In Bell case's wake, calling for special prosecutor

[Sam]

smitty wrote:

<quoted text>
BUT they werent armed.! so how did they perceive to be dangerous. Becasue it was late? I dont care what you say those cops were in the wrong. they should not have shot that man, period.

A car is a weapon.

A perceived threat can be construed as a legitimate threat, especially considering that they THEMSELVES had planted the idea that they were armed and dangerous.

Perfect example: If you led people to believe that you had a bomb, and then walked around as if you were going to use it, you would be shot as well.

It's the same dang thing.

The cops were justified in their shooting. They simply used excessive force, is all.

[Geraldine]

Also, considering the case brought up, above -- in the white man being tasered to death...

This white man was also unarmed. But, his actions were inappropriate and combative--he refused to follow orders several times and thus met an untimely death due to his own choices.

Same goes for Sean Bell. His defiance is what caused his death.

Not some gun-happy law-enforcement (especially considering their exemplary records on the force).

[Michael]

Ms. Ferraro: I poste dthe sdame Stop and Frisk report, with links in a couple of different threads.

I even post Isnora's and Oliver's GJ testimony a while ago.

So, cuz another black man is running for president, racism must be a lie...I love the train of thought, or lack thereof, for some folk.

Yes, Stop and Frisk can lead to summons/no arrest. I ask again, as the STOP AND FRISK REPORT did as well, if more blacks are stopped in black neighborhoods, more hispanics stopped in hispanic neighborhoods....drumroll PUH-LEEZ......then why are more black and hispancis stopped in white neighborhoods?

Even better, why Stop 2 black people for every arrest made through May 5, 2008? Their data showed 36,000 TOTAL ARRESTS< yet over 75,000 Stops of Black folks. YOu whine about tickets and summonses, again, the NYPD released the data not me.

logic would dictate that only suspicious people, or people committing crimes would be stopped. Is it really that hard to understand?

[smitty]

Sam wrote:

<quoted text>
A car is a weapon.
A perceived threat can be construed as a legitimate threat, especially considering that they THEMSELVES had planted the idea that they were armed and dangerous.
Perfect example: If you led people to believe that you had a bomb, and then walked around as if you were going to use it, you would be shot as well.
It's the same dang thing.
The cops were justified in their shooting. They simply used excessive force, is all.

I disagree 100%.

[rp077 Long island]

Michael wrote:

Ms. Ferraro: I poste dthe sdame Stop and Frisk report, with links in a couple of different threads.
I even post Isnora's and Oliver's GJ testimony a while ago.
So, cuz another black man is running for president, racism must be a lie...I love the train of thought, or lack thereof, for some folk.
Yes, Stop and Frisk can lead to summons/no arrest. I ask again, as the STOP AND FRISK REPORT did as well, if more blacks are stopped in black neighborhoods, more hispanics stopped in hispanic neighborhoods....drumroll PUH-LEEZ......then why are more black and hispancis stopped in white neighborhoods?
Even better, why Stop 2 black people for every arrest made through May 5, 2008? Their data showed 36,000 TOTAL ARRESTS< yet over 75,000 Stops of Black folks. YOu whine about tickets and summonses, again, the NYPD released the data not me.
logic would dictate that only suspicious people, or people committing crimes would be stopped. Is it really that hard to understand?

Hi Mike! How was the weekend? Sorry, been out of town last week, could not 'converse".

Again, I'll answer your Stop Question & Frisk stats (again and again and again). Blacks are stopped more in NYC because the overwhelming statistics show blacks commit a larger percentage of crime (yes, even in white communities).

Blacks are roughly 24% of the population in NYC yet commit (that is according to victim descriptions), 67% of reportable crimes (St John’s University Lambert Study statistics from 1996).

So when a victim says a male black wearing a red base ball cap just robbed me, guess who is going to be stopped?

Blacks and Hispanics are the leading ethnic groups who are described as crime suspects, so who do you think is going to be stopped more in any community?

We keep going over and over this, yet you still quote the stats...

Google RAND Corporation for NYPD's SQ&F study, they found no racial bias on the SQ&F reporting from the NYPD. In fact, one interesting stat is that whites are arrested/or ticketed at a higher rate when stopped, than are blacks.

