Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

[MAAT]

Spoke too soon.
The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) is born

Muhammad (s.a.w.a.) was born in such a family on Friday, the 17th Rabi'-ul-Awwal, 1st year of 'Amul-Fil (corresponding to 570 C.E.) to bring the Message of God to the world. In Sunni circles, 12th Rabi'-ul-Awwal is more famous. Thus, the prayer of Ibrahim while constructing the Ka'bah was granted:



Lord! And raise a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thine verses, and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them, indeed Thou art the Mighty, the Wise (Qur'an, 2:129).



And the tidings of Christ came true:-



O Children of Israel! Surely, I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Torah and giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me whose name will be Ahmed.(Qur'an, 61:6)



'Abdullah, father of the Prophet, died a few month before (or two months after) his birth, and his grandfather 'Abdul­Muttalib took over the care and upbringing of the child. After a few months, according to the age-long custom of the Arabs, the child was entrusted to a bedouin woman Halimah by name, of the tribe of Bani-Sa'd, for his upbringing.



When he was only six years old, he lost his mother as well; so, the doubly-orphaned child was brought up by 'Abdul-Muttalib with the most tender care. It was the will of God that the Prophet to-be should undergo all the sufferings, pains and privations incidental to human life in order that he might learn to bear them with becoming fortitude and raise his stature in human perfection. Not two years had passed before 'Abdul-Muttalib also expired.



'Abdul-Muttalib died at the age of 82, leaving the care and custody of the orphaned Muhammad (s.a.w.a.) to Abu Talib.
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Al-Burooj, a meccan verse relates the death of the christians under the hands of the converted Dhu Nuwas.(wiki) Two christian sources report the death, as well as this quraanic chapter. Dated however at 524 CE.
Another problem is the very name Muttalib which coincides with one of the names of a much later hadith writer in Baghdad.(The very same that is accredited with writing the 'weak'story on the disculpated killing of Asma Bint...)

[Frijoles]

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text2. Cities and states seem to be doing just fine creating parks and green spaces. And they are free access as far as I know. The voters may decide not to fund new ones, but it appears that they choose to.“As of March 2012, out of the 2.27 billion acres in the country, about 28% of the total was owned by the Federal government according to the Interior Department.” Time for another land lottery.

Conservation used to be a bipartisan issue. The Tea Party and their lack of memory and ethic makes me sad. Teddy Roosevelt, who did more for the park system than any other president, was a Republican.

http://conservamerica.org/
ConservAmerica was founded in 1995 to resurrect the GOP's great conservation tradition and to restore natural resource conservation and sound environmental protection as fundamental elements of the Republican Party's vision for America. Conservation is Conservative!

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You dont realistically expect a municipality or even a state to have the resources to aquire and properly manage a park like the Grand Canyon or Yosemite?

Total acreage is not the best statistic anyway. Quality and type of habitat, purpose, location, and stewardship all play into assessing how much green space is needed to meet conservation goals.

For example, where I live in CT we have more forest cover now then we did 120 years ago, but the forest is fragmented due to suburbanization. So just looking at total acreages of forested open space as an assessment of what is necessary to ensure forest preservation is erroneous.

[MAAT]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
That is the standard Constiutionalist argument (if I got the term correct). But that wasnt my point. There are a lot of quality of life services that the govt provides - including the social security safetynet. Juts b/c it is not mandated doesnt mean people cant want it and demand it. Thats what nation states do.

I was pondering the camel-tent analogy.
I read 'broke' and was reminded of : the straw that broke the camels back.
Officially it the camel's nose analogy.
The camel's nose thus goes first and soon the body will follow.
Must be the christian sheep mentality. Or that they think all people behave like sheep.(They could do with some proper biology classes.)
Uh is that the constitutionalist arguement in every case?

[SeasideSoon]

MAAT wrote:

<quoted text>
I was pondering the camel-tent analogy.
I read 'broke' and was reminded of : the straw that broke the camels back.
Officially it the camel's nose analogy.
The camel's nose thus goes first and soon the body will follow.
Must be the christian sheep mentality. Or that they think all people behave like sheep.(They could do with some proper biology classes.)
Uh is that the constitutionalist arguement in every case?

