Thieves take controversial Mojave Desert cross

May 12, 2010 Full story: Nevada Appeal 37

This undated photo taken by Henry and Wanda Sandoz and made available Wednesday, Oct.

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Duck and Cover

Saint Augustine, FL

#22 May 16, 2010
I fail to see how a cross, in any way, offers an educational opportunity to learn about the brutality of war.

Semiotically, a cross is considered to be an arbitrary, unmotivated sign whose referent, or ‘signified’ has to be learned by convention through social or cultural means. And what has been ‘learned’ across virtually all civilized cultures and social groups is that a cross is a sign--a ‘signifier’--that references Christianity--a ‘signified.’ It in no way suggests war, or especially, the brutality of war.

War memorials utilize signs like statues of soldiers or weaponry. They are icons which have a natural relationship between signifier and signified. The signs used in war memorials don’t signify Christianity or any other religion, and a cross doesn’t signify war.
For any casual, uninformed observer of the cross in the Mojave, the idea of it being a war memorial wouldn’t come to mind.

Denotatively, what’s in the Mojave Desert is “just a couple of pipes stuck in the ground,” configured to look somewhat like the letter “T.” But connotatively, that particular configuration is seen as a cross which signifies Christianity. Arguing that this cross means something else is baseless. For centuries it has been universally seen as a religious sign, and any attempt to change that would be impossible.

On that basis, I’d challenge Justice Kennedy’s assertion that the cross “evokes far more than religion,” and challenge him to argue that from an intellectual perspective, rather than from the emotional one that has dominated this case.
conaire

Fort Dodge, IA

#23 May 16, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
Why notify me? I have no interest in your monument building, as long as you abide by the law.
"Correct me if I'm wrong" you write. You don't really know anything about this, do you?
You seem to ask when the Mojave Preserve became a graveyard. You really don't know anything about this, do you?
Yet again you bob and weave shuck and jive.
You are a sad troll.
Later sweetheart.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#24 May 16, 2010
conaire wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet again you bob and weave shuck and jive.
You are a sad troll.
Later sweetheart.
I know the story and the status of the case. I know what exactly the Mojave Preserve is. I don't understand your silly questions since you don't seem to know anything about the matter, sweetie. Ciao.

Since: Oct 07

San Jose, Ca

#25 May 16, 2010
Stop the madness wrote:
<quoted text> The cross has been there since 1934--I would guess that this country was predominately Christian-no Muslims and very few athiests. Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is a solar cross? The theft of the cross was small-minded and dirty. I suspect it might have been done by people involved in the quest for it's removal.
The Solar Cross is a pagan symbol if I am not mistaken. You will see in many catholic churches as a cross with a circle behind it. The solar cross has all four limbs the same length. It was one of the thousand things the catholics copied/borrowed/stole as a way to try to bring the pagans into the church. Also look up Easter and Christmas.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#26 May 16, 2010
BuzzTick wrote:
<quoted text>
The Solar Cross is a pagan symbol if I am not mistaken. You will see in many catholic churches as a cross with a circle behind it. The solar cross has all four limbs the same length. It was one of the thousand things the catholics copied/borrowed/stole as a way to try to bring the pagans into the church. Also look up Easter and Christmas.
How very interesting. The cross in question was nothing like that. It was an oddly proportioned Latin cross made from some lengths of pipe. Otherwise you are correct. The early church borrowed freely from the customs of those they wished to attract, as the Church does today.

“Liberal Teachers ruin Kids”

Since: Mar 09

Paradise Valley Arizona

#27 May 16, 2010

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#28 May 16, 2010
Vance1 wrote:
I've read it. So what? This is about public lands.

