*** Time to get real about QB ***

*** Time to get real about QB ***

Posted in the Minnesota Vikings Forum

First Prev
of 6
Next Last

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#1 Dec 10, 2012
Many of us have ignored reality or avoided talking the truth about Ponder. Mostly it was to trash any discussion by World's Dubmest Football Poster. We can't avoid the harsh realities about Ponder anymore.

1) He is too skittish in the pocket and too quick to run or get rid of the ball.
2) His accuracy under 15 yards is great but over 15 yds he's Tarvaris Jackson.
3) He doesn't have the zip to throw the tight slants and hard out routes.
4) He can't sell it on play action pass (not like Musgrave calls many anyhow).

Happy feet and pocket presence can be fixed but arm strength and ball speed is what it is. Vikings can grind it out on the ground only so far but a better passing QB is needed to make this team a contender.

Thoughts? All comments from WDFP shall be ignored.
Magnum Man

Pinckneyville, IL

#2 Dec 10, 2012
Stubb I agree that it is getting harder and harder to defend Ponder. I will also admit that since I don't have NFL ticket or direct TV I have very limited input for my opinion.

First lets look at what we have and want to keep. RB is great, K is solid, TE is good, DE is good and LB (Greenway only) is solid.

Now lets look at what we need. I think we can agree that we need one or two more WR's and with Harvin possibly being exiting from the team, that would only put more emphasis on that position.

RG is a position of upgrade, DT could use some help, our secondary is aging and we could always us depth.

so lets do the math: 2 WRs, 1 RG, 1 DT, 1 CB, 2 depth.
there are the seven draft pics. Maybe we could pick up someone in FA and enable us to alter our draft needs. That is a possiblity.

But the bottom line is this, due we want to go out on the limb and get another QB who may or maynot be an improvement? Or do we try to "get by" with what we have and hope that by adding WRs we'll see improvement?

I'm not sure that there is one correct answere. But I'm still holding out that Ponder will improve.

Your thoughts.....
(except WDFP of course).....

“Zimmer Turner Overdrive”

Since: Jan 07

Minneapolis

#3 Dec 10, 2012
Well, I am always ready to upgrade any position, which is why I wanted RG3 so bad - an obvious upgrade for probably 20 NFL teams, Vikes included. But, RG3 is now a redskin, so I am back to Ponder is our QB unless we can get an obvious upgrade.

Ponder's main problem is the Vikings have him throw too often many times, and his arm is not super strong, so he checks down. Confidence seems to be an issue where he gets down on himself, etc. but lets stay with arm strength, for now. Greg McElroy, according to Ryan, greatly improved his arm strength in the offseason, Ponder needs to dial him up. Also, I am not at all sure Peyton Manning has a stronger arm than Ponder - for sure not stronger today - so, Ponder needs to do what Manning does. He's smart enough to figure out Manning has a system with his WR's where when a corner turns his hips to run, the WR is to break for the ball then because Manning just threw it.(back shoulder, inside, whatever.) My point is that Ponder is enough to win some games and have a desent career, but it is on Ponder to do so.

For musgrave/frazier, the question is how best do you help him/vikings win games. The formula seems somewhat obvious, to me. Vikes have an athletic Ponder and a freak of nature Webb. Why do we not have them running the pistol/option/spread stuff a bit more like SF, Wash, Carolina, seattle, etc? Ponder should be riding AD's hip with the ball and give it to him 10 times a game like that, then pull the ball and throw deep down the seam or sideline 3 times a game. If webb goes in, Webb can also keep it some, as Webb is better than Kaepernick imo.(both fast, inaccurate, strong armed. Webb is just even more elusive.) It's stubbern stupidity not to go to the team QBs' strengths.

Also, do any of you OC bashers/ coach bashers now still hate Darrell Bevell? Maybe it's not the coaching so much and it's the personnel, as i've been saying. I loved Bevell when he was here and now he looks like a genius in seattle developing russell wilson. Just sayin' maybe the rest of you can start looking at it from my point of view.

All viking first round picks in the Spielman era have been on offense, I believe, except the trade up for Harrison Smith (thank goodness). Cris Cook was the first pick one year, but a second, as well. The offense is made entirely up of Spielman guys. Every position. So why does the offense suck?(letting Sidney Rice go obviously hurts and i sure thought it was a bad move.) Adrian Peterson in 2007, Percy Harvin in 2008 and Christian Ponder in 2011, Ryan Kalil in 2012. Cris Cook in 2010 was #34 - but at the cost we missed out on Robinson, who is better, or trading up for Dez Bryant, as I lobbied. 2009 was the cost for Jared Allen. Obviously, a great trade that worked out for both teams. Spielman seems pretty good at finding decent players, though not as good at drafting a great team. Nor was he in Miami:
http://www.phins.com/chris/column_060905.html

Anyway, we are very close to an elite defense; elite defenses are built from the inside-out, though, and that is where we are weakest. We have marginal to poor DT's and marginal to poor LB's.

