Lost in the alleged rape and then sui...

Lost in the alleged rape and then suicide of a MU swimmer is the duty to protect all students

There are 102 comments on the The Kansas City Star story from Jan 29, 2014, titled Lost in the alleged rape and then suicide of a MU swimmer is the duty to protect all students. In it, The Kansas City Star reports that:

The apparent shrugging off of university responsibility quickly became one of the most overlooked aspects of the complicated and troubling story of Sasha Menu Courey.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Kansas City Star.

“....VETS”

Level 9

Since: Jan 08

WELCOME HOME

#25 Jan 31, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey drunk, you avoided the issue again, as always. Because you're weak minded and soused.
You were clearly blaming the woman in question while magically, explicitly denying you were blaming the woman. I just mentioned that to you so you would know something is horribly wrong with the way you think.
try reading in stead of moaning ...glad I bother ya , christ you make slack look smart

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#27 Jan 31, 2014
Mr_ Punch wrote:
<quoted text>You watch a lot of that Nacy Grace and Law and Order garbage, don't you?
I don't have a television.
Independent

United States

#28 Jan 31, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
The expulsion fear would come from having done something wrong, like an 18-year-old breaking state law to get drunk, and may also run afoul of school policy. So it is not over the rape, but over things like being drunk, violating some curfew if there is one, etc. The attackers would choose victims who are doing something wrong to hold over them. Would someone report a crime if doing so would implement them in another one?(Though there was a case where a man accused of burglary confessed to a different burglary as their alibi to show they didn't commit the other one.)
Oh, reporting to the cops is not much better. They do their own victim-blaming thing too. But if it makes it to trial, then the other side will certainly pain her up to be very awful things and ruin her reputation. And what school would have her if she is big enough of a "trouble maker?" The press could get hold of school B for having a student who made a lot of "trouble" for school A. Nobody really wants a "snitch" around them.
And what you say about vigilance is a last resort stop gap measure, and often the only one we have.
You list many hurdles to even reporting the rape. Let alone stopping the rape itself, there are many problems to overcome. I think it will be an impossible task. I believe vigilance should be the first resort, not the last.

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#29 Jan 31, 2014
Independent wrote:
<quoted text>
You list many hurdles to even reporting the rape. Let alone stopping the rape itself, there are many problems to overcome. I think it will be an impossible task. I believe vigilance should be the first resort, not the last.
It is just another tool of a handful then. Still, why should SHE be the one who is expected to have the full burden when it is someone else doing the deed? So I am supposed to be responsible for your inability to not commit a crime against me?

And lets face it, will vigilance always help? Many get raped as part of a burglary. Should women be afraid to sleep in their own homes because of who might come in through their own window or door in the middle of the night?

Even in a riskier situation, just being aware is not enough. Experts supposedly classify rapists in 3 categories. There are the angry/retaliatory rapists, power rapists, and sexual sadists, and probably listed in the order of threat from least to most. With the first type, there might be a 50% chance of fighting them off. For the 2nd type, it is more of a power trip, so they won't give up as easy, and the last only wants to see others suffer and is not above torturing for hours before killing them in some very heinous way. If you are unfortunate enough to encounter the sadist, complying is not an option -- they won't let you go no matter what, and fighting might not be good enough, so lethal force would be about the only hope.

Again, I see we need to tackle society's attitudes and college culture. It is often a Catch-22 situation. It is under-prosecuted because women feel they won't get justice and because DA's have a hard time proving a lot of these cases, and not winning the cases there is no hope for the victims and prosecutors, You won't go if you can't win, and you can't win if you don't go, and attackers take advantage of that.

I will say I am no expert, and there are many facets I don't understand and likely never will.
Independent

United States

#30 Jan 31, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
It is just another tool of a handful then. Still, why should SHE be the one who is expected to have the full burden when it is someone else doing the deed? So I am supposed to be responsible for your inability to not commit a crime against me?
That is not what I said or implied. Nobody is responsible for the actions of another.
We all carry the full burden of our own safety and well being.
There is no easy solution. If one chooses to trust that everyone else is watching out for them they may have a rude awakening.

