Christian Taliban and the Muslim Taliban

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A Christian

Custer, SD

#1 Sep 8, 2013
Christian Taliban and the Muslim Taliban:

What is the difference between the Christian Taliban in the USA which are fundamentalist Christians who believe in establishing a theocratic state based on Biblical doctrine. Most of the world's Christian Taliban reside in the mid-western and southern United States of America.

Both are merely the end result of Christianity and Islam taken too seriously. Both are extremists killing for the sake of a religious cause. What is the difference between those Christians who bomb and kill abortion clinics or want to push their religion into politics? What is the IRA and the Roman Catholic Church connection?

The Taliban advocate a strict and extreme version of their religion, including policies about education, restrictions on women, and the destruction or maltreatment of other faiths and other sects of their faith.

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war." – Ann Coulter
"There should be absolutely no 'Separation of Church and State' in America." David Barton
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship." Gary North
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." George W. Bush
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist." Pat Robertson

The Christian Right is neither but they think they are both. I don't blame true Christians that try to live as Jesus commanded. I blame the stupid Christians who don’t act like Christians but justify their actions by pious religious claims. Which sadly results in a popular cult religion call the right wing Christian Taliban.

Remember that individual freedom is the distance between those wanting to impose their Church Theocracy and what Government & laws is actually necessary.

I would propose to you that if Jesus returns tomorrow he won’t ride into town on a Republican Elephant carrying an assault rifle, looking out for the rich, ranting about birth cert, promoting scandals -etc -etc. Rather than governing.. I don’t know for sure but would bet there is a better chance that he will ride
Sayer

Cheyenne, WY

#2 Sep 10, 2013
All this talk and you have yet to make a point. Are you sure you're a real (born again as Jesus requires) Christian? Scripture says God is not the author of confusion; you sound quite confused.

p.s. You might want to cut down on your caffeine intake.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#3 Sep 10, 2013
Sayer wrote:
All this talk and you have yet to make a point. Are you sure you're a real (born again as Jesus requires) Christian? Scripture says God is not the author of confusion; you sound quite confused.
p.s. You might want to cut down on your caffeine intake.
The point is pretty clear if you read the posting. Problem is you and the Muslim Taliban nuts are about the same.

Go bomb an abortion clinic or kill the people that work there.

Just as the Muslim Taliban you Christian Taliban nuts want to force your nutty stuff on people who do not agree with you.
Sayer

Cheyenne, WY

#4 Sep 10, 2013
You really are slueless, aren't you? You don't know ANYTHING about me or what I'm about. Now, "Christian", what did God say about speaking presumptuously?

So, what have YOU contributed to this world, other than making cryptic hot air? You have accomplished zero here.

BTW, I loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it. You know NOTHING.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#5 Sep 10, 2013
Sayer wrote:
You really are slueless, aren't you? You don't know ANYTHING about me or what I'm about. Now, "Christian", what did God say about speaking presumptuously?
So, what have YOU contributed to this world, other than making cryptic hot air? You have accomplished zero here.
BTW, I loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it. You know NOTHING.
Ok, then go bother someone else. I can smell a crazy religious nut pretty easy as can most readers.

No need to type in caps to try to act like you are screaming it's childish.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#6 Sep 11, 2013
Sayer wrote:
You really are slueless, aren't you? You don't know ANYTHING about me or what I'm about. Now, "Christian", what did God say about speaking presumptuously?
So, what have YOU contributed to this world, other than making cryptic hot air? You have accomplished zero here.
BTW, I loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it. You know NOTHING.
On second thought, you say you loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it, so why not post them up and let’s see just what you know about Islam.

You infer that you are an expert on both Christianity and Islam so why not post something up so we can see just how much you in fact do know. Maybe you are an expert and maybe you are not so since you have they already typed up and ready either post them here or provide a link so they can be reviewed.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#7 Sep 11, 2013
Sayer wrote:
You really are slueless, aren't you? You don't know ANYTHING about me or what I'm about. Now, "Christian", what did God say about speaking presumptuously?
So, what have YOU contributed to this world, other than making cryptic hot air? You have accomplished zero here.
BTW, I loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it. You know NOTHING.
Religious nuts are a major problem whether or not it’s the USA born again nuts or the Muslims. The Born again Christian Right is neither but they think they are both.

