Immigration reform making for strange bedfellows

There are 20 comments on the Jan 29, 2013, WTAE-TV Pittsburgh story titled Immigration reform making for strange bedfellows. In it, WTAE-TV Pittsburgh reports that:

CIO President Richard Trumka and Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Tom Donohue are working together to reach an understanding about a guest worker program.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at WTAE-TV Pittsburgh.

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velogeezer

Indianapolis, IN

#167 Feb 11, 2013
Adios cucaracha. Vamenos

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#169 Feb 12, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
Threats and spin are meaningless...we need reasonable answers....anyone can quote Fox....
I'm not using any threats? I'm also not using any spin. I'm also not quoting fox. I'm using my brain.

Why don't you use yours and answer just a few questions of mine instead of sticking your head in the sand?

1. Who do you think pays for all these highly impoverished folks who live near the poverty line to have babies in our hospitals?

2. How much do YOU think this costs?

3. Do you think American citizens who are at or near the poverty line contribute more in taxes than they use in services? If no, why do you feel that granting amnesty to illegal immigrants who are at or near the poverty will lead to them paying more in taxes than they use in services?

4. Do you think an illegal immigrant likely making at or near minimum wage pays enough in taxes to come anywhere close to paying the 10k annually it costs on average just to educate one of their children in public schools. It costs over 120k to educate a child from first to 12th grade on average ... I doubt these people will pay 120k in their lifetime in taxes. They also have a lot more than one kid. This also doesn't even take into account all the other costs they impose on society.

It's already been documented that foreigners who come to this country, even if they are here legally, use welfare programs at a ratio that is far higher than native born Americans. We need to stop importing other people's poverty. It's not good for our country:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/...

If you are just going to contend that I am using scare tactics, maybe, just maybe, you could ACTUALLY use some data to show what I say isn't true, btw

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#170 Feb 12, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text> Do you think American citizens who are at or near the poverty line contribute more in taxes than they use in services? If no, why do you feel that granting amnesty to illegal immigrants who are at or near the poverty will lead to them paying more in taxes than they use in services?
I dunno...I mean the last time we tried this all we got for our money is 4 generations of hard workers that helped to build this nation - so I guess I see your point.

What are you so paranoid about Subby? Do you honestly believe that these migrant farm laborers are going to directly threaten your job? And before you answer, let me throw this out there for you - before we think about deporting all of these immigrants, who do we have other than a new generation of "work to live," 40-hour a week, Generation Y's? Simply ending it today with no fail safe plan will put a serious dent in the economy, IMO. I'm only a couple years away from retirement - so don't ask me to pick the cabbage.

“Reduce immigration levels”

Level 5

Since: Dec 06

Kings Mountain, NC

#171 Feb 12, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not using any threats? I'm also not using any spin. I'm also not quoting fox. I'm using my brain.
Why don't you use yours and answer just a few questions of mine instead of sticking your head in the sand?
1. Who do you think pays for all these highly impoverished folks who live near the poverty line to have babies in our hospitals?
2. How much do YOU think this costs?
3. Do you think American citizens who are at or near the poverty line contribute more in taxes than they use in services? If no, why do you feel that granting amnesty to illegal immigrants who are at or near the poverty will lead to them paying more in taxes than they use in services?
4. Do you think an illegal immigrant likely making at or near minimum wage pays enough in taxes to come anywhere close to paying the 10k annually it costs on average just to educate one of their children in public schools. It costs over 120k to educate a child from first to 12th grade on average ... I doubt these people will pay 120k in their lifetime in taxes. They also have a lot more than one kid. This also doesn't even take into account all the other costs they impose on society.
It's already been documented that foreigners who come to this country, even if they are here legally, use welfare programs at a ratio that is far higher than native born Americans. We need to stop importing other people's poverty. It's not good for our country:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/...
If you are just going to contend that I am using scare tactics, maybe, just maybe, you could ACTUALLY use some data to show what I say isn't true, btw
You are sublime! The Heritage Foundation says "For every dollar an illegal pays in taxes they cost us 3 in services." The idiots in congress have people bamboozled with their "Pay back taxes" crap. THEY DON'T OWE BACK TAXES! Look how many of them scammed the gov't for all these kids they supposedly had? The IRS agent ratted it our and said "The IRS is well aware of it but does nothing." Wait till we have 10 million of them scamming us. What the parasites don't understand is that like Socialism, it only works until you run out of other peoples money. These people have no loyalty to our country. Since Nobama has emboldened them I can't believe the racist remarks I see.

