Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#121116 Aug 28, 2014
dragoon70056 wrote:
<quoted text>
Chuck Norris.
Ick. He's more like Satan, except real.

Shame, as I still think Chuck Norris facts are mildly funny. Oh well.

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#121117 Aug 28, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
what evidence do you have that the universe created itself? a thought or a theory(which cannot be tested or replicated). there is no solid scientific evidence. it all falls on thoughts and beliefs.
some believe the BBT and some believe in a creator.
Any question about the universe creating itself is senseless and superfluous because, first, the word "create" is wrong and, second, the idea that the universe is self-containing is only one out of many rival theories, like the multiverse and an everlasting universe that expands, rebounds to a very dense state of energy, re-expands etc.

For the BBT there is at least compelling empirical evidence and for God there is not even a shred of evidence.

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#121118 Aug 28, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
I said where did it come from, evolve is not a source! tree rings! where did the information for the tree come from?
Already answered many times, esp. by Polymath.
For once in your life: DARE to go into his arguments and just stop copycatting your own restricted repertoire of dully questions.
BE A MAN.

Since: Oct 08

Alpharetta, GA

#121119 Aug 28, 2014
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn. You fruitloops are priceless.
thanks.....Captain Crunch is pretty good too.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#121120 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
it will be easy for the muslims to take the US over, at least they wont have any trouble with the athiests....the athiests don't have anything to defend, piece of cake....a handful of scimitar swirling muslims will lop off the heads of the athiests, heck the athiests will line up for their turn. Good thing most of the people living in the South are believers, it will take longer for the muslims to destroy us.
Sure atheists have something to defend - the First Amendment. Most American fundies want that destroyed.

Happened across this recently, mildly interesting:

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/25/calling_the_c...

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#121121 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
it will be easy for the muslims to take the US over, at least they wont have any trouble with the athiests....the athiests don't have anything to defend, piece of cake....a handful of scimitar swirling muslims will lop off the heads of the athiests, heck the athiests will line up for their turn. Good thing most of the people living in the South are believers, it will take longer for the muslims to destroy us.
Perhaps the best thing that the atheist, agnostic and RATIONAL theists (Christian, Muslim and otherwise) can do is to sit back and let all you "God-fearing, gun-totin', the 'still-beating heart of my enemy in my teeth' Christians" and the "scimitar swirling muslims" destroy each other!

The rest of us will sit on the sidelines, and shake our heads at your foolishness.

Your idea of "holy" is a twisted characterization of what the word means to those of us not so indoctrinated. Enjoy your stay in hell.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#121122 Aug 28, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure atheists have something to defend - the First Amendment. Most American fundies want that destroyed.
Happened across this recently, mildly interesting:
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/25/calling_the_c...
If you'll pardon the use of the phrase: "Thank God".

Since: Oct 08

Alpharetta, GA

#121123 Aug 28, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure atheists have something to defend - the First Amendment. Most American fundies want that destroyed.
Happened across this recently, mildly interesting:
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/25/calling_the_c...
Sorry Mr. The Dude, cant click on links in topix, too many weirdos and their viruses.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#121124 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Mr. The Dude, cant click on links in topix, too many weirdos and their viruses.
Google the headline:

"Atheists have their number: How the Christian right is hastening religionís decline "

Research suggests Americans raised in Christian households are increasingly shunning the faith of their parents

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#121125 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Mr. The Dude, cant click on links in topix, too many weirdos and their viruses.
Salon - while liberal - is safe and not weirdos.
TheHotdaylight

Hemet, CA

#121126 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Mr. The Dude, cant click on links in topix, too many weirdos and their viruses.
I WILL VOUCH FR THE LINK. I have Salon.com saved to my favorites.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121127 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, you asked about the universe before, not the earth. You do realize they are quite different things, right? Also that the Earth is only about a third the age of the universe?
<quoted text>
Your phrase 'created itself' is meaningless. The Big Bang theory is a well-tested description of the expansion and changes in our universe from a very early time. We *know* that the laws of physics as we understand them break down if we go back to very small fractions of a second into this expansion. Because of that, any 'cause' for the universe isn't testable at this point. But there are several good possibilities (all untested):
1. Time starts at the same point as the universe, so the universe is uncaused.
2. There was a previous, contracting universe before ours along with a 'Big Bounce'. This is the prediction of Loop Quantum Gravity. That previous universe existed infinitely into the past and was hence uncaused.
3. There is a larger multiverse and our universe is a very small, four dimensional (three space, one time) part of this higher dimensional structure (11 dimensions seems to be correct for the math to work). This is the picture obtained in string theories. There are two main variants of this one:
3a. The universe is a result of a quantum fluctuation and is hence uncaused.
3b. The universe is the result of the collision of 'branes' in this multiverse.
It is also the case that time, as it exists in the multiverse may have little or nothing to do with time as it exists in our universe. The multiverse as a whole would be uncaused.
correct should have said universe not earth.