Religion is a mixed up mess over in Syria. Just as the USA Taliban will bomb abortion clinics and killed those who work there to impose their religious views so will Assad in Syria. Just as the born again religious right Taliban wishes to impose their religious views into government and schools so do the radical religious nut over in Syria.
I can see a dictator who holds power even though he is of a minority tribal & religious group using extreme measures for a couple of reasons.

It also puts those of his group in government and those of his tribe & religious sec in the same boat he is in,“if” he loses power. If he loses power they also are going to suffer for whatever measures he took. They know it and likely will stick with him for their own necks & families. This is a civil war within a country but it is more so a religious war.

He is of the Alawis sec of Shia Islam. Alawites represent only 12% of the Syrian population. Alawites are self-described Shi'ite Muslims. Shiite Muslim’s might consider them a sec within the Shite’s but Shiite Muslims will back him. In Syria’s Muslims, Sunnis make up 74%of the total. Shia's make up the remaining 13%. Alawites are the predominant Shia group,

Sunni Muslim’s don’t have any use for Alawites or much use for Shites - Sunni Muslims likely are with the rebels. Most Muslims are Sunni, about 80 – 90% of the world’s Muslims. Sunni Muslims will come from other countries to help.

It makes those in opposition to him know that he will go to any extreme to hold power and getting rid of him isn’t going to be easy. Seeing their women and children in their strong hold area dead would do one of two things make them fight harder or make them loose heart over the matter.

If that was a strong hold of his opposition it makes it easy for him to later send in his troops and wipe out any further resistance.

He plays for keeps because if he don’t he and his group is going to take the blood bath.

We stick our noses in it and they all will turn on us. We are really the outsiders. They are just having a family/religious dispute.

People who mix religion and politics do scary things.
They use religion to justify their actions in their own minds. Religion has survived over 200 years in this country because of separation of church and state. Theocracies use religion to justify their actions.
Opinion

Pine Ridge, SD

#8 Sep 29, 2013
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/09/29/saudi...

What is the difference when the Christian Taliban in the USA wants to impose its religious view in schools, government and women?????
nac

Patchogue, NY

#9 Sep 29, 2013
Opinion wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2 013/09/29/saudi-cleric-says-dr iving-hurts-women-ovaries/?int cmp=latestnews
What is the difference when the Christian Taliban in the USA wants to impose its religious view in schools, government and women?????
The difference is that Christians in the USA aren't really imposing anything on anyone. In fact, it's really just the opposite.

Sure, you can probably dig up an outlier example of some christian nut out there doing something silly... but for every example of it that can be found, an example of some idiot claiming to have seen Bigfoot can be found. Yet no one is worried about Bigfoot.

Send your kid to a public school and have him or her hand out (peaceful) Christian literature... see what happens. Your kid will be suspended immediately, and you will be quickly visited by CPS. If you answer "yes" when they ask if you own any firearms... kiss your baby goodbye. They're now property of the state... and you are considered an extremist.

I'm not religious, not a christian, have no interest in religion. But it is obvious to this observer that Christians in this country are not (at least succeeding in) imposing anything on anyone. I see many more examples of them being marginalized.
Opinion