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#173 Feb 12, 2013
Fed Up wrote:
<quoted text>
You are sublime! The Heritage Foundation says "For every dollar an illegal pays in taxes they cost us 3 in services." The idiots in congress have people bamboozled with their "Pay back taxes" crap. THEY DON'T OWE BACK TAXES! Look how many of them scammed the gov't for all these kids they supposedly had? The IRS agent ratted it our and said "The IRS is well aware of it but does nothing." Wait till we have 10 million of them scamming us. What the parasites don't understand is that like Socialism, it only works until you run out of other peoples money. These people have no loyalty to our country. Since Nobama has emboldened them I can't believe the racist remarks I see.
Lumping all immigrants into "parasites" is so hyper-hypocritical of your "racist" remark.

So you're American Indian are you?
velogeezer

Muncie, IN

#174 Feb 12, 2013
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>
Lumping all immigrants into "parasites" is so hyper-hypocritical of your "racist" remark.
So you're American Indian are you?
Great! The old "we are all immigrants except the Indians" saw. That is so lame. That was then, this is now.

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#175 Feb 12, 2013
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>
I dunno...I mean the last time we tried this all we got for our money is 4 generations of hard workers that helped to build this nation - so I guess I see your point.
Iíve already addressed this as well as just about every point youíve ever made. When my ancestors came here, all prior to 1900s, we didnít have a welfare state. When you came as an immigrant you worked and supported yourself or your family or you starved. You werenít able to come here and sponge off of taxpayers and have them subsidize your family life. Outlaw (good luck with that Ö it would be unconstitutional) any of these folks from receiving any welfare benefits and Iíd have little problem with them coming here or being citizens.
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>What are you so paranoid about Subby?
I donít think using logic and facts to point out that these foreign nationals illegally present in our country are a huge burden on our social services makes me paranoid.
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>Do you honestly believe that these migrant farm laborers are going to directly threaten your job?
Nope Ö Iím highly educated and have a degree beyond a college degree. Pretty sure migrant workers wonít be competing with me anytime soonÖ

My concern, once again is the drain they place on welfare programs and our education system. To the extent we are spending money on foreign nationals illegally present in our country, we have less to spend on our own people. I put Americans first, unlike you.

I also donít feel that importing poverty is good for our country, unlike you. We have enough poverty as it is, and Iíd like to do more to help our on people who live in poverty, including opening jobs up to them. How very un-American of me.
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text And before you answer, let me throw this out there for you - before we think about deporting all of these immigrants, who do we have other than a new generation of "work to live," 40-hour a week, Generation Y's? Simply ending it today with no fail safe plan will put a serious dent in the economy, IMO. I'm only a couple years away from retirement - so don't ask me to pick the cabbage.
Iíve already addressed this Ö you phase it in over say 10 years, so as not to shock the system. This will give time for sectors that rely on this workforce to adjust. In combination increase the number of temporary work visas to allow people to come here as needed, but use an employment verification system to prevent folks from working past their visa. Basically make it so hard that even if you wanted to stay here illegally your prospects would be so poor that Mexico looks better.

Youíll never get rid of folks catering to them.

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#176 Feb 12, 2013
Fed Up wrote:
<quoted text>
You are sublime! The Heritage Foundation says "For every dollar an illegal pays in taxes they cost us 3 in services." The idiots in congress have people bamboozled with their "Pay back taxes" crap. THEY DON'T OWE BACK TAXES! Look how many of them scammed the gov't for all these kids they supposedly had? The IRS agent ratted it our and said "The IRS is well aware of it but does nothing." Wait till we have 10 million of them scamming us. What the parasites don't understand is that like Socialism, it only works until you run out of other peoples money. These people have no loyalty to our country. Since Nobama has emboldened them I can't believe the racist remarks I see.
Thanks, lol.

Exactly ... they don't owe taxes because they don't make enough to pay taxes!

10 million is a low end guestimate of how many are here. There are compelling reasons to believe there are closer to 20 million here.