“Liberal Teachers ruin Kids”

Since: Mar 09

Paradise Valley Arizona

#29 May 16, 2010
Liberals have been the demise of this country for many years now

Social- Security
Medicare
Welfare
Amnesty programs for illegal’s
Socializing America
Trying Terrorists in Criminal courts
They caused 911 by making this country weak
Liberal school teachers have ruined our children
NO or very little Border security
Trying to take WE the Peoples guns away.
Trying to take We the Peoples freedom of speech away
Forcing Liberal healthcare upon us
Forcing Amnesty for illegal’s upon us
Trying to force GAY marriage upon us
Taking in God we trust away.
Taking the Pledge of Allegiance away
Bad mouthing the New Tea Party movement
Tax and Spend, and over taxing and over spending
Not supporting our troops
Not building up our military
Giving huge handout to foreign countries
Forcing cap and tax upon us
Forcing American companies to leave our own country because they wouldn’t lower corporate taxes
They won’t lower estate taxes or capital gains taxes
Liberals are the feel sorry for everyone people.
They adore BIG Government entitlements
They won’t rest until America has been totally flushed down the toilet
yikes

Fort Dodge, IA

#30 May 16, 2010
Vance1 wrote:
Liberals have been the demise of this country for many years now
Social- Security
Medicare
Welfare
Amnesty programs for illegal’s
Socializing America
Trying Terrorists in Criminal courts
They caused 911 by making this country weak
Liberal school teachers have ruined our children
NO or very little Border security
Trying to take WE the Peoples guns away.
Trying to take We the Peoples freedom of speech away
Forcing Liberal healthcare upon us
Forcing Amnesty for illegal’s upon us
Trying to force GAY marriage upon us
Taking in God we trust away.
Taking the Pledge of Allegiance away
Bad mouthing the New Tea Party movement
Tax and Spend, and over taxing and over spending
Not supporting our troops
Not building up our military
Giving huge handout to foreign countries
Forcing cap and tax upon us
Forcing American companies to leave our own country because they wouldn’t lower corporate taxes
They won’t lower estate taxes or capital gains taxes
Liberals are the feel sorry for everyone people.
They adore BIG Government entitlements
They won’t rest until America has been totally flushed down the toilet
Its their toilet, we provide the water.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#31 May 17, 2010
Vance1 wrote:
Liberals have been the demise of this country for many years now
Social- Security
Medicare
Welfare
Amnesty programs for illegal’s
Socializing America
Trying Terrorists in Criminal courts
They caused 911 by making this country weak
Liberal school teachers have ruined our children
NO or very little Border security
Trying to take WE the Peoples guns away.
Trying to take We the Peoples freedom of speech away
Forcing Liberal healthcare upon us
Forcing Amnesty for illegal’s upon us
Trying to force GAY marriage upon us
Taking in God we trust away.
Taking the Pledge of Allegiance away
Bad mouthing the New Tea Party movement
Tax and Spend, and over taxing and over spending
Not supporting our troops
Not building up our military
Giving huge handout to foreign countries
Forcing cap and tax upon us
Forcing American companies to leave our own country because they wouldn’t lower corporate taxes
They won’t lower estate taxes or capital gains taxes
Liberals are the feel sorry for everyone people.
They adore BIG Government entitlements
They won’t rest until America has been totally flushed down the toilet
Demise means death. The nation is not dead so all that follows that premise is wrong. Since you are so unhappy with this country I suggest that you leave it at your earliest convenience. Find another one and they'll sell you a ticket there. You certainly don't want to live in a country where all these bad things happen. You certainly don't want to live in a country where teabaggers are "badmouthed." Oh, dear, oh, dear, all that naughty free speech is obviously a cross for you to bear, poor dear.
Mossad

Enfield, CT

#32 May 17, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
Demise means death. The nation is not dead so all that follows that premise is wrong. Since you are so unhappy with this country I suggest that you leave it at your earliest convenience. Find another one and they'll sell you a ticket there. You certainly don't want to live in a country where all these bad things happen. You certainly don't want to live in a country where teabaggers are "badmouthed." Oh, dear, oh, dear, all that naughty free speech is obviously a cross for you to bear, poor dear.
Well GOODNESS... aren't you the intellectual? Ivy League, by chance? Debate team?

Perhaps your talents would be better served in far more qualified locales, such as deflective legal arguments for the tobacco or petroleum industries. Yes, I think you'd do nicely there, provided they could pry your writings from your seemingly well manicured hands. After all, how could they not be infatuated with your superior insights formed in such remarkable sentence structures? Is ANY organization deserving of such expression? It's like waddling through a sewer for you, I would think. Thank you for your selfless act of sharing with us, sans compensation.