Actually in the analogy, government is the camel.

[Cult of Reason]

former res wrote:

Scary stuff.
__________
U.S. Rep. Paul Broun's view that the theories of evolution and the big bang are "lies straight from the pit of Hell" is getting more exposure than he might have expected, thanks to a video that was made at a church-sponsored banquet in Georgia and distributed by a progressive political watchdog group.
The Georgia Republican is already well-known as an outspoken conservative Christian, due in part to his unsuccessful campaign to have 2010 declared "the Year of the Bible." But the latest comments have taken on an extra dab of controversy because Broun, a medical doctor, calls himself a scientist in the video and chairs the House Science Committee's panel on investigations and oversight.
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/05...

The atheist , secular and humanist communities have been following this guy for a while. The scariest part isn't his beliefs, since many evangelicals think that way and we're used to it. The scariest part is that he chairs the House Science Commitee..

BTW - he's been married four times. Guess he picks and chooses what he's going to follow from the bible.

[MAAT]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
The atheist , secular and humanist communities have been following this guy for a while. The scariest part isn't his beliefs, since many evangelicals think that way and we're used to it. The scariest part is that he chairs the House Science Commitee..
BTW - he's been married four times. Guess he picks and chooses what he's going to follow from the bible.

I see. Born in 1946, living the easy life. Impending death looming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Broun
Obama a marxist hitler. To explain what he meant by calling Obama a marxist he invoked Hitlers career.
Global warming, evolution and the BB all scientific conspiracies.
Major lunatic.

[MAAT]

[..] we are used to it.:O
People like that would be sent home overhere.
Religion is one thing, but do not get the lines crossed. We expect stern scholarship from our politicians or they'll get marginalised.
But i guess that is the problem with a two party system. Every fool can hide under the umbrella.

[Cult of Reason]

MAAT wrote:

[..] we are used to it.:O
People like that would be sent home overhere.

What has to wonder the amount of cognitive dissonance these people must be dealing with.

[Cult of Reason]

CORRECTION: ONE has to wonder...

[MAAT]

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>Actually in the analogy, government is the camel.

On the other hand government i.e. the tax-payer has to jump in whenever a private company asks for a favourable export trade-decision.
And no matter what the cost, they get it. Especially in the Bush years.
You might have missed it but Europe is at war with America.
An economic war of protectionism.
I do understand that cities can't bare the burden.
However some services are relied upon.
Even to just give a semblance of normalcy.
But the economy is picking up, acc. the latest figures.

[MAAT]

Logic does not feature large, so maybe they are never bothered.

Kong had some good advise:
"The Clergy Letter Project". Science, INCLUDING THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION, does not require you to disavow a Supreme Being.

http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/Christi ...
12,822 Christian Clergy signatures as of 9/30/12

"Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth."

<<end cut/paste>>

It's a WONDERFUL resource to begin your research.
end quote
But that is what we would say to such representatives.

[MUQ]

MAAT wrote:

Well MUQ i always found the prophet PBUH to be to self-engrossed.

Honour to him and not to Allah.
Furthermore i learned that the old meaning of apostle used to be general.

A prophet is to further and teach what his god is about.

If Moses is the keeper of the book of Allah, then how on earth could we end up in such a mess.

Some unfinished business. The Who's Allah thread went to hell.
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Enough of the christianity bashing, since that is what it comes down to.

Jesus in the Koran is a kaleidoscope of different personalities derived mainly from the writings of early Christian heretics.

His identity ranges from being a part of the Spirit of Allah and His word who is supported by the Holy Spirit to being merely a prophet not unlike Noah or Jonah.

The former persona was reinforced by tales of Him speaking in the cradle, creating birds from mud as a child and raising the dead as well as running the Judgement Day.

So Muslims have a wide range of personalities to choose from when defining Issa and the choice would be the one they think will serve their purpose.

So it seems they do not know who or what jesus is.

So was dr. Elsaie right in supposing that the veil overlaid judas.??

Nor did i get an answer of what Surah and Ayat make the story of Asma weak fiqh, and under what law-school.??