I wouldn't call them parasites and say they have no loyalty, however. I truly think they are looking for a better life and opportunity for the most part and are hard working. It's just that they cost more than the benefits they provide and that is because they are poor and uneducated. This information is from a study (topix won't let me post link):

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

****

That's before Obamacare, which will only add costs and those costs are in 2002 dollars ... costs have gone up.

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#177 Feb 12, 2013
Those numbers don't even include the burden they place on state and local governments or hospitals!

Illegal immigration costs us a lot of money ... money that we could invest in Americans!

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#178 Feb 12, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>Iíve already addressed this Ö you phase it in over say 10 years, so as not to shock the system. This will give time for sectors that rely on this workforce to adjust. In combination increase the number of temporary work visas to allow people to come here as needed, but use an employment verification system to prevent folks from working past their visa. Basically make it so hard that even if you wanted to stay here illegally your prospects would be so poor that Mexico looks better.
Youíll never get rid of folks catering to them.
Like I said - even 10 years isn't going to replace the type of labor these folks perform. Face it, immigrant farm labor is below what us Americans consider "gainful" employment. If farm labor was so popular at the price in which we pay them, don't you think we would've seen a mad rush to the cabbage fields before now?

Besides, I really don't think the immigrant labor issue will be a problem for very much longer - I just read somewhere the other day that Mexican border towns are getting safer - and people are moving back. Once they're gone, then we can take a show of hands for "field generals."

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#179 Feb 12, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
Those numbers don't even include the burden they place on state and local governments or hospitals!
Illegal immigration costs us a lot of money ... money that we could invest in Americans!
And I refuse to invest money in laziness. We have a 3.2+ million job surplus right now in the US and it's growing out of control. Nobody wants the jobs we have now - what makes you think they'll be willing to work a 14-hour day picking cabbage in 110 degree heat?

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#180 Feb 12, 2013
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said - even 10 years isn't going to replace the type of labor these folks perform. Face it, immigrant farm labor is below what us Americans consider "gainful" employment. If farm labor was so popular at the price in which we pay them, don't you think we would've seen a mad rush to the cabbage fields before now?
Besides, I really don't think the immigrant labor issue will be a problem for very much longer - I just read somewhere the other day that Mexican border towns are getting safer - and people are moving back. Once they're gone, then we can take a show of hands for "field generals."
People will work these jobs if wages increase, which they will if there is no longer illegal immigrants to drive down wages. temporary visas and employment verification can also be used to bring workers here as needed, but then to send them back when they are done. We don't NEED illegals.

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#181 Feb 12, 2013
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>
And I refuse to invest money in laziness. We have a 3.2+ million job surplus right now in the US and it's growing out of control. Nobody wants the jobs we have now - what makes you think they'll be willing to work a 14-hour day picking cabbage in 110 degree heat?




BONUS: It doesn't have anchor babies or place a drain on social services.

Level 7

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#182 Feb 12, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
Those numbers don't even include the burden they place on state and local governments or hospitals!
Illegal immigration costs us a lot of money ... money that we could invest in Americans!
We can clean up all those problems, if Congress would quit sitting on their hands..........BUT, we need a workable system to allow foreign workers entry, in order to do the agricultural and meat processing work, that our entitlement spoiled citizens won't approach.....ALSO, it should have a path to citizenship, tied to being law abiding and banned from any taxpayer funding(EBT, welfare, Section 8, etc.).....Also, all welfare, EBT programs, and Section 8 housing assistance, shall be weaned down to near nothing.....

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#183 Feb 13, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
People will work these jobs if wages increase, which they will if there is no longer illegal immigrants to drive down wages. temporary visas and employment verification can also be used to bring workers here as needed, but then to send them back when they are done. We don't NEED illegals.
Your theory borders Georgia's failed attempt of putting probationer to work in the fields.

Face it - you can double the wages of farm labor and no one would take these jobs. It's easy for us to simply type up these answers on our keyboard, but until you actually see the conditions that these people work in, we don't have a clue as to what will work.

“I know where you are,”

Level 8

Since: Jun 08

Right here under my thumb

#184 Feb 13, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
People will work these jobs if wages increase, which they will if there is no longer illegal immigrants to drive down wages. temporary visas and employment verification can also be used to bring workers here as needed, but then to send them back when they are done. We don't NEED illegals.
Sure, but the majority of Americans don't even want the minimum wage increased - how in the world do you plan on just simply waving a magic wand and increasing farm laborer wages?

Do tell.