You have great ideas, but good luck getting society to go along.

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#31 Jan 31, 2014
Independent wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not what I said or implied. Nobody is responsible for the actions of another.
We all carry the full burden of our own safety and well being.
There is no easy solution. If one chooses to trust that everyone else is watching out for them they may have a rude awakening.
You have great ideas, but good luck getting society to go along.
Who said I was saying you said anything? I am capable of moving on from a point and then expanding the topic. I disagree with your premise, and I never said anything about trusting others to look out after them. Really, nobody should need to trust others to help them if we eliminated things to begin with.

I wonder at times if society would do better as a matriarchy and where men are punished and disempowered to the point of not even feeling secure enough to rape. If any man is capable of raping, we could build a case saying that men have too much power in society and cannot be trusted with it. But generally, matriarchy is a sign that a society is on the way out, and usually, such a land gets conquered.

We should be getting harder with the rapists, not their victims. The rapists are the only ones that need to change. Rather destroying women to the level of men, and forcing them to think like men, everyone who has even the least capability of rape needs to be the ones brought down, chastised, offered help, and corrected. We need a society where passivity is awarded and aggressiveness is discouraged and punished.

Oh, I may sound like an idealist, but I'm not a bleeding heart by any means.
Independent

United States

#32 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
Oh, I may sound like an idealist, but I'm not a bleeding heart by any means.
I believe most people are idealists, most of us would love nothing more than to live in a safe society. Maybe in the next life.
Islander

Livonia, NY

#33 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said I was saying you said anything? I am capable of moving on from a point and then expanding the topic. I disagree with your premise, and I never said anything about trusting others to look out after them. Really, nobody should need to trust others to help them if we eliminated things to begin with.
I wonder at times if society would do better as a matriarchy and where men are punished and disempowered to the point of not even feeling secure enough to rape. If any man is capable of raping, we could build a case saying that men have too much power in society and cannot be trusted with it. But generally, matriarchy is a sign that a society is on the way out, and usually, such a land gets conquered.
We should be getting harder with the rapists, not their victims. The rapists are the only ones that need to change. Rather destroying women to the level of men, and forcing them to think like men, everyone who has even the least capability of rape needs to be the ones brought down, chastised, offered help, and corrected. We need a society where passivity is awarded and aggressiveness is discouraged and punished.
Oh, I may sound like an idealist, but I'm not a bleeding heart by any means.
The flaw in your logic is that secure men and woman are not the ones who typically rape. The fact is it is the insecure cowards who feel the compulsion to impose their will on others and that is the root of their malfunction as a person. Secure and confident people do not have such desires. Only cowards rape others and it has nothing to do with sexual gratification. It is all about feeling the fleeting sense of power and dominance they get from it that replaces their cowardly feelings of ineptness and inferiority that they have.
My opinion being said. I hate them just as much as you do.
Islander

Livonia, NY

#35 Feb 1, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
The flaw in her logic is that there is no logic to be found, and she'll be saying the exact opposite - to the extent you can or care to discern what she's saying here - in another thread, or maybe the same thread, before long.
I've had a few Topix talks with SG. Even though me and her disagree, I think she is intelligent and has a basis for her thoughts. I've even ragged on her a few times, maybe even overly harshly. I have also come to the conclusion that me and her might not be in such disagreement over some of the things we gone at it with each other. That maybe we are both not able to convey our points to each other in ways we fully understand each others true point. That is just the nature of the written word sometimes.

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#36 Feb 1, 2014
Islander wrote:
<quoted text>The flaw in your logic is that secure men and woman are not the ones who typically rape. The fact is it is the insecure cowards who feel the compulsion to impose their will on others and that is the root of their malfunction as a person. Secure and confident people do not have such desires. Only cowards rape others and it has nothing to do with sexual gratification. It is all about feeling the fleeting sense of power and dominance they get from it that replaces their cowardly feelings of ineptness and inferiority that they have.
My opinion being said. I hate them just as much as you do.
I consider it disrespectful to ever say anyone or their logic has flaws, and I've never done that to you, nor anyone else. I already said the hypothetical situations I gave would never work. And I already made it clear that rape was not about sexual gratification when I gave the 3 types.