And the other question is how do they know what faith Adam had and what he taught his kids.??

And let's add 66: 11-13...is that a case of actual use of the plural and referring to a former Trinitarian idea, thus christianity or even Elohim (plural)or plural gods, since all prophets were meant for their own time and place.??

Following, why would they call themselves an Abrahamic faith (they make the distinction in the Quran between themselves and the hanief of Abraham. maybe BMZ missed that)since that would not leave each prophet in his own time and season.?

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Ans.

Well your analysis of our prophet is totally wrong. He never asked for self glory, he was in constant action of praising Allah and His majesty and all his supplications are addressed to Allah.

And the same lesson he taught to his followers, when we send salutations to our Prophet, we only ask Allah to shower His peace and blessings and grace on our prophet. So it is indeed a remembrance of Allah.

Jesus of Quran is a much sublime and true personality than what we find in contradicting reposts of Gospels.

The source of knowledge of Quran is Allah, who knows EVERYTHING about jesus and none of the Gospel writer can match His knowledge.

Since you are split between two personalities, so you are confused and try to confuse other people.

[MUQ]

MAAT wrote:

I do not cater for devils and hell.
But rather for inconsistencies. if the prophet has to be recognizable for all men, t goes without say that he was not rosy-coloured. In one of the descriptions we find his furious face with the throbbing artery.
But i would say that it is a composed picture just as the one on issa is.


In the 10 AH some delegation from Najran in Yemen came to pray in the third mosque (the requisitioned former jewish synagogue)of madinat.
I did not find the christian or secular source to corroborate that.

Which did not safe them from annihilation.
So i've always stated it was not about religion but about trade and empires. So smaller merchants verses the big players.

There is also a Najran in Syria and the new Najran in Yemen.(An aside:kabaas and fast flowing waters are found everywhere. Nice to see that confirmed again. Now i still have to find out whether the meteorite -dedicated to a goddess- came from old pergamom.)
The actual history of the Najran Yemeni christians reconstructed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_commun ...

Ans.

It makes an interesting reading…..if you are not one of those Yamani Christians!!

[MAAT]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>
Ans.
Well your analysis of our prophet is totally wrong. He never asked for self glory, he was in constant action of praising Allah and His majesty and all his supplications are addressed to Allah.
And the same lesson he taught to his followers, when we send salutations to our Prophet, we only ask Allah to shower His peace and blessings and grace on our prophet. So it is indeed a remembrance of Allah.
Jesus of Quran is a much sublime and true personality than what we find in contradicting reposts of Gospels.
The source of knowledge of Quran is Allah, who knows EVERYTHING about jesus and none of the Gospel writer can match His knowledge.
Since you are split between two personalities, so you are confused and try to confuse other people.

I've been reading along what others forward.
Two would be easy.
Fact is that the image of jesus in the quraan is indeed composed of what the church would deem heretical ideas. But since the entire narrative is written in hearsay form it follows suit that anyone could add whatever story they wanted as long as it was a positive contribution i.e. socalled inspired writing.
The strange fact is that most of the secular knowledge in islamic countries came from this very enemy.

Which strenghtens the idea that it was all about tradewars.
When they do not war they trade.
The old Roman patricians became the new creed ecclesiastics in charge of the same old.
Easy to follow this example.

But MUQ what i get from your response is that islam is frankly just another form of christianity.

[MAAT]

Y&#363;suf Dh&#363; Nuwas,(Arabic: &#1610;&#1608;&#15 87;&#1601; &#1584;&#1608; &#1606;&#1608;&#15 75;&#1587;&#8206;)(als o Y&#363;suf Asar Dh&#363; Nuwas or Dunaan;[1] ruled Circa 517–525) was the last king of the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen and a convert to Judaism.

