The semantic war over "entitlements."

Apr 1, 2013 Full story: www.newyorker.com 60

Names make news, an old newsroom motto has it. But names also make opinions. What something gets called can have more spin on it than a Mariano Rivera cutter, whether the person doing the calling intends it that way or not.

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Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#2 Apr 1, 2013
The GOP is demanding we think of all the money we paid into our retirement accounts as welfare. They keep telling us that money rightfully belongs to a few rich guys and we should be happy to just let them have all our money. They call Social Security an entitlement, even after we have been paying into it for 50 years.

Next they will tell us that even though we have car insurance, no insurer will ever have to pay for anything, because the money you paid in premiums is their money and you are not entitled to anything. It's your fault you were in an accident so why should they have to pay?

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#3 Apr 1, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
The GOP is demanding we think of all the money we paid into our retirement accounts as welfare. They keep telling us that money rightfully belongs to a few rich guys and we should be happy to just let them have all our money. They call Social Security an entitlement, even after we have been paying into it for 50 years.
Next they will tell us that even though we have car insurance, no insurer will ever have to pay for anything, because the money you paid in premiums is their money and you are not entitled to anything. It's your fault you were in an accident so why should they have to pay?
The real "ENTITLEMENTS" are the loopholes and exemptions bought by the very rich and corporations, and inserted into the tax code.

The BIGGEST entitlement in the country is the
CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATE.
Cat74

Mchenry, IL

#5 Apr 1, 2013
When did the GOP say the money you paid into your retirement is welfare? You are a little mixed up. It is the Democrats that want your Social Security, or any other money you have to buy freebies for their non productive people.

Since: Jan 13

Worcester, MA

#6 Apr 1, 2013
The biggest entitlements in this country are welfare and everything else that goes along with it. Free medical,free cell phones,free food all for the people who Don't want to work even if they are able to. B.S.
XDR

Miami, FL

#7 Apr 2, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
The real "ENTITLEMENTS" are the loopholes and exemptions bought by the very rich and corporations, and inserted into the tax code.
The BIGGEST entitlement in the country is the
CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATE.
Careful there--plenty of middle class folks like myself benefit nicely from capital gains tax rates. And why shouldn't we--the money we invested was already taxed at the full income rate before when we earned it.

Now, should there be a minimum effective tax rate on the wealthy so that they do not end up paying a lower effective rate than someone making $40K/yr? Of course. That is just common sense. That can be accomplished without abolishing capital gains tax rates.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#8 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
Careful there--plenty of middle class folks like myself benefit nicely from capital gains tax rates. And why shouldn't we--the money we invested was already taxed at the full income rate before when we earned it.
Now, should there be a minimum effective tax rate on the wealthy so that they do not end up paying a lower effective rate than someone making $40K/yr? Of course. That is just common sense. That can be accomplished without abolishing capital gains tax rates.
Right. Sure.
The one-time capital gains on primary residence catches about 98% of middle-class worries.

If you have worries about capital gains tax hitting your regular income stream, then...

(You are not middle class, Mitt.)

Yet, a minimum income tax is a good idea, but unlikely to get passed by this congress, owned as they are by the Koch brothers.
XDR

Miami, FL

#9 Apr 2, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
Right. Sure.
The one-time capital gains on primary residence catches about 98% of middle-class worries.
If you have worries about capital gains tax hitting your regular income stream, then...
(You are not middle class, Mitt.)
Yet, a minimum income tax is a good idea, but unlikely to get passed by this congress, owned as they are by the Koch brothers.
Hey, not my fault you and some others don't bother to save and invest. I have bothered and I sure don't want to pay higher capital gains taxes on my investments, period. Make sure that the wealthy AND the poor pay at least something in net income taxes. Cut spending as well.

Keep living paycheck to paycheck spending all your money on crap consumer goods you don't need--the S&P 500 companies I invest in need good sheeple consumers. Consume and Reproduce, baby! It's the American Way. Don't bother to think outside the box and question society's normative cues---it'll make your head hurt.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#10 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, not my fault you and some others don't bother to save and invest. I have bothered and I sure don't want to pay higher capital gains taxes on my investments, period. Make sure that the wealthy AND the poor pay at least something in net income taxes. Cut spending as well.
Keep living paycheck to paycheck spending all your money on crap consumer goods you don't need--the S&P 500 companies I invest in need good sheeple consumers. Consume and Reproduce, baby! It's the American Way. Don't bother to think outside the box and question society's normative cues---it'll make your head hurt.
Don't make assumptions.
And I agree that too many Americans are living like grasshoppers rather than ants.
I compliment you on your savings; but they take you out of the middle class if you are materially affected by change in the capital gains tax rate.

After the desert of the GW Bush years, my various 401k funds in Fidelity have CAUGHT FIRE!
And I do volunteer work for fun.
Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#11 Apr 2, 2013
Cat74 wrote:
When did the GOP say the money you paid into your retirement is welfare? You are a little mixed up. It is the Democrats that want your Social Security, or any other money you have to buy freebies for their non productive people.
You call yourself a republican and you don't have a clue to one of the main planks of the platform. The GOP has repeatedly stated they want to "privatize" social security, so that all of the money is given to investment firms so they get all the money and you get nothing. The democrats have not caved to that particular republican demand yet.
Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#12 Apr 2, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
The real "ENTITLEMENTS" are the loopholes and exemptions bought by the very rich and corporations, and inserted into the tax code.
The BIGGEST entitlement in the country is the
CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATE.
Certainly that is a giant entitlement, but that is not how the media uses the term, nor how it is used by those who believe the media. The media and as evidenced by other posters on this thread, use the term to demean those who have been harmed by the attacks on the middle class and have lost their jobs and rely on unemployment till another job opens up.