Pine Ridge, SD

#10 Sep 30, 2013
nac wrote:
<quoted text>
The difference is that Christians in the USA aren't really imposing anything on anyone. In fact, it's really just the opposite.
----I'm not religious, not a christian, have no interest in religion. But it is obvious to this observer that Christians in this country are not (at least succeeding in) imposing anything on anyone. I see many more examples of them being marginalized.
Likely we will disagree over whether or not “some” Christians in the USA are not trying their best to force their religion and religious view on others. Much has already been posted on that subject.
Where you are not religious and not a Christian I am both, but likely see my Christian faith a little different than some other Christian denominations. I consider myself a “New Covent” or “New Testament Christian” who tries to follow the teachings of Christ. Many Christians get into the business of mixing the Old with the New Testament picking and choosing. Some simply are crazy.
All religions have moral doctrine, and this country is not a theocracy even though some Christians would like to believe it is. Freedom of religion is a two sided coin. One side is the freedom to practice your religion and the other side is your freedom from my religion. The government which represents all of us should not be allowed to use its functions to support a secular faith over your lack of faith. I do not want my faith being in government nor do I want my government being in my faith. I can vote my moral values based upon my Christian faith.
In my area, there is a constant battle over Christian prayers in school, in local city and county meetings. There is a constant array of abortion hurtle laws being passed to appease the Christian right. I’m not real fond of the idea of an abortion but fully support the individual right of a woman to have one but would be willing to place time limits on getting it done and eliminate all late term abortions. I consider that very personal individual right greater right than the right to own a firearm. Yet I am supportive of the right to bear arms but again I am open to certain limits just as within the right to free speech.
In a close very small town paper, twice the editor of the paper, has allowed right wing known religious zealots’ to post long letters claiming that the Democrats are the party of the devil and Republicans are the party of God. But when the majority of the Republican candidates running for President were talking to God and getting permission to run for President I guess it’s not just a local condition.
I would be against “any” religious group handing out their religious literature to students at public schools. But if they wanted to hand out their literature at the local main street it would be fine with me. I would have no problem, if when not needed for school activities, a gym/classroom be used for a large funeral or even as a “temporary” Church meeting as long as that right is given to all religious and non-religious groups.
Whether or not the Christian Taliban is as radical as the Muslim Taliban is open for debate. Far-right white male radicals and extreme Christianists are every bit as capable of acts of terrorism as radical Islamists
1. Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012
2. The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009
3. Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008.
4. The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994
5. The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996.
6. The murder of Barnett Slepian by James Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998
7. Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994.
8. Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010
9. The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984.
10. Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995.
Sayer

Cheyenne, WY

#11 Sep 30, 2013
A Christian wrote:
<quoted text>
On second thought, you say you loath Islam and have written a number of articles against it, so why not post them up and let’s see just what you know about Islam.
You infer that you are an expert on both Christianity and Islam so why not post something up so we can see just how much you in fact do know. Maybe you are an expert and maybe you are not so since you have they already typed up and ready either post them here or provide a link so they can be reviewed.
Fine, "Christian" (waj!), here are just a few:
http://www.cephas-library.com/islam/islam_hol...
http://angelart-gallery.com/forum/angtruth.ht...
Maybe I should post my article, "At That Name", which is just about all the many ways people (just like you) hate and avoid the name of Jesus.
BTW (ok to cap that?), you know that they limit here is 4k characters, right? Posting full articles would be impracticle.
Now, what about YOU, "Christian"? What have you contributed to the world? Anything at all? How is it, hypocrite, you go from such a self-righteous "Christian", to calling people who ACCEPTED Jesus "nuts"?
BTW also (another one), it took a while to get back to you because my comp was in for service and upgrades.
The day is coming when JESUS will challenge your hypocrisyand hatred of HIS name. You can take that to the bank.
view from above

Bronx, NY

#13 Oct 3, 2013
A Christian wrote:
Christian Taliban and the Muslim Taliban:
What is the difference between the Christian Taliban in the USA which are fundamentalist Christians who believe in establishing a theocratic state based on Biblical doctrine. Most of the world's Christian Taliban reside in the mid-western and southern United States of America.
Both are merely the end result of Christianity and Islam taken too seriously. Both are extremists killing for the sake of a religious cause. What is the difference between those Christians who bomb and kill abortion clinics or want to push their religion into politics? What is the IRA and the Roman Catholic Church connection?
The Taliban advocate a strict and extreme version of their religion, including policies about education, restrictions on women, and the destruction or maltreatment of other faiths and other sects of their faith.
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war." – Ann Coulter
"There should be absolutely no 'Separation of Church and State' in America." David Barton
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship." Gary North
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." George W. Bush
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist." Pat Robertson
The Christian Right is neither but they think they are both. I don't blame true Christians that try to live as Jesus commanded. I blame the stupid Christians who don’t act like Christians but justify their actions by pious religious claims. Which sadly results in a popular cult religion call the right wing Christian Taliban.
Remember that individual freedom is the distance between those wanting to impose their Church Theocracy and what Government & laws is actually necessary.
I would propose to you that if Jesus returns tomorrow he won’t ride into town on a Republican Elephant carrying an assault rifle, looking out for the rich, ranting about birth cert, promoting scandals -etc -etc. Rather than governing.. I don’t know for sure but would bet there is a better chance that he will ride
Excellent post.
Informative and truthful.
There is no difference between the two, both are full of it, propagandist, hateful and only want to promote their way and control a populace.
dunadd