Some sources state that he was the successor of Rabia ibn Mudhar, a member of the same dynasty; the archeologist Alessandro de Maigret believes he was a usurper.[2]Nashwad bin Sa'id al-Himyari stated that he killed his predecessor with a stiletto hidden in his sandal while his predecessor was seducing the handsome Yusuf in his chambers.[3] According to a number of medieval historians, who depend on the account of John of Ephesus, Dh&#363; Nuwas, who was a convert to Judaism, announced that he would persecute the Christians living in his kingdom because Christian states persecuted his fellow co-religionists in their realms; a letter survives written by Simon, the bishop of Beth Arsham in 524 AD, recounts Dh&#363; Nuwas'(where he is called Dimnon) persecution in Najran (modern al-Ukhdud in Saudi Arabia).[4] The persecution is apparently described and condemned in the Qur'an (al-Buruj:4).

According to the contemporary sources, after seizing the throne of the Himyarites, in ca. 518 or 523 Dh&#363; Nuwas attacked the Aksumite (mainly Christian Ethiopians) garrison at Zafar, capturing them and burning their churches. He then moved against Najran, a Christian and Aksumite stronghold. After accepting the city's capitulation, he massacred those inhabitants who would not renounce Christianity. Estimates of the death toll from this event range up to 20,000 in some sources.

Dh&#363; Nuwas then proceeded to write a letter to the Lakhmid king Mundhir of al-&#294;&#299;ra and King Kavadh I of Persia, informing them of his deed and encouraging them to do likewise to the Christians under their dominion. Al-Mundhir received this letter in January 519[citation needed] as he was receiving an embassy from Constantinople seeking to forge a peace between the Roman Empire and Hira. He revealed the contents of the letter to the Roman ambassadors who were horrified at its contents. Word of the slaughter quickly spread throughout the Roman and Persian realms, and refugees from Najran even reached the court of the Roman emperor Justin I himself, begging him to avenge the martyred Christians.

The slaughter of the Axumite garrison in Zafar also provoked a response from Kaleb, King of Axum. Procopius reports that Kaleb (whom he calls Hellesthaeus) with the help of Justin, the Roman Emperor, collected a fleet and crossed from Africa to Yemen, where he defeated Dh&#363; Nuwas about the year 520 or 525 (1.20). Kaleb then appointed his Christian South Arabian follower Sumuafa' Ashawa'(named Esimphaios by Procopius), to rule Yemen as his viceroy.

Arab tradition states that Dh&#363; Nuwas committed suicide by riding his horse into the Red Sea. De Maigret reports that another South Arabian inscription from Husn al-Ghurab may indicate that he was killed in battle fighting against Kaleb's army.[5] De Maigret also reports that in 1951, three inscriptions were found just north of al-Ukhdud, which refer to a military campaign led by Dh&#363; Nuwas (where he is called Y&#363;suf Asar Yathar), and are dated to the year 633 of the Himyarite era, equivalent to AD 518 or 523.[6]

So if the hadith narrates the najran christians faith under this converted king, as well as other sources than how can the hadith be about the life of the prophet, given that he was not born yet.

[MAAT]

Or for that matter the quraan.

As stated 10 AH they went to the masjid.
But later they were killed by the muslims.

History is messy.
But this is about the reliability of the very prophet and received tradition. Divine right so to say.

[MAAT]

Hmm
http://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/misc...
A whole body of literature besides the hadith sofar ignored.

Al-Imran is mentioned again.

[MAAT]

http://harunyahya.com/en/works/37873/our-prop... -(saas)-affectionate-protectiv e

Loving affectionate and protective because he gave them permission to pray (in the requisited former synagoge).
What was disputed has suddenly become a fact.

[MAAT]

Interactions between Prophet Muhammad and Christians

Ismail ACAR

The first interaction between Prophet Muhammad and Christians took place when he was traveling to Syria with his uncle Abu Talib. Later, the Prophet had meetings and dealings with several Christians and Christian groups, including Waraqa ibn Nawfal and the Najran Christians. The agreement on the part of the Abyssinian king, Negus, to accept Muslims as immigrants in his land during the Makkan period was also a significant interaction between a Christian king and the Prophet. Prior to the start of his mission, Prophet Muhammad had encounters with some Christians on a personal basis in his daily life as a pious merchant of Makka. However, these interactions consisted of occasional meetings and talks for the most part; they did not include any serious discussions or long-lasting communications.