(Please refer to the current Politix poll at the top of your page)

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#185 Feb 13, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>We can clean up all those problems, if Congress would quit sitting on their hands..........BUT, we need a workable system to allow foreign workers entry, in order to do the agricultural and meat processing work, that our entitlement spoiled citizens won't approach.....ALSO, it should have a path to citizenship, tied to being law abiding and banned from any taxpayer funding(EBT, welfare, Section 8, etc.).....Also, all welfare, EBT programs, and Section 8 housing assistance, shall be weaned down to near nothing.....
I know at least for Medicaid naturalized citizens already have a 5 year wait before they can go on it. I think this may be true for other forms of welfare. This still doesnít mean we donít pay for their medical care when they go to the emergency room. Even despite the 5 year wait folks who immigrate here have significantly higher usage rates of welfare programs than people born here.

The problem is that these folks are poor and uneducated. It is not that they are mooches or lazy. Allowing them to come and live here, but not have any safety net will just create all the disadvantages that used to exist prior to the enactment of a safety net. Do we really want to have two classes of people in this country Ö one who is stuck living like it is the 19th century and the other who enjoys all the benefits of citizenship?

I really feel quite strongly that it is not in this nationís best interest to be importing poverty. Almost every other nation requires that folks who wish to become citizens of their nation provide proof that they will not be a burden on social services. When you have highly impoverished folks, with little education, and NO chance to make much more than minimum wage coming here, by definition they are likely to be a burden on social services. They arenít going to pay that much in taxes, simply because they donít make that much to pay for these services.

If we put America first for once and Americans first for once, the best thing we could do would be to deport these folks, not grant them citizenship, revamp the visa system to allow seasonal workers to come here for the jobs that Americans wonít do, enact strict employment verification laws, and increase wages for other jobs that Americans will do, but wonít do for the wages illegal immigrants will do them for.

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#186 Feb 13, 2013
milwaukee69 wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure, but the majority of Americans don't even want the minimum wage increased - how in the world do you plan on just simply waving a magic wand and increasing farm laborer wages?
Do tell.
(Please refer to the current Politix poll at the top of your page)
I've already been over this with you. You are only looking at one facet of a complex situation. It costs a lot of money to live here, regardless of what you are making per hour. To the extent you don't make enough to live here, other people pay for you.

So, WE, as taxpayers, are already paying them more than the minimum wage. The only one who is paying them the minimum wage is the employer. We, the taxpayer, get stuck making up the difference between that and what it actually costs to live and raise a family in this country.

While the employer pays minimum wage, you, me, and everyone else who pays taxes or has health insurance pays for to educate and provide welfare benefits to their anchor babies ... free school lunches and breakfasts ... we pay for them to have babies in our hospitals ... we pay when they get sick and have to go to the emergency room. When you factor in all these added costs we are already paying them more than minimum wage, but these costs are hidden and not direct. These costs are not included in their paycheck

Not only are we paying them more than minimum wage to them in the form of hidden costs, but because they displace native born people, who are unskilled labor (which we will always have), in the job market or drive down their wages, we end up paying for far more native born people than we would otherwise pay for who are forced to rely on the social safety net because we have this massive pool of foreign nationals who are willing to work for much less per hour than they are (which we as taxpayers subsidize). To make matters worse, they often times take jobs that by their nature CANNOT be shipped offshore/must be done here and could be used as employment for native born unskilled labor.
Mayela

Atlanta, GA

#187 Feb 13, 2013
velogeezer wrote:
Adios cucaracha. Vamenos
Anglo-Saxon people also endured disease and deaths that were common during the medieval period.Typhoid and cholera are some of the many influenzas going around due to human waste getting into the drinking water supplies.https://sites.google. com/site/anglosaxonenglandproj ect/death-and-diseases

Auf Wiedersehen, smallpox, black plague and dysentery. What filth landed on our shores!

Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#189 Feb 13, 2013
Mayela wrote:
<quoted text>
Anglo-Saxon people also endured disease and deaths that were common during the medieval period.Typhoid and cholera are some of the many influenzas going around due to human waste getting into the drinking water supplies.https://sites.google. com/site/anglosaxonenglandproj ect/death-and-diseases
Auf Wiedersehen, smallpox, black plague and dysentery. What filth landed on our shores!
We also gave you the wheel, lol.

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