But, hopefully, we may cause you to refocus, if only for a moment. The subject matter is the vandalism of a cross. The symoblism it provides has become controversial in recent decades, and the theft is obvious in intent. Address, if you will, the obvious social contradictions of a subculture which defines itself as "free thinking" and "open minded" commiting such an act. How does "tolerance" fit into this act of thievery... an act of selfishness designed to cause anger and pain to others?

Or, perhaps, you can share with us your remarkably intellectual insights on how such hypocrisy stands against the much broader charge of socialism. Yes, I've just childishly expanded the picture. Is it fair to include these hate mongers among the broader picture of American liberalism? Do the tactics used in this instance sound familiar to the early days of the brown shirts? Why would this symbol cause such disdain to provoke illegal removal? Will there be an eventual night of the long knives? Should Poland be afraid?

As I await, notebook and pen in hand, I tremble at the prospect of your response...
Duck and Cover

Saint Augustine, FL

#33 May 17, 2010
Mossad wrote:
<quoted text>
…The subject matter is the vandalism of a cross. The symoblism it provides has become controversial in recent decades, and the theft is obvious in intent. Address, if you will, the obvious social contradictions of a subculture which defines itself as "free thinking" and "open minded" commiting such an act. How does "tolerance" fit into this act of thievery... an act of selfishness designed to cause anger and pain to others?
Or, perhaps, you can share with us your remarkably intellectual insights on how such hypocrisy stands against the much broader charge of socialism. Yes, I've just childishly expanded the picture. Is it fair to include these hate mongers among the broader picture of American liberalism? Do the tactics used in this instance sound familiar to the early days of the brown shirts? Why would this symbol cause such disdain to provoke illegal removal....?
May I assume that your outrage over “this act of thievery... an act of selfishness designed to cause anger and pain to others?” applies equally to this incident?
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-artic...

Are these ‘hate mongers’ also among the broader picture of American conservatism?
And just how does this act--assuming that it was committed by the conservative right, just as you have assumed that the cross was vandalized by the ‘free thinking and open minded’ subculture, neither of which has been proven--fit into the self proclaimed tolerance of religious right?

Unlike you, I won’t paint entire social groups with such broad strokes, believing instead that both of these acts are attributable to mindless individuals whose intolerance is their own.
But one thing is clear: The disdain that provoked the illegal removal of the cross goes both ways.
tatooedbag0shet

Downey, CA

#34 May 17, 2010
Is it still controversial now that the cross is gone?
Mossad

Enfield, CT

#35 May 17, 2010
Duck and Cover wrote:
<quoted text>
May I assume that your outrage over “this act of thievery... an act of selfishness designed to cause anger and pain to others?” applies equally to this incident?
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-artic...
Are these ‘hate mongers’ also among the broader picture of American conservatism?
And just how does this act--assuming that it was committed by the conservative right, just as you have assumed that the cross was vandalized by the ‘free thinking and open minded’ subculture, neither of which has been proven--fit into the self proclaimed tolerance of religious right?
Unlike you, I won’t paint entire social groups with such broad strokes, believing instead that both of these acts are attributable to mindless individuals whose intolerance is their own.
But one thing is clear: The disdain that provoked the illegal removal of the cross goes both ways.
But of course you would reply with a "they did it too" response.

Unlike you, I have the foresight to accept the broader spectrum of what's actually taking place here. Unlike others, I see an America that is becoming more deeply divided by the day. OF COURSE the cross was removed by atheists. OF COURSE the sign was damaged by Christians. Starting to catch on, or are you blinded by your self-rughteousness?

The point to be made is that those who claim tolerance are equally intolerant. each side is a mirror of the other... different message but same tactics.