[Michael]

RAND is a paid company that will interpret data as their "customers" see fit.

By all means, post the link and I'll review it.

Again, I would be happy if only suspects, "those who fit the description", and people acting suspiciously, were the only ones being stopped and frisked. Alas, the data shows most people who are stopped and frisked, have no criminal charges attached.

Since I was committing no criminality, not acting suspicious, and did not fit the description of any suspect, I asked why I was stopped and was given threats and attitude in response.

Again, if you arrest 36,000 people from 1/1/08 to 5/5/08, what justifies stopping 75,000 people of one race during that same time period? For every one arrest, 2 black folks were stopped. And this is good policy?

Spritzer's report stated that in black neighborhoods, blacks get stopped more oftern. In hispanic neighborhoods, hispanics stopped more oftern, yet in white neighborhoods, yup...blacks and hispanics stopped more often. There were only 3-4 precincts where the stop and frisks MATCHED the demographic of ehtnicities in the same area.

I understand stopping and frisking suspects, people who act suspicious, people who fit descriptions and general questioning. However, when too many folks are stopped simply walking on the sidewalk, parking their car, or to/from the store/home...without being suspects, fitting descriptions or AnY CRIMINALITY AFOOT.....you folks still attempt to justify it....

Amazing.

[Geraldine]

Michael wrote:

Ms. Ferraro: I poste dthe sdame Stop and Frisk report, with links in a couple of different threads.
I even post Isnora's and Oliver's GJ testimony a while ago.
So, cuz another black man is running for president, racism must be a lie...I love the train of thought, or lack thereof, for some folk.
Yes, Stop and Frisk can lead to summons/no arrest. I ask again, as the STOP AND FRISK REPORT did as well, if more blacks are stopped in black neighborhoods, more hispanics stopped in hispanic neighborhoods....drumroll PUH-LEEZ......then why are more black and hispancis stopped in white neighborhoods?
Even better, why Stop 2 black people for every arrest made through May 5, 2008? Their data showed 36,000 TOTAL ARRESTS< yet over 75,000 Stops of Black folks. YOu whine about tickets and summonses, again, the NYPD released the data not me.
logic would dictate that only suspicious people, or people committing crimes would be stopped. Is it really that hard to understand?

Whoa, whoa...

You say I whine about data, but that the NYPD releases their own figures, not you.

But then you claim to understand that not all stop & frisks will result in arrests...that many more result in summonses.

So you're saying that you're basing your argument solely on the figures that the NYPD releases (they're not required to release how many summonses are issued, as a result of Stop and Frisk)...

BUT...

you acquiesce that the data does not account for the additional tickets issued.

So, essentially, you're AGAIN telling me that you're making unfounded observations on incomplete and unproven data.

Surprise, surprise.

[Geraldine]

Also, I showed you through statistics how Whites are a minority in the City of New York. Therefore, by that simple figure ALONE -- the odds of more whites being stopped then, say, Hispanics or Blacks is considerably less.

What I would like to see, MICHAEL, is you argue the violent nature of the Black Communities.

Because, in my opinion, if you really boil down the statistics, what you'll find is that the reason why Blacks may be more prone to "run-ins" with the law, is because they commit most of the crimes:

• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder,
and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely
than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and
Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of
the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving
blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.

So, what are you saying, Mikey?

That these Communities really don't commit these crimes? And that the cops are just "making it all up"?

Please. Everyone knows that this is a classic example of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy, and that the solution needs to start from within.

[Data Pulled from the article, "Race, Crime and Justice in America: The Color of Crime"]

[Michael]

Again, when did Hispanics become a race?

Secondly...where did the article appear and can you post a link to same? I don't really trust individual interpretations, until I can see the data myself.

The stats, were for the entire US, just NYC, only urban areas, I need a lil more information, as for some reason you didn't provide a link.

[NYRESQ]

THE THREE ARE FREE GOD BLESS JUDGE COOPERMAN

[Michael]

Geraldine...if the data of Summonses produced from Stop and Frisks would lead to the conclusion the NYPD does not racially profile those Stopped and Frisked, one would presume the NYPD would release those figures, whether they are required to or not, correct?