I never said that secure people ever rape, though you should look at the research on bullying which says that bullies typically have more self-esteem than their normal classmates who don't bully. They often feel they are better than others and thus entitled to act that way. I see the two topics as parallel to each other in nature, with similar enough underlying dynamics.

Forcible rape is a part of masculinity, so only a few "women" would ever do that. People confuse the issue by bringing up statutory "rape" which is an equal opportunity crime.

So what if the character defect of masculinity were beaten out of everyone? If would-be rapists were beaten into submission nonstop as a child until their masculinity was fractured, and they felt too bad to get out of bed, let alone feel they were even capable of raping, would they rape? It is like with bullying. What would happen if they were beaten to an inch of their life each time they did so, and to the point where they constantly felt in fear of their lives and had NO interest in socializing with others whatsoever? Their need to have power over ANYONE other than themselves needs to be permanently taken from them. Maybe that would be repression, and they would be sick their entire lives of various neuroses, but society would be better off in just treating one, not their dozens of victims. But no, there has to be a better way.

I don't hate rapists nor bullies, just what they do, and the sickness that drives them.

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#37 Feb 1, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
The flaw in her logic is that there is no logic to be found, and she'll be saying the exact opposite - to the extent you can or care to discern what she's saying here - in another thread, or maybe the same thread, before long.
Just that when there is a different context. Spraying pesticide may be appropriate when there are bugs involved, but not on children. You have to learn the subtle differences between words and realize that life has a balance and that what is not appropriate within one context is appropriate within another.

You must like my posts, or you would not be wasting tons of your time trying to follow them. A reasonable person would say they dislike someone and would just move on, not follow, harass, bully, stalk, etc., as those all consume too much personal power and energy.

When will you realize that Topix is just one huge toilet? You drop your mess, pull the handle, and forget it (except in real life, there is a sewer bill). You don't try to fish out fecal matter from 2 weeks ago to see if it looks like the stool someone just left.
Independent

United States

#38 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
I consider it disrespectful to ever say anyone or their logic has flaws, and I've never done that to you, nor anyone else.
No need to explain yourself, some of us actually understand and enjoy conversing with you.

I find, and always have found, that you bring an interesting perspective and new ways of looking at things on the topic. We may not always agree....but it is fun anyway.

:^D

Spokaloonian

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#39 Feb 1, 2014
Independent wrote:
<quoted text>
No need to explain yourself, some of us actually understand and enjoy conversing with you.
I find, and always have found, that you bring an interesting perspective and new ways of looking at things on the topic. We may not always agree....but it is fun anyway.
:^D
Spokaloonian
Explaining oneself can be a part of being oneself, but you are right that nobody should have to feel like they have to.

Thank you for your compliments. We might not agree, but it is fun as you say.
Islander