Your "tit for tat" argument is dismissed on merit. The picture is far greater. Pick up the pace!!!
Duck and Cover

Saint Augustine, FL

#36 May 17, 2010
Mossad wrote:
<quoted text>
But of course you would reply with a "they did it too" response.
Unlike you, I have the foresight to accept the broader spectrum of what's actually taking place here. Unlike others, I see an America that is becoming more deeply divided by the day. OF COURSE the cross was removed by atheists. OF COURSE the sign was damaged by Christians. Starting to catch on, or are you blinded by your self-rughteousness?
The point to be made is that those who claim tolerance are equally intolerant. each side is a mirror of the other... different message but same tactics.
Your "tit for tat" argument is dismissed on merit. The picture is far greater. Pick up the pace!!!
My response was anything but a “they did it too.” In fact, I defended against that very assumption—an assumption you were quick to make. I said that neither side has been proven to have committed either act. It’s possible that either, or both acts were ‘inside jobs’ carried out in an attempt to discredit the other side. I can’t say one way or the other. And neither can you.
Only someone who is truly self-righteous, like you, and who would deign to make satements like “Unlike you, I have the foresight to accept the broader spectrum of what's actually taking place here. Unlike others, I see an America that is becoming more deeply divided by the day,” could fail to see my position as one of neutrality and fair-mindedness.
Your haughty declaration of a unique understanding “of what's actually taking place here,” if not fraught with self-righteousness, certainly smacks of conceit.

And again, you cast your broad net of overgeneralization when you proclaim that “those who claim tolerance are equally intolerant.” Your subjective pronouncements are not quite as pithy as you think they are.

While I’m inclined to agree that America is becoming more deeply divided, I disagree with what you seem to think is the cause.
The division isn’t caused by such acts of vandalism, but by the smug insistence that those who hold certain faith-based beliefs have an inherent right to have manifestations of those beliefs woven into secular fabric of this country.

Others, who are opposed to the display of this cross on public lands, have not sought to prohibit the free, unfettered practice of religion—any religion—by anyone. Charges to the contrary are simply not true. But given that freedom, practitioners should limit themselves to confining such practices and their related icons within their own tax-free venues.

When all Americans can pledge allegiance to their country without having to acknowledge someone else’s God, can spend money that isn’t emblazoned with Christian platitudes, and can use public lands and buildings that are free of religious icons, the divisiveness that now exists will cease.
Like Newton's Third Law, when religions stop pushing, secularists will stop resisting.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#37 May 17, 2010
tatooedbag0shet wrote:
Is it still controversial now that the cross is gone?
Well, there is someone here who understands, I see.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of the legal tussle over this cross now that it is gone. I believe that makes it moot. The las Vegas papers quote someone from the park service as saying that it is by no means certain that they will allow any sort of replacement to be erected.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#38 May 17, 2010
Mossad wrote:
<quoted text>
Well GOODNESS... aren't you the intellectual? Ivy League, by chance? Debate team?
Perhaps your talents would be better served in far more qualified locales, such as deflective legal arguments for the tobacco or petroleum industries. Yes, I think you'd do nicely there, provided they could pry your writings from your seemingly well manicured hands. After all, how could they not be infatuated with your superior insights formed in such remarkable sentence structures? Is ANY organization deserving of such expression? It's like waddling through a sewer for you, I would think. Thank you for your selfless act of sharing with us, sans compensation.
But, hopefully, we may cause you to refocus, if only for a moment. The subject matter is the vandalism of a cross. The symoblism it provides has become controversial in recent decades, and the theft is obvious in intent. Address, if you will, the obvious social contradictions of a subculture which defines itself as "free thinking" and "open minded" commiting such an act. How does "tolerance" fit into this act of thievery... an act of selfishness designed to cause anger and pain to others?
Or, perhaps, you can share with us your remarkably intellectual insights on how such hypocrisy stands against the much broader charge of socialism. Yes, I've just childishly expanded the picture. Is it fair to include these hate mongers among the broader picture of American liberalism? Do the tactics used in this instance sound familiar to the early days of the brown shirts? Why would this symbol cause such disdain to provoke illegal removal? Will there be an eventual night of the long knives? Should Poland be afraid?
As I await, notebook and pen in hand, I tremble at the prospect of your response...
My what a snooty bit of sophistry.
I was just having some fun with the guy who is so serious. He laments all the failings of the nation and seems so unhappy with it. All that is really at issue here is a small cross on public land that is now missing. From that he seems to derive all the sorrows of whatever his narrow political point of view is.
Ciao.

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