1) of course
2) we have already discussed this . you said you doubt it
3) we have already discussed multi-universe and again you said you doubt it.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121128 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
There is information whenever there is interaction of matter with itself. The way that atoms react to each other carries and *is* information. The fact that an oxygen atom will react differently to hydrogen than a carbon atom will *is* information.
In other words, information existed LONG before life came on the scene. The very molecules that make up the universe are filled with information. For example, a water molecule is information that water exists in the environment. Another molecule that reacts with water can carry information about the existence of that water by its reaction. That is how we can test for water in an environment.
The point is that information is inherent in causal reactions: any time two things interact and change each other, their new condition is information about that previous reaction.
before first life there was nothing but chemicals. are you suggesting chemicals gave life information?
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#121129 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
it will be easy for the muslims to take the US over, at least they wont have any trouble with the athiests....the athiests don't have anything to defend, piece of cake....a handful of scimitar swirling muslims will lop off the heads of the athiests, heck the athiests will line up for their turn. Good thing most of the people living in the South are believers, it will take longer for the muslims to destroy us.
.
Not if they outlaw guns.
.
I wouldn't count on the atheists to line up, I think they will fight or convert.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121130 Aug 28, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I don't recall telling wondering my educational background a month or so ago. I do recall telling replaytime this in a post he made some months ago. Wondering wasn't even posting on this forum at the time. He made a post some time ago claiming he is some sort of engineer. I don't believe his claim.
yes you did. same as poly did, chimney did, JmBrazil did and others did. I do think JMBrazil is the one who said to me something like "wondering we have told you our education and credentials so it is your turn to tell us yours." i believe that was over 2 months ago.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121131 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The Big Bang theory is a scientific theory that describes the expansion and changes of state of the universe. The fact of that expansion is well proved by evidence ranging from red-shift data to the background radiation. That the universe was once much hotter and denser than it is now is also established by the evidence. That is was hot and dense enough for nuclear reactions to happen *everywhere*, not just in the interiors of (not-yet existing) stars is also established by the evidence.
The 'standard' Big Bang theory does not address the 'cause' of the universe at all. In fact, the classical theory has time itself (and hence causality) beginning with the universe.
The problem is that we *know* the laws of physics as we currently understand them will fail in some way if we push to very small fractions of a second into the current expansion phase. At some point, effects from quantum gravity *must* become relevant and we simply do not have a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have a lot of conjectures about such a theory. Those conjectures say things relevant to the beginning of the universe, but they tend to say different things depending on which theory you use.
So, we know the Big Bang model is correct and valid in the sense that the universe is expanding from a much hotter and denser state. We know that this description is valid to within a millisecond of the start of that expansion. We simply do not know what happened before that. And it may well be meaningless to ask what happened before the universe because time likely is co-existent with the universe.
Now, you like to use the phrase 'caused itself'. That is contradictory and meaningless. Causes always precede effects. But it *is* possible, and even likely that the universe is 'uncaused': there simply is no cause for the universe as a whole. This would be the case if time started a finite distance into the past and the universe is co-existent with time.
you can say what you want. yes we know the universe is expanding but we really don't know what caused/created/started the universe. it could have been a singularity or it could have been 1millionth it current size. we don't know is the most honest answer anyone can give.

funny you keep saying uncaused. heating up/expanding would be a cause.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121132 Aug 28, 2014
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>That was explained, practically in baby-talk, in the video.
Apparently you didn't watch it.
That's disappointing - but not really surprising.
your are correct. I do not watch to many youtube videos.
wondering

Sunset, TX

#121133 Aug 28, 2014
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
You can argue over the meaning of evolution if you want, bottom line for me is change is limited. We are not seeing the change required to account for the diversity or complexity of life on this planet in 5 billion years.
.
We have been culturing bacteria in labs for over 150 years. In this time we have had approx 4 million generations of bacteria. We have not seen any change to something else which must happen for evolution to explain what we have now.(Complex multi-celled organisms) At some point we have to go from single celled to multi-celled, then celled dedicated to a certain function. If we have had no such change in 4 million generations, how long is needed for a chimp like animal to turn into a human at 15 years per generation? 60 million years? What about 24 years per generation as we see now in chimps? 96 million years? We are already back into the Mesozoic era. Are there any fossils of a chimp like ancestor to be found?
.
I believe G-d created all living things after their kind. Any minute changes that have happened is part of the original design's ability to adapt. But this is limited. A cat cannot change into a dog no matter how much it needs to adapt. This is called extinction.
same question;
"you don't believe there can be enough minute changes over time to account for the complexity required to add a new structure (like a wing from a limb)"
where do you think the "limb" itself came from? do you think the limb was always there or through changes it evolved to be a limb?

you say you believe god created all living things after their kind. what kind did he create them after if their kind did not exist until he created them?

Since: Oct 08

Alpharetta, GA

#121134 Aug 28, 2014
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Not if they outlaw guns.
.
I wouldn't count on the atheists to line up, I think they will fight or convert.
good call....since they are known to be almost muslim already, they will just agree to switch teams and praise be to allah.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121135 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
athiests are scary people....who do they pray to at night before bedtime?
Gods are like monsters that live under your bed, which ones do you look for before you get in bed if you don't believe in monsters under your bed?

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