Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 205331 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

KeepCalmNcarryON

Los Angeles, CA

#120250 Aug 17, 2014
It should also be noted that really good infrared detectors can detect cold things that are colder than other cold things JUST AS WELL as they detect warm things that are warmer than other warm things.
BTW I was a little off on my Cassini news, there have been closer examinations of the geysers on Encaledus !
http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/july/cassini-s...

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120251 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
wrong!!! the chemicals mixing are the reaction which produced life. not the cause. you are smart enough to know this.
How is that NOT a cause? The chemicals coming together, getting mixed in the right way *is* the cause of life.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120252 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
again chemicals mixing is a "REACTION" not a "CAUSE". you do know there is a difference don;t you?
The chemicals react when they are mixed. The mixing of the chemicals is the cause of the subsequent reaction, i.e, life.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120253 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
i cant really believe you want to play this game but lets do it
1) what caused chemicals?
Depends on the particular chemical and how far back you want to go. Many of the chemicals appear on comets and are produced there. the basic elements are produced, for the most part, in stars or supernova.
2) what chemicals were needed to cause life?
Primarily amino acids, lipids, nucleic acids, water, etc.
3) what caused those certain chemicals?
The reaction of other chemicals like ammonia, methane, hydrogen cyanide, etc with electrical discharges (lightning).
4) what caused those certain chemicals to mix and interact?
Well, they react whenever they are mixed. Like I said, electrical discharges help the process, UV light from the early sun would help the process, repetitive drying and re-wetting helps the formation of polymers.
5) what caused those certain chemicals to become alive?
you want more or is this enough?
Again, life *is* a complex collection of chemical reactions. The chemicals 'become alive' when they catalyze certain types of catabolism or anabolism (breaking down or building up) of the chemicals available in a cyclic process ultimately driven by light from the sun.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120254 Aug 17, 2014
bc7355a wrote:
<quoted text>
Who made the Universe
Why do you think a 'who' is involved? Why do you think it has a cause at all?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120255 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
"Take vinegar and baking soda. Now mix the two together,... right there you gave the cause which is you. you mixed them.
OK, but if gravirty is driving thew vinegar downhill into a location with baking soda, would you say that the gravity is the cause of the reaction?
what was the cause that mixed the chemicals to produce the reaction we call life? there isn't one. therefore it is uncaused.
Wrong. There isn't a *single* cause: there are hundreds if not thousands. Gravity, electrical discharge, previous reactions, etc. These are ALL causes.

You seem to think that the only possible causes are consciously acting ones.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120256 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
correct. it is uncaused. same as the chemicals coming together and life arising. it was also uncaused. thanks for proving my point.
Wrong, completely wrong. The cause of those reactions are the fact that those chemicals came together via natural processes. Those processes *are* the cause.

Do you think something is uncaused simply because no consciousness caused it?

“Wrath”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Is revenant

#120257 Aug 17, 2014
KeepCalmNcarryON wrote:
<quoted text> I know about that and you're right > the primary mission is to look further
out/back in time and be able to filter out the CMB by extremely high resolution, so
there are other discussions in play as to the possible uses of the James Webb as it is supposed to have by far the highest resolution capabilities of any facility now operating, I guess specifically in the infrared wavelengths??
Anyway, seems somewhat reasonable, so it's discussed by the NASA scientists that are sending it up there and in any good article or source on the James Webb Space Telescope.
http://jwst.nasa.gov/about.html

This line links you to the specifics of it's instruments ...

There will be four science instruments on Webb: the Near InfraRed Camera (NIRCam), the Near InfraRed Spectrograph (NIRSpec), the Mid-InfraRed Instrument (MIRI), and the Fine Guidance Sensor/ Near InfraRed Imager and Slitless Spectrograph (FGS-NIRISS). Webb's instruments will be designed to work primarily in the infrared range of the electromagnetic spectrum, with some capability in the visible range. It will be sensitive to light from 0.6 to 28 micrometers in wavelength.
wondering

Morris, OK

#120258 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong, completely wrong. The cause of those reactions are the fact that those chemicals came together via natural processes. Those processes *are* the cause.
Do you think something is uncaused simply because no consciousness caused it?
uncaused adj: 1) not brought into existence by any cause; spontaneous or natural.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/uncaused

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120259 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
uncaused adj: 1) not brought into existence by any cause; spontaneous or natural.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/uncaused
I don't see uncaused and spontaneous to be synonyms. Getting definitions like this from a dictionary tends to ignore subtleties that are important.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120260 Aug 17, 2014
un•caused (&#652;n&#712;k&#5 96;zd)

adj.
without an antecedent cause.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120261 Aug 17, 2014
cause (kôz)
n.
1.
a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.
b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result.