United States

#40 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
I consider it disrespectful to ever say anyone or their logic has flaws, and I've never done that to you, nor anyone else. I already said the hypothetical situations I gave would never work. And I already made it clear that rape was not about sexual gratification when I gave the 3 types.
I never said that secure people ever rape, though you should look at the research on bullying which says that bullies typically have more self-esteem than their normal classmates who don't bully. They often feel they are better than others and thus entitled to act that way. I see the two topics as parallel to each other in nature, with similar enough underlying dynamics.
Forcible rape is a part of masculinity, so only a few "women" would ever do that. People confuse the issue by bringing up statutory "rape" which is an equal opportunity crime.
So what if the character defect of masculinity were beaten out of everyone? If would-be rapists were beaten into submission nonstop as a child until their masculinity was fractured, and they felt too bad to get out of bed, let alone feel they were even capable of raping, would they rape? It is like with bullying. What would happen if they were beaten to an inch of their life each time they did so, and to the point where they constantly felt in fear of their lives and had NO interest in socializing with others whatsoever? Their need to have power over ANYONE other than themselves needs to be permanently taken from them. Maybe that would be repression, and they would be sick their entire lives of various neuroses, but society would be better off in just treating one, not their dozens of victims. But no, there has to be a better way.
I don't hate rapists nor bullies, just what they do, and the sickness that drives them.
Sorry if you feel disrespected by that but I just wanted to put my feelings on this issue as well. I'm not sayng you are flawed. Thing is though masculinity is no more a character flaw than femininity is. It is not masculinity that is to blame. It is the toxic and corrupted view of masculinity that might be to blame. There is nothing masculine about raping or bullying. A real man who is secure in his masculinity never engages in these things. Bullies and rapist only have high self-esteem as long as they are able to rape and bully. Put a bully in his or her place and their self-esteem plumets and they are crying bigger tears than any of their victims ever did. I truly hate them as much as what they do. They find the weakest victim in the most vulnerable state they can and transpose themselves on them in order to feel a sense of power in order to counter their insecurities. They know what they do is wrong and still do it in a selfish act of hate.
Beating possible rapist would in my opinion only create more of them I'm afraid. Think about it. You are creating a weak willed and frightful person doing so. Now that coupled with one or both of these scenarios could be quite dangerous.1) if it is a mother doing this, the person is being brought up with a fear and/or hatred of woman. If you have an angry and insecure person with that fear/hatred of women, it is likely they would act out by raping women out of revenge along with their desire to overpower.
2) If it is a father who is doing so we are creating the same thing but instilling the idea that men are supposed to beat and hurt those that are weaker.
Islander

United States

#41 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
Explaining oneself can be a part of being oneself, but you are right that nobody should have to feel like they have to.
Thank you for your compliments. We might not agree, but it is fun as you say.
Hey for the record. I feel the same way as Independent does. We have disagreed but I still like the talking and thought points from you and actually do respect you as a poster. Not something I can say about some who's opinions I do agree with but maybe not for the reasons they hold said opinions.
Plus, like I said before, I'm not so sure we totally disagree with each other as much as we both are not able to fully understand or communicate our views to each other through a screen. It may just be the way word things and the way the other reads it that causes confusion on on or boths parts. That sometimes seems to be the nature of the beast with this form of communication.

Stay Spotted
FTW

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#44 Feb 1, 2014
Islander wrote:
<quoted text>Sorry if you feel disrespected by that but I just wanted to put my feelings on this issue as well. I'm not saying you are flawed. Thing is though masculinity is no more a character flaw than femininity is. It is not masculinity that is to blame. It is the toxic and corrupted view of masculinity that might be to blame. There is nothing masculine about raping or bullying. A real man who is secure in his masculinity never engages in these things. Bullies and rapist only have high self-esteem as long as they are able to rape and bully. Put a bully in his or her place and their self-esteem plummets and they are crying bigger tears than any of their victims ever did. I truly hate them as much as what they do. They find the weakest victim in the most vulnerable state they can and transpose themselves on them in order to feel a sense of power in order to counter their insecurities. They know what they do is wrong and still do it in a selfish act of hate.
Beating possible rapist would in my opinion only create more of them I'm afraid. Think about it. You are creating a weak willed and frightful person doing so. Now that coupled with one or both of these scenarios could be quite dangerous.1) if it is a mother doing this, the person is being brought up with a fear and/or hatred of woman. If you have an angry and insecure person with that fear/hatred of women, it is likely they would act out by raping women out of revenge along with their desire to overpower.
2) If it is a father who is doing so we are creating the same thing but instilling the idea that men are supposed to beat and hurt those that are weaker.
Excellent points! Thank you for your clarifications too.

I don't hate people because of their behavior, just their behaviors. Would you hate a cancer patient, or just their tumors (and maybe the medical community that exploits them)?

What if the rapists had their self-esteem and concept totally destroyed from what they have?