Greensboro, NC

#14 Oct 4, 2013
Hey liar with South Dakota ISP. You mangy piece of trash have the audacity to write satanic McVeigh in a list of Christians. Just because trash is born in the USA don't make that trash a Christian. The word Christian comes from a Greek word meaning CHRISTLIKE and trash McVeigh is and never was a CHRISTIAN.
An extreme CHRISTIAN is a person who loves JESUS with their heart, soul, mind and strength and the satanic list in post 10 is jut that, a satanic list just as much as your muzzerds friends are. The words Christian Taliban makes as much sense as a elephant kangaroo. There ain't no such thing you lying piece of camel dung.
You ain't getting away with that lie of Christian Taliban
You have your lying day you piece of lying trash claiming you're from South Dakota when in actuality from the bottom pits of hell.
And then that lying thing on post 13 saying there isn't any difference between Christians and Taliban, your great and wonderful followers of the child molesting, murdering mohammed of the desert is a culture of death. It wasn't Christians dumped those building in the middle of NY but your piece of trash muzzerds. Christians don't give a rat's rear what you do in public including these John Dewey federal systems of dumbing down you call schools. All Christians want is the same privileges your trash federal government and your muzzerd communist president gives to the muzlim trash. These pieces of trash can blow that stupid horn for 5AM call to prayer but you bitch and gripe when Christians want to pray in school.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#15 Oct 4, 2013
dunadd wrote:
Hey liar with South Dakota ISP. You mangy piece of trash have the audacity to write satanic McVeigh in a list of Christians. Just because trash is born in the USA don't make that trash a Christian. The word Christian comes from a Greek word meaning CHRISTLIKE and trash McVeigh is and never was a CHRISTIAN.
An extreme CHRISTIAN is a person who loves JESUS with their heart, soul, mind and strength and the satanic list in post 10 is jut that, a satanic list just as much as your muzzerds friends are. The words Christian Taliban makes as much sense as a elephant kangaroo. There ain't no such thing you lying piece of camel dung.
You ain't getting away with that lie of Christian Taliban
You have your lying day you piece of lying trash claiming you're from South Dakota when in actuality from the bottom pits of hell.
And then that lying thing on post 13 saying there isn't any difference between Christians and Taliban, your great and wonderful followers of the child molesting, murdering mohammed of the desert is a culture of death. It wasn't Christians dumped those building in the middle of NY but your piece of trash muzzerds. Christians don't give a rat's rear what you do in public including these John Dewey federal systems of dumbing down you call schools. All Christians want is the same privileges your trash federal government and your muzzerd communist president gives to the muzlim trash. These pieces of trash can blow that stupid horn for 5AM call to prayer but you bitch and gripe when Christians want to pray in school.
Well sport you fit the profile. You sound just like a Muslim who heard someone was planning to burn the Quran.
McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic. During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.
McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.
Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.
All your cussing name calling ranting and insane raving pretty much says it all. You are a likely candidate for the USA Christian Taliban as you are nuts enough.
No more needs to be said. Your posting clearly reviles what you are---a religious NUT.
dunadd

Greensboro, NC

#16 Oct 4, 2013
It doesn't make a difference what McVeigh was raised. You missed the point altogether. CHRISTIAN means CHRISTLIKE. What did McVeigh do that is CHRISTLIKE. Where in the New testament did CHRIST teach to blow up a building.
I know you are a liar by using the word cussing describing me, so I agree, no more needs to be said. You are a liar. And if calling you truthfully what you are constitutes cussing name calling ranting and raving, I think it isn't any use talking to you,satan.
You have your satan day.
one more thing I ain't religious. Murderer McVeigh was religious, child raper mohammed was religious. The communist muzlim white house is religious, I ain't religious. satan is religious.
Hae a lying day which I am sure you will, liar.
A Christian

