different goals. Get it?
Here we go again. A flat tax is not a fair tax. I already pointed that out to your VAT filled head. Get it?
XDR

Miami, FL

#57 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>Here we go again. A flat tax is not a fair tax. I already pointed that out to your VAT filled head. Get it?
You can "point out" whatever the heck you want. Getting me to buy into it is a whole other story. Get it?

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#58 Apr 5, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
You can "point out" whatever the heck you want. Getting me to buy into it is a whole other story. Get it?
I don't care what you buy into or don't, get it? And get this, there ain't no flat tax and there ain't no VAT. And there won't be.
XDR

Miami, FL

#59 Apr 5, 2013
Mykro wrote:
<quoted text>I don't care what you buy into or don't, get it? And get this, there ain't no flat tax and there ain't no VAT. And there won't be.
LOL, I NEVER ever said there was or would be, get it? I stated it would likely NEVER HAPPEN. I've been clear about that all throught this thread that this was my wishful thinking for greater fairness. How obtuse can you be? You want a crayon diagram?

Nothing you care about is likely to happen either. The rich and the politicians will always find ways to outsmart people like you. It ain't that hard.
Don Joe

Saint Paul, MN

#60 Apr 5, 2013
serfs up wrote:
There are so many variables it is not funny. Do not reward for irresponsible behavior. That would eliminate many problems. Change work rules to sanity and equalize them on both public and private sides. Eliminate control of areas/regions/local jurisdictions of trade unions stranglehold on private and public infrastructure improvements and new construction. Finally have tort reform. Work to narrow the wage disparity in our job markets to common sense levels even if it means increasing taxes on the rich who got that way not by the old standards. Job producers who became rich and not fiat currency parasites who became rich should be rewarded and taxed by their actions. Just some changes to improve our way of life.
In one sense I can mostly agree, but the exact implementation might be quite different. For example, you call for tort reform, and I agree. It needs to be much easier and there should be justice for all, not just for those who can afford the best lawyers. I suspect you want more protections for corporations.

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#61 Apr 5, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, I NEVER ever said there was or would be, get it? I stated it would likely NEVER HAPPEN. I've been clear about that all throught this thread that this was my wishful thinking for greater fairness. How obtuse can you be? You want a crayon diagram?
Nothing you care about is likely to happen either. The rich and the politicians will always find ways to outsmart people like you. It ain't that hard.
A Kock Bros puppet lecturing me on fairness. Frightwingnut fantasy fairness.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#62 Apr 5, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
In one sense I can mostly agree, but the exact implementation might be quite different. For example, you call for tort reform, and I agree. It needs to be much easier and there should be justice for all, not just for those who can afford the best lawyers. I suspect you want more protections for corporations.
At the risk of exposing my true conservative roots, I again propose a substantial import tariff on all manufactured goods.
Don Joe

Saint Paul, MN

#63 Apr 12, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
At the risk of exposing my true conservative roots, I again propose a substantial import tariff on all manufactured goods.
I agree.

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