If they refuse to release said data, either cuz they don't compile it, or are not REQUIRED to release it, what inferences can be drawn?

If the data shows more dark skinned people getting summonses, you'd say it's cuz they commit more infractions, while I say it's because they are stopped more.

None of it is pertinent to the fact that the NYPD are stopping non-suspects, non-criminals, and people who are doing NOTHING WRONG!

I point that out, and even the fact that instead of initiating a Stop and Frisk on me, all three times began WITH SEARCHES OF OUR PERSON, and then lead to questioning...in OPPOSITION to the law.

But, keep focusing on all those criminal dark skinned folk...who are admittedly a minority witihin the minority.

[smitty]

Michael wrote:

RAND is a paid company that will interpret data as their "customers" see fit.
By all means, post the link and I'll review it.
Again, I would be happy if only suspects, "those who fit the description", and people acting suspiciously, were the only ones being stopped and frisked. Alas, the data shows most people who are stopped and frisked, have no criminal charges attached.
Since I was committing no criminality, not acting suspicious, and did not fit the description of any suspect, I asked why I was stopped and was given threats and attitude in response.
Again, if you arrest 36,000 people from 1/1/08 to 5/5/08, what justifies stopping 75,000 people of one race during that same time period? For every one arrest, 2 black folks were stopped. And this is good policy?
Spritzer's report stated that in black neighborhoods, blacks get stopped more oftern. In hispanic neighborhoods, hispanics stopped more oftern, yet in white neighborhoods, yup...blacks and hispanics stopped more often. There were only 3-4 precincts where the stop and frisks MATCHED the demographic of ehtnicities in the same area.
I understand stopping and frisking suspects, people who act suspicious, people who fit descriptions and general questioning. However, when too many folks are stopped simply walking on the sidewalk, parking their car, or to/from the store/home...without being suspects, fitting descriptions or AnY CRIMINALITY AFOOT.....you folks still attempt to justify it....
Amazing.

Mike they just dont get it, they have to walk a mile in a black man's shoes otherwise they cant see it.

check this obs out, and they ask why blacks say cops harass us:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/20...

w

[Geraldine]

smitty wrote:

<quoted text>
Mike they just dont get it, they have to walk a mile in a black man's shoes otherwise they cant see it.
check this obs out, and they ask why blacks say cops harass us:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/20...
w

Actually, Smitty--

Michael says he's White.

So I hardly doubt he can accurately claim he's walked a mile in your shoes.

I'll post again, just for your information:

I am a Native American. Registered with the United States Government.

If you really (and I mean REALLY) want to talk about unfair treatment of an entire demographic of people, then come talk to me.

And, to add fuel to the fire, I am a woman. You think you're "people" have been oppressed? Women have been oppressed for centuries upon centuries...

So no, you have no right to tell me that I don't "understand". I've walked thousands of miles in shoes far worse then yours.

[Geraldine]

But, here's the best part:

I don't whine and complain and stomp my feet saying that "People don't understand my plight."

I understand that my own destiny is within my own hands.

Realistically, a cop cannot arrest you without just cause.

So whatever ill you want to believe: If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

P.S.-- The New York Daily News is just as sensationalist as Newsweek (this sponsored blog)

[Geraldine]

Michael wrote:

Again, when did Hispanics become a race?
Secondly...where did the article appear and can you post a link to same? I don't really trust individual interpretations, until I can see the data myself.
The stats, were for the entire US, just NYC, only urban areas, I need a lil more information, as for some reason you didn't provide a link.

LOL -- Mikey, I gave you the info -- any dolt with half a brain can copy and paste into Google.com . But here's an interesting link that sums-up the report:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php...

It clearly states that while the actual article is written by a right-leaning group, it is statistically-sound and backed by FBI data.

And as for your "assertion" that Hispanics do not constitute a "race" -- they most certainly costitute a DEMOGRAPHIC. And therefore, can be classified as such.

P.S.-- Don't belittle me for not posting a link. You did not post links for any of your "flubbed" data.