Meeting with the Monk Bahira

The Prophet’s first meeting with a Christian occurred when he, as a young boy aged between nine or twelve, joined his uncle’s merchant caravan for a trip to Syria.1 The Christian whom the Prophet Muhammad encountered was the monk, Bahira,2 who was living in Bostra, a Roman colonial city.3 Monk Bahira was known for his belief that a prophet was soon to appear among the Arabs. Bahira had studied old manuscripts, where he had learned of the coming of a final prophet, and he was convinced that this prophet would appear in his own lifetime. He was particularly interested in the Arab merchants who visited Syria, to see if his conviction would come true.

Bahira’s attention was struck in particular by a caravan from Makka, which to his amazement, was shaded by a cloud that hovered closely above them. The cloud moved as the caravan moved, and did not go any further when they stopped; it was as if it were providing shade for a person or people in the group. When he also noticed that a tree lowered its branches over the caravan to provide further shade, he immediately realized that this caravan must contain an extraordinary person or persons. He invited all of the individuals in the caravan to a meal at his place, but none of their faces revealed the capacity of the expected Prophet. He inquired if there was anyone who had not joined the meal; the answer he received was that Muhammad had been left behind to watch the caravan. He was keen to see Muhammad; and when he actually saw him he realized that he carried all the signs that the awaited Prophet was to have, as describ-ed in his books.4 He told Muhammad’s uncle to take him back to Makka as soon as possible in order to guard him against potential enemies.5

This incident is used by some Western scholars as a basis to claim that Muhammad learned about the Judeo-Christian tradition from this monk, and that he later converted this knowl-edge into a new religion, i.e. Islam.6 However, it would not be logical or reasonable to adopt such an idea; Prophet Muhammad was far too young to acquire such an immense knowledge and the conversation between the monk and Muhammad was not a protracted one.

[MAAT]

Waraqa ibn Nawfal

Prophet Muhammad also had some encounters with one of the known Arab Christians in Makka, Waraqa ibn Nawfal. Waraqa was a respected man of his time and a well-known Christian scholar. When the Prophet received his first Qur’anic revelation on Mount Hira, it had a great impact on him. Following this unusual experience, he went home, feeling ill. His wife Khadija took the Prophet to Waraqa and told him about the revelation.7 After listening to Prophet Muhammad, Waraqa said that it was Gabriel, the Angel of Revelation, who had come to him, just as he had come to Moses, and he added,“I wish I were young.”8

Waraqa was an open-minded man; he converted from paganism to Christianity and also understood the features of the revelation that had been given to Muhammad. He sincerely supported Muhammad as a Christian believer when he understood that he was the awaited prophet, after Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them. Waraqa encouraged Muhammad to continue his call, without any doubt that God would protect him. This is a fine example of cooperation between a well known Christian scholar and the would-be Prophet.

The Abyssinian King (Negus) and The First Immigrants

When the Messenger of God began to declare his message openly, the Makkan pagans started to severely oppose him and the new Muslims, making many problems for them. Several Muslims died, with even more being humiliated and alienated. The Prophet realized that Makka was becoming a difficult place for Muslims to live in. He had his uncle as his protector; but there were many Muslims who had no protection from the aggressions of the Makkan pagans. He decided to send some of them to Abyssinia, especially those who had no effective protection; Abyssinia at the time was ruled by a Christian ruler. The Prophet told the group that King (Negus) of Abyssinia was a Christian, so they would be safe there.9 It is likely that Prophet Muhammad had some knowledge that the King was a peaceful and lenient ruler.

At the outset, eleven Muslims immigrated to Abyssinia. Later, they were joined by about 83 adult Muslims, women and men.10 Abyssinia was the Prophet’s choice; he felt that Christians were closer to Muslims than the Makkan pagans. When the first Muslim guests arrived there, they met with the King. Ja’far, as leader of the immigrants, gave the Prophet’s letter to the King, which read:“I have sent my cousin Ja’far to you, accompanied by a small number of Muslims; if he comes to you, receive them in hospitality ...” The King welcomed them and promised to protect them from their enemies. In the royal presence a question was put to them:“What do you say concerning Jesus?” The spokesman for the group replied,“concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.” When the King Negus heard this testimony, he picked up a twig from the ground and said,“I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the width of this twig.”11