Adding a DT that can pass rush is the great QB equalizer, to get back on track, which is why I thought trade down, take Fletcher Cox, add a second round LT like Alabama's Cordy Glenn, who i never dreamed would fall that far (Mike Schwartz was a name i mentioned, as was Kelechi Oesemele at guard - ok, i digress again) To see the effect a beast DT can have, look at Geno Atkins.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/1331...

Cincinnati has not had a 300 yard passer against them since week 2 - allowing the questionable arm of Dalton to be more than enough. Obviously, monster DT finds is like finding a Unicorn, so we can't go haphazardly drafting big bodies. But a unicorn "fixes" Ponder, as the Vikes won't be down by double digits so often, allowing teams to frustrate him more.

Since: Dec 06

Spring Hill, FL

#5 Dec 10, 2012
Draft a Qb early,maybe rd 2.If he's good enough,he starts.It at least creates competition,Webb isn't a Qb and teams with game tape will prove it.
I thought Bevell sucked in Minn and was glad he was canned.Hope the same for our present OC.The decision in Seattle to draft a Qb wasn't on Bevell nor was it his decision to not start the FA Qb acquisition from GB.I don't see Seattle dong all that much offensively with Bevell,of course the beast helps on running,nor the same for the Minn OC.Play calling does matter.
Use the #1 pick for a difference maker.If they want a FA Qb,instead of drafting one,that's their decision but upgrade at Qb is necessary.

Since: Dec 06

Spring Hill, FL

#6 Dec 10, 2012
The Pats have scored 50 TD's combined,defense and offense We have 27,so we need some work.
Speaking of Bevell,
back in 09,Favre routinely changed the play at the line,pissing off Childress.Every time they showed the booth,Bevell was reading the newspaper.

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#7 Dec 11, 2012
PF - You are too focused on first round. You take best available player that fits team needs. Those team needs also a ranked in priority. Last year Kalil was best player and LT was #1 area of need. DT was probably about #30 area of need. If they would have draffted Fletcher Cox the offense would really suck and they'd have 3-4 fewer wins.

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#8 Dec 11, 2012
I do think Musgrave has been stupid to not use a pistol formation. Pistol keeps AD closer to the line for a run while also letting Ponder drop back quicker and get rid of the ball before he panics. Pistol leaves run open which helps reduce the all out blitzes Ponder sees every time he is in the shotgun. Shotgun doesn't work with the right side of the line and Ponder's happy feet. Pistol with option reads would work better.

Since pistol wasn't invented until after the 50s Musgrave wouldn't know how to use it since he runs a 50s era offense.
Harry

Palmdale, CA

#9 Dec 11, 2012
Stubby wrote:
Many of us have ignored reality or avoided talking the truth about Ponder. Mostly it was to trash any discussion by World's Dubmest Football Poster. We can't avoid the harsh realities about Ponder anymore.
1) He is too skittish in the pocket and too quick to run or get rid of the ball.
2) His accuracy under 15 yards is great but over 15 yds he's Tarvaris Jackson.
3) He doesn't have the zip to throw the tight slants and hard out routes.
4) He can't sell it on play action pass (not like Musgrave calls many anyhow).
Happy feet and pocket presence can be fixed but arm strength and ball speed is what it is. Vikings can grind it out on the ground only so far but a better passing QB is needed to make this team a contender.
Thoughts? All comments from WDFP shall be ignored.
Back in the day, taking 5 years to develop a QB was normal.

Now its all about TV. And there are 32 teams.

Lets look at the effort to get a high-quality QB. Denver gambled on a SB winner with a bad neck. Luck and RG3 were obvious choices, with Washington trading up to get their guy. Eli did not want to be in San Diego, Giants got him. Green Bay KNEW Rodgers was the guy of the future and kinda straggling moving an aging Favre along.
Morning Brees has worked out for the Saints. Still hate him.
And there are teams that made horrible moves. The hoodie sent Cassel to KC and you know how thats going. The Raiders bet too much on Palmer. Stafford in Detroit, whoever in St Louis and Miami and Cleveland and Jacksonville and etc.........

Busting a big move to get a winning QB is risky. Spielman needs to do his job or his job is over.

I really cannot think of any QBs in college or the pros that fits the bill for the Vikes just now. But we can use deductive reasoning and eliminate any players Avant mentions.

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#10 Dec 11, 2012
I look around at what other teams have done. Rodgers was waiting in the wings, Foles was sitting behind Vick, Kapaernick behind Smith and even Kirk Cousins behind RGIII. I could go on. Yet what QB depth do the Vikings have. Webb has had a couple of exciting games but we've all seen his accuracy problem. To be truely competitive true depth is needed at QB to provide backup for injury or replacement for poor performance. I think the Jets are stupid for not pulling Sanchez for McElroy. I thought he would have been a great fit for the Vikings. That's really who I'd target in the off season for a trade.
Magnum Man

Pinckneyville, IL

#11 Dec 11, 2012
Stubby, let me get this correct. You want Sanchez to be our QB? Or did I mis-understand you and you want McElroy?

Either way I agree we need a better backup QB.