So conditions classify as causes.

“Help religion science wander”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

into the night.

#120262 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see uncaused and spontaneous to be synonyms. Getting definitions like this from a dictionary tends to ignore subtleties that are important.
I agree. Especially in this case, it unnecessarily ties the discussion to a general and not a technical definition. Besides, natural causes are a cause. Spontaneous can imply that for no reason at all something happened and in this discussion there is a reason.
wondering

Morris, OK

#120263 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see uncaused and spontaneous to be synonyms. Getting definitions like this from a dictionary tends to ignore subtleties that are important.
look at it this way. lets leave uncaused out of the mix(no pun intended)

mixing caused life which leaves you overlooking the fact that there was no cause for those chemicals to mix. it just happened.
1) the chemicals mixing had no cause or reason
2) after they mixed life arose(the reaction)

do you think that the chemicals mixing which the reaction became life were:
1) deliberate
2) planned
3) intended
4) premeditated

nope it happened naturally, spontaneously. there was no cause. it just happened and from that just happening life arose(the reaction)

the way you are looking at it is that chemicals mixing caused life which leaves you overlooking the fact that there was no cause for those chemicals to mix. it just happened.
1) the chemicals mixing had no cause or reason
2) after they mixed life arose(the reaction)

“Wrath”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Is revenant

#120264 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see uncaused and spontaneous to be synonyms. Getting definitions like this from a dictionary tends to ignore subtleties that are important.

I see many things caused by the old determination in physics of...
Anything that can happen will happen, if given enough time and as long as it does not have to break physical laws to do so.
So life and the universe, can be explained as this being their cause.
It's not a specific cause, but one of probability. It seems all of existence is somewhat ruled by this type probabilistic inevitability it's not easy to accept but possible to understand.
Creationists will never be able to understand or accept this, they have the need for a cosmic director of all things. Insomuch reasoning they limit the scope and ability of such a creator.
wondering

Morris, OK

#120265 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
un•caused (&#652;n&#712;k&#5 96;zd)
adj.
without an antecedent cause.
antecedent - something coming before: something that happens or exists before something else;
with this definition we can say that TBB which happened first, which led to those chemicals that led to life arising, is the cause of life and not the chemicals being TBB came before those chemicals.

it is all a word game.

do you think the universe was caused or uncaused?
wondering

Morris, OK

#120266 Aug 17, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
How is that NOT a cause? The chemicals coming together, getting mixed in the right way *is* the cause of life.
i did not see this one. "getting mixed in the right way". what do you mean by getting mixed in the right way? mixed in the right way almost sounds planned

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120267 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
look at it this way. lets leave uncaused out of the mix(no pun intended)
mixing caused life which leaves you overlooking the fact that there was no cause for those chemicals to mix. it just happened.
1) the chemicals mixing had no cause or reason
They had no reason, but they did have a cause. There was not a single cause for all the mixing, but there *were* causes, such as the action of gravity, or of the natural forces between the atoms or molecules, or the hitting of comets.
2) after they mixed life arose(the reaction)
do you think that the chemicals mixing which the reaction became life were:
1) deliberate
2) planned
3) intended
4) premeditated
nope it happened naturally, spontaneously. there was no cause. it just happened and from that just happening life arose(the reaction)
And now we get to the heart of the matter. Yes, it happened spontaneously *and* there was a cause for it. No, it was not pre-meditated or intentional, but there *were* causes: the forces of nature.
the way you are looking at it is that chemicals mixing caused life which leaves you overlooking the fact that there was no cause for those chemicals to mix. it just happened.
it happened because of thew natural laws that applied: gravity, electromagnetic forces,etc. Those were causes even though they happen spontaneously.

What you seem to miss is that it is possible for something to be spontaneous and still be caused by the conditions that were present before it happened.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120268 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
antecedent - something coming before: something that happens or exists before something else;
with this definition we can say that TBB which happened first, which led to those chemicals that led to life arising, is the cause of life and not the chemicals being TBB came before those chemicals.
it is all a word game.
do you think the universe was caused or uncaused?
I think that the universe was uncaused. That doesn't prevent events within the universe being caused. In particular, life was caused by a fairly large number of separate causes, from collisions of comets with the Earth, to gravity acting to mix chemicals, to lightning providing the sparks to produce certain reactions.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#120269 Aug 17, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
i did not see this one. "getting mixed in the right way". what do you mean by getting mixed in the right way? mixed in the right way almost sounds planned
Not at all. All that is required is that the chemicals involved be mixed in the right proportions. That happened spontaneously and via natural processes, but was caused by those processes. Why you think there had to be an intention involved is beyond me.

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