Custer, SD

#18 Oct 4, 2013
dunadd wrote:
It doesn't make a difference what McVeigh was raised. You missed the point altogether. CHRISTIAN means CHRISTLIKE. What did McVeigh do that is CHRISTLIKE. Where in the New testament did CHRIST teach to blow up a building.
I know you are a liar by using the word cussing describing me, so I agree, no more needs to be said. You are a liar. And if calling you truthfully what you are constitutes cussing name calling ranting and raving, I think it isn't any use talking to you,satan.
You have your satan day.
one more thing I ain't religious. Murderer McVeigh was religious, child raper mohammed was religious. The communist muzlim white house is religious, I ain't religious. satan is religious.
Hae a lying day which I am sure you will, liar.
Yo, stupid. You brought McVeigh up as not being a Christian. Now you say he is religious. Make up your mind if you have one.

Where in the Quran does Mohammad teach to blow up a building.

If you are not religious what you bitching about and calling everyone Satan.

You are nuttier than a fruit cake.
Sayer

Cheyenne, WY

#20 Oct 5, 2013
There is a need for definition of terms here. Most "Christians" are nowhere near what Jesus requires; most are not born again as he requires. Likewise, the "religious" world doesn't have a clue about the real Jesus. He himself said he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword (strife). The Jesus we must all face will be a Jesus of wrath and revenge, ruling with a (litteral) iron rod.
Sayer

Cheyenne, WY

#21 Oct 5, 2013
"Where in the Quran does Mohammad teach to blow up a building" [?]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-v...

There are the calls for violence. Bombs are their chosen method.
A Christian

Kyle, SD

#22 Oct 5, 2013
Sayer wrote:
"Where in the Quran does Mohammad teach to blow up a building" [?]
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-v...
There are the calls for violence. Bombs are their chosen method.
I also quote from the Bible:

Genocide in the Old Testament

{This is what the LORD Almighty says:‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”}(1 Samuel 15:2-3)

Even Westerners who have never opened the book - especially such people, perhaps - assume that the Koran is filled with calls for militarism and murder, and that those texts shape Islam.

Unconsciously, perhaps, many Christians consider Islam to be a kind of dark shadow of their own faith, with the ugly words of the Koran standing in absolute contrast to the scriptures they themselves cherish. In the minds of ordinary Christians - and Jews - the Koran teaches savagery and warfare, while the Bible offers a message of love, forgiveness, and charity. For the prophet Micah, God's commands to his people are summarized in the words "act justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). Christians recall the words of the dying Jesus: "Father, forgive them: they know not what they do."

But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races - of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted."

According to the Old Testament of the Bible, God is a tantrum-throwing, vindictive, misogynistic, apparently insecure all-powerful entity.

I myself am a "New Testament Christian" and follow the teachings of Christ. The Old Testament for me is not much more than history and reasons the New Testament came to be.

The problem with a lot of Christians is they try to combine the Old and New Testaments as it serves their purpose plus a lot of Christians don't act like Christians.

The Muslims have their Taliban and the Christians darn sure have their Taliban in the USA.
Luke

Kyle, SD

#23 Oct 6, 2013
dunadd wrote:
It doesn't make a difference what McVeigh was raised. You missed the point altogether. CHRISTIAN means CHRISTLIKE. What did McVeigh do that is CHRISTLIKE. Where in the New testament did CHRIST teach to blow up a building.
I know you are a liar by using the word cussing describing me, so I agree, no more needs to be said. You are a liar. And if calling you truthfully what you are constitutes cussing name calling ranting and raving, I think it isn't any use talking to you,satan.
You have your satan day.
one more thing I ain't religious. Murderer McVeigh was religious, child raper mohammed was religious. The communist muzlim white house is religious, I ain't religious. satan is religious.
Hae a lying day which I am sure you will, liar.
Which ways is it then according to the all knowing you??????

A more interesting reflection than merely contrasting verses is given at Gospel Contradictions.

Have I taken things out of context (read here)? Meanwhile read on...
"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"the whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)
"For God so loved the world" (John 3:16)
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”(1 John 2:15)

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

"Jacob said,'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)

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