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#12 Dec 11, 2012
Not Sanchez, I like McElroy. I knew he was a steal in the late rounds. He actually fits a West Coast Offense that has a strong run game.

He fits the old method of developing QBs. Sit for a couple years and absorb, then begin a long solid career.
Magnum Man

Pinckneyville, IL

#13 Dec 11, 2012
Ok, just wasn't sure which QB you were talking about.
Harry

Palmdale, CA

#14 Dec 11, 2012
Magnum Man wrote:
Stubby, let me get this correct. You want Sanchez to be our QB? Or did I mis-understand you and you want McElroy?
Either way I agree we need a better backup QB.
Palmer, Leinert, Sanchez, John David Booty........enough! Do not draft Barkley PLEASE!

“Lying scumbags need not apply”

Since: Jan 08

Yorktown, VA

#15 Dec 11, 2012
I'm not big on Barkley. Four year starter with double digit INTs in 3 of those years. To me that screams poor decision making. I could understand having more picks as a freshman but they should decrease as a QB gains experience. Instead his TD production went down.

Overall USC's so called NFL style offense isn't really so NFL style. There is something suspect when off all the QBs it has produced Palmer is the only one to have a full career but he could never quite crack into the upper ranks. USC doesn't generate good QBs like media seems to think it does.
Procynic

Milton, FL

#16 Dec 12, 2012
Since it was known the Vikes are in rebuild mode, I think the main focus of the draft should go defense. Harrison Smith, Chad Greenway, Everson Griffen, Jared Allen, Brian Robison, and Josh Robinson are all keepers IMO, Though Im not sure Cook is ever gonna pan out, get a big, tall CB to cover the Brandon Marshalls and Calvin Johnsons of todays NFL. Some quality and depth is needed at defensive line and linebacker position. See if there is ANY upgrade at WR through draft or trade. I cant recall if this was Harvins contract year, or if we can still get something for him through trade (help anybody?) I really have a feeling he is not going to want to remain on the Vikings. Again, a bummer about G. Childs blowing both patellar tendons. But keep Jarius Wright, the rest of the receivers? I noticed again during the Bears game the announcers saying they couldnt see any Vikings receivers getting open down-field. I cant throw Ponder away if I havent seen him perform with at least a GOOD receiver to throw to. Besides, from listening to all the rest of you guys, the QB crop for the 2013 draft seems mighty thin, and the Vikings will not get a high enough 1st round pick to get quality anyway. Wait another year on Ponder and see what 2014 has to offer if it looks like a wash with Ponder. Thoughts and rebuttals welcome anyone? Except from you-know-who.

“Time to look to next year!”

Since: Jan 07

Detroit Lakes, MN

#17 Dec 12, 2012
Stubby wrote:
I look around at what other teams have done. Rodgers was waiting in the wings, Foles was sitting behind Vick, Kapaernick behind Smith and even Kirk Cousins behind RGIII. I could go on. Yet what QB depth do the Vikings have. Webb has had a couple of exciting games but we've all seen his accuracy problem. To be truely competitive true depth is needed at QB to provide backup for injury or replacement for poor performance. I think the Jets are stupid for not pulling Sanchez for McElroy. I thought he would have been a great fit for the Vikings. That's really who I'd target in the off season for a trade.
We need to move Web out of the QB position to WR or get rid of him. They won't play him at QB anyway so why take up the roster spot!

“Time to look to next year!”

Since: Jan 07

Detroit Lakes, MN

#18 Dec 12, 2012
Harry wrote:
<quoted text>
Palmer, Leinert, Sanchez, John David Booty........enough! Do not draft Barkley PLEASE!
USC doesn't produce QBs! You hit the nail on the head Harry!

“FORUMS LONGEST POSTING MEMBER ”

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#19 Dec 12, 2012
Childress, Magnum Man, Stubby, Harry, I'm proud of you. AP running for more yards than the Christian Jackson throws finally woke you guys up.

Purple Faithful You and I are the only ones right as usual. Keep up the good work.

Vikings 2013 QB I as see being a veteran. Peterson has 2 great year left no time to waste the hall of famer on another rookie.

Nick Foles is another rookie better than Tavaris Ponder.

“FORUMS LONGEST POSTING MEMBER ”

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#20 Dec 12, 2012
I see Alex Smith or Micheal Vick as the 2013 Quarterback Smith would have to take a pay cut.

“FORUMS LONGEST POSTING MEMBER ”

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#21 Dec 12, 2012
If Ponder is not the quarterback next year why would the owner let Spielman and Frazier stay?

There will be another big shakeup if Ponder fails.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 6
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Minnesota Vikings Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
On To The Championship........ 20 hr SFB PHART 7
News Former Minnesota Vikings assistant fired by the... Jan 12 SFB Pharts 6
Cam Newton Jan 12 SFB phart 54
Who's Next? Jan 8 SFB Phart 8
News Sam Bradford on latest comeback: 'Really hard t... Jan 5 WetRaiderFart 6
Adrian Peterson Jan 4 SFB PHART 80
Fourth Fantasy Football Championship for Viking... Jan 4 SFB PHART 11
More from around the web