I would suggest that there are other entitlements the very rich take advantage of as well. For example, the rich also inserted into law that they get massive amounts of direct support. The no-bid contracts where Haliburton got billions of dollars for nothing is just one example. The federal banks that get trillions of dollars from nothing is an even bigger example.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#13 Apr 2, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
Certainly that is a giant entitlement, but that is not how the media uses the term, nor how it is used by those who believe the media. The media and as evidenced by other posters on this thread, use the term to demean those who have been harmed by the attacks on the middle class and have lost their jobs and rely on unemployment till another job opens up.
I would suggest that there are other entitlements the very rich take advantage of as well. For example, the rich also inserted into law that they get massive amounts of direct support. The no-bid contracts where Haliburton got billions of dollars for nothing is just one example. The federal banks that get trillions of dollars from nothing is an even bigger example.
The "media": which is a tool of very large, very conservative corporations who convince the tadpoles who consume it that their voice is a 'liberall press;' are heavilly engaged in rebranding.

What 'the media' calls 'entitlements' are accounts I've been paying into for more than 50 years, with no return yet. Social Security is my main entitlement, and in due time, Medicaide/medicare. These are not things I feel "entitled to" because they are there; but I am entitled because I have paid and paid into them.

I am 'entitled' to my SS in the same way a person who buys a new car is 'entitled' to drive it home.
The artificially low 'capital gains tax rate' is a true, unearned entitlement.

I still can hear GW Bush defending it in my head, saying that if thr rich don't get this special tax rate, they won't invest their money creating jobs.
To this, I scoff, "What, will they go to work instead?" "Dig ditches, wait tables, nail up siduing, plow fields, rather than collect on stock dividends and appreciation?

Right.
XDR

Miami, FL

#14 Apr 2, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't make assumptions.
And I agree that too many Americans are living like grasshoppers rather than ants.
I compliment you on your savings; but they take you out of the middle class if you are materially affected by change in the capital gains tax rate.
After the desert of the GW Bush years, my various 401k funds in Fidelity have CAUGHT FIRE!
And I do volunteer work for fun.
"Materially affected"???....who judges what is "materially affected"? And why be affected at all? There's plenty of other ways to balance the budget besides confiscating more from industrious middle class investors.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#15 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
"Materially affected"???....who judges what is "materially affected"? And why be affected at all? There's plenty of other ways to balance the budget besides confiscating more from industrious middle class investors.
Definition, definition definition; hard to get away from the meaning of words.
Wnat less taxes?
Buy Treasury bonds!

Happy now?
XDR

Miami, FL

#16 Apr 2, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
Definition, definition definition; hard to get away from the meaning of words.
Wnat less taxes?
Buy Treasury bonds!
Happy now?
No, not at all. T-Bond yields suck and their prices are likely in a bubble. I'd rather see spending cuts and entitlement reform instead of higher cap gains taxes.

Since: Feb 08

Hypoluxo Fl

#17 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
No, not at all. T-Bond yields suck and their prices are likely in a bubble. I'd rather see spending cuts and entitlement reform instead of higher cap gains taxes.
You mean like doing away with oil subsidies and sugar price supports?

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#18 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
No, not at all. T-Bond yields suck and their prices are likely in a bubble. I'd rather see spending cuts and entitlement reform instead of higher cap gains taxes.
What CUTS?
What ENTITLEMENT?
What REFORM?

I would detail a working group to review all SSI/SSD dependants, nationwide, using strict, universal, but fair criteria.

I already told you, the most abusive entitlement is CAPITAL GAINS TAX TO LOW.
Another? the estate tax must be restored.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#19 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
No, not at all. T-Bond yields suck and their prices are likely in a bubble. I'd rather see spending cuts and entitlement reform instead of higher cap gains taxes.
Then, I would detail another group to add up all federal disbursement and spending, in each state, by state.

I would have the compare that with how much money comes into the Treasury from each state, by state.

I would cut Federal spending in every state that gets back more than they send in.
Than money goes to pay down the Natinal debt.
Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#20 Apr 2, 2013
XDR wrote:
<quoted text>
No, not at all. T-Bond yields suck and their prices are likely in a bubble. I'd rather see spending cuts and entitlement reform instead of higher cap gains taxes.
Spending cuts and entitlement reforms. I would spend less by giving less of our wealth to the rich. That should count as spending cuts. Why give Haliburton billions of dollars in no bid contracts when they can't do anything?

Entitlement reforms should come in the form of removing all the special loopholes the rich are not entitled to. If there are to be tax loopholes, they should be for everyone. The rich are not entitled to such special privileges.
XDR

Miami, FL

#21 Apr 3, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
What CUTS?
What ENTITLEMENT?
What REFORM?
I would detail a working group to review all SSI/SSD dependants, nationwide, using strict, universal, but fair criteria.
I already told you, the most abusive entitlement is CAPITAL GAINS TAX TO LOW.
Another? the estate tax must be restored.
That's nice populist talk--"me's got no investments and got no estate to tax so tax dem dar rich people cause they's gots $$". It'll make the mouth breathers feel better. That also won't do jack to help balance the budget long term.
XDR

Miami, FL

#22 Apr 3, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
I would cut Federal spending in every state that gets back more than they send in.
Than money goes to pay down the Natinal debt.
That's actually a good idea.

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