[smitty]

Geraldine wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, Smitty--
Michael says he's White.
So I hardly doubt he can accurately claim he's walked a mile in your shoes.
I'll post again, just for your information:
I am a Native American. Registered with the United States Government.
If you really (and I mean REALLY) want to talk about unfair treatment of an entire demographic of people, then come talk to me.
And, to add fuel to the fire, I am a woman. You think you're "people" have been oppressed? Women have been oppressed for centuries upon centuries...
So no, you have no right to tell me that I don't "understand". I've walked thousands of miles in shoes far worse then yours.

so you think the native americans had it worse than the slaves? I disagree 100%

[CIVICS 101]

Fed up wrote:

<quoted text>
Let's cover this for the millionth time. He wasn't getting married the next day, as no marriage license was issued. Also, Sean Bell was a thrice convicted felon: two convictions for drug trafficking (sold crack twice to undercover cops) and one for illegal firearm possession. He wasn't quite the saint you wish he was.
Did the cops use poor judgment in firing so many rounds? Probably, but that is difficult to determine as neither of us were there. Sean Bell used his car as a weapon, hitting other vehicles, an undercover officer and a storefront. I would feel pretty threated too if I was the cop he was driving towards. Whatever the case may be, the judge has determined that there was no criminal INTENT on behalf of the officers. If only the same could be said for Sean Bell, who started this whole thing when he threatened to use a gun as he was attempting to solicit the services of a prostitute. A fine, upstanding citizen? I think not.

Tim Allen was arrested for selling 650 gram of cocaine and got 2years in jail it isnt a justification to shoot an unarmed man in the street.

[CIVICS 101]

Geraldine wrote:

But, here's the best part:
I don't whine and complain and stomp my feet saying that "People don't understand my plight."
I understand that my own destiny is within my own hands.
Realistically, a cop cannot arrest you without just cause.
So whatever ill you want to believe: If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

P.S.-- The New York Daily News is just as sensationalist as Newsweek (this sponsored blog)

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-...

[Geraldine]

smitty wrote:

<quoted text>
so you think the native americans had it worse than the slaves? I disagree 100%

Yes, I do. Absolutely. Google "Trail of Tears"; do some research for a change instead of whining about things you don't have information on.

Africans (in Africa) had been enslaving persons from rival tribes for centuries, prior to any "Whites" even discovering the continent. As a matter of fact, the White colonists got the IDEA from the African tribes and their own slave trade.

Also, Smitty, my immediate family has been affected--monetarily, property-wise and other--directly from relations with Native Americans. AND, if you really want to argue semantics, above and beyond Native Americans being forced from their lands and murdered (by the hundreds of thousands, mind you, a number that VASTLY dwarfs any murderings of Blacks during slavery times), they were held captive on "reservations". So, yes, your argument holds no water with me.

How many generations ago, in your family, were your ancestors affected by slavery?

Because, see, my grandfather TODAY is still affected by the US Government's policies on land-owner rights, and his unjust (and forcibly) removal from his land.

I laugh at your ignorance.

And, furthermore, women's oppression led well into the 20th century--when women weren't allowed contraceptives or "rights" until well after 1964. Or even that women make statistically (significantly) less then men in the workforce, despite having precisely the same education and/or skill level.

So there, combined, is data to support my ideology that you have NO IDEA what the heck you're talking about.

[Geraldine]

Because, see, I can directly PROVE how the treatment of Native Americans--my grandfather--DIRECTLY affects my family (and me) TODAY.

Not how it affected my great-great-great grandfather some 150 years ago.

But, the heart of the issue is that I don't walk around with that as my "crutch" or my excuse for why I'm this, or I'm that.

I don't blame my heritage on factors outside of my control; nor do I blame my heritage and automatically corellate that any problems I have are because of it.

It's your scapegoat.

You (along with Mikey) automatically assume that because a Black person is getting in trouble with the Law, it's because of his skin color. Regardless of whatever actions preceded the arrest/summons/whatever.

Sean Bell is a perfect example of this mentality--it is proof in my mind that the Community needs some serious help...

That "The Boy Who Cried Wolf [Racism]" story is alive and well in the USA today--and the reason why Racism still exists is because people like you beat it like a dead horse.

Why don't you admit that there are some problems in the Black Community (as there are problems in ALL communities, I know) and rather then blame extemporaneous [untrue] reasons, reflect inward and pitch in to change the rotting mentality that is going to ruin the Community you so love?