It is sort of like knowledge. On some topics, total ignorance is better than partial knowledge. Take bigotry. If someone is too ignorant to even know what the targets are or to even notice differences in others, they would be no threat to such persons. Likewise, if someone knew the complete motivations and drives of another, would they mistreat them? I see self-esteem a bit the same way. A little might be more dangerous than none at all, but a considerable amount is better than either. If someone hates themselves so much that they cannot get out of bed and must be on suicide watch constantly, how many people will they rape or bully?

You might disagree with my comments on masculinity, and you are right that it is an unhealthy variation of it. However, when the scope is limited to forcible rape (not statutory offenses, molestation, nor non-penetrative sexual abuse), then why do many more men do it than women? There has to be something wrong to create this divide. Going with your theory, does that mean that males are naturally much more insecure that females? I see the "male ego" as a liability, or at least a responsibility. I believe there are brain differences between genders. And look at kids. Guess which gender are more likely to stutter, or more likely to need medication to sit still and learn?
Islander

United States

#45 Feb 1, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
This has little to do with what I posted, speaking of intelligence. Read what I actually said.
I did read what you said and my reply has everything to do with what you said. I disagree with her a lot but I don't feel as harshly about her as you do. Sorry brother.

“The Spotted Girl News Network”

Level 8

Since: Apr 09

Spotted World

#47 Feb 1, 2014
I think I know a way to tinker with the genome to change the natures between genders and create more equality. It is possible that in the original creation, The "Y-chromosome" looked more like the "X-chromosome." There are only maybe 3 genes different that cause sex-differentiation. The genes missing on the Y-chromosome that are on the X have nothing directly to do with gender. They involve the vision, prefrontal cortex of the brain, etc.

Since men have only one copy of genes related to certain areas of the brain, then that's why they get mid-life crisis and are more likely to have certain forms of dementia, as well as ADHD, and the worst forms of autism. Having a second set may actually cause more tissue to be there.

In color blindness (most forms are expressed on the sex chromosome), the males with it will get the broken copy from their mother, and none from the father to offset it. But in some varieties, a woman carrying the altered gene might give an advantage of providing a 4th type of cone in the eyes. They would have a normal copy and an altered copy, and they are possibly co-dominant. But this has not been confirmed in humans.

But what if we took an X-Chromosome and replaced the 3 sex differentiation genes with ones from a Y-Chromosome and then put the "male X" with a normal X and then did a standard fertility procedure from there?

“....VETS”

Level 9

Since: Jan 08

WELCOME HOME

#48 Feb 1, 2014
ha ha ha ha ..MR Spock ... lost in space
Islander

United States

#49 Feb 1, 2014
Spotted Girl wrote:
I think I know a way to tinker with the genome to change the natures between genders and create more equality. It is possible that in the original creation, The "Y-chromosome" looked more like the "X-chromosome." There are only maybe 3 genes different that cause sex-differentiation. The genes missing on the Y-chromosome that are on the X have nothing directly to do with gender. They involve the vision, prefrontal cortex of the brain, etc.
Since men have only one copy of genes related to certain areas of the brain, then that's why they get mid-life crisis and are more likely to have certain forms of dementia, as well as ADHD, and the worst forms of autism. Having a second set may actually cause more tissue to be there.
In color blindness (most forms are expressed on the sex chromosome), the males with it will get the broken copy from their mother, and none from the father to offset it. But in some varieties, a woman carrying the altered gene might give an advantage of providing a 4th type of cone in the eyes. They would have a normal copy and an altered copy, and they are possibly co-dominant. But this has not been confirmed in humans.
But what if we took an X-Chromosome and replaced the 3 sex differentiation genes with ones from a Y-Chromosome and then put the "male X" with a normal X and then did a standard fertility procedure from there?
Well that sounds well horrible. All genetic engineering does. Not to mention females have their own forms of mental abnormalities and problems that they are more prone too. Hell if were going to go thast route. Let's get rid of the X and Y gene sex orientation. There are other sex genes in nature. Lets just engineer ourselves around a whole neww set of sex genes. Oh yeah because if we engineer our genes then the outcomes are no longer true humans. Just human like monsters.

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