Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 223384 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

“Denny Crain”

Level 8

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#116601 Jul 2, 2014
Poly or anyone else let me ask a question. Before the big bang there was no time or space. As the universe expands is it creating new space and is it taking time into that new space????

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#116602 Jul 2, 2014
wondering wrote:
your best man just got his ass handed to him on a plate. so much for poly being the smartest one in here.
good day!
You can't just run off when people aren't finished laughing at you.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#116603 Jul 2, 2014
Denny CranesPlace wrote:
Poly or anyone else let me ask a question. Before the big bang there was no time or space. As the universe expands is it creating new space and is it taking time into that new space????
Time and space are intertwined, Einstein proposed this idea with general relativity , so the universe is an expanding space/time continuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
The Dude

UK

#116604 Jul 2, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
you are so sure that when i say mass and aura wrongly corects me with larger you set on your thumbs. i am really starting to doubt your intelligence now. for i know and you know there is a difference between mass and larger. a stone brick will have more mass than a brick of styrofoam that is 3 times larger. but someone has to try to protect your kittens here for they can't protect themselves.
Currently the kittens are regarding you with wide eyes and dropped jaws.

As if Palin really could be the next president.

“If it ain't broke don't fix it”

Level 9

Since: Jul 09

Arcadia, LA.

#116605 Jul 2, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Um 13.6 lys from here? Far out? Lost in space? Ready for lunch? Very very old?
Very lonely? Out of sight! In a star wars movie? I give up where??
LoL. I was gonna say in a galaxy far, far away.
The Dude

UK

#116606 Jul 2, 2014
wondering wrote:
your best man just got his ass handed to him on a plate. so much for poly being the smartest one in here.
good day!
You're certainly scoring high on the crackpot index, that's fer sure.

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#116607 Jul 2, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Time and space are intertwined, Einstein proposed this idea with general relativity , so the universe is an expanding space/time continuum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
Before the big bang there was the heating up of the singularity if I remember right. So how does something heat up without time? Post me a link on that and I will read it later.
The Dude

UK

#116608 Jul 2, 2014
Denny CranesPlace wrote:
Poly or anyone else let me ask a question. Before the big bang there was no time or space. As the universe expands is it creating new space and is it taking time into that new space????
Well if we have more space, we have more time.

Time marches on!

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#116609 Jul 2, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And Chris
Mass is what comes after Chris, Chrismass .:) lol

There are a few definitions but ...the number and type of atoms or molecules contained.
Is what come to mind when we talk about a star.
1 solar mass = about two nonillion (2 followed by 30 zeros) kilograms
1.98855

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#116610 Jul 2, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Before the big bang there was the heating up of the singularity if I remember right. So how does something heat up without time? Post me a link on that and I will read it later.
I don't know what you mean, but the temperature is "The Planck temperature" Absolute Hot
and it has no meaning in heat hot/cold because zero temperature is the same, as the Planck temperature.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#116611 Jul 2, 2014
Denny CranesPlace wrote:
Poly or anyone else let me ask a question. Before the big bang there was no time or space. As the universe expands is it creating new space and is it taking time into that new space????
The best way to talk about the expansion is that the universe expands 'into the future'. There is a sense in which this is mathematically exactly true. The difficulty is that space-time is a single geometric entity with 'space' being a slice and 'time' being a direction.

I'm going to drop down a couple of dimensions to give an analogy.

Let's model a spatially finite universe with one spatial dimension. At any time, the spatial slice is finite and one-dimensional, so it is a circle (one dimensional to those inside). Now, imagine the time axis to correspond to height. As we go 'up', the circle gets larger, so the whole of spacetime in this model forms a cone. Each horizontal section of the cone represents space at some time.

Now, a moving observer would have a cross section that is tilted compared to the ground, so 'forward in time' would have a slightly different meaning than for 'us'. None-the-less, space would still be finite for such an observer.

I can go up a dimension and give a different, but related model.

Let ordinary 3D space represent spacetime. But, let distance from some center point represent *time*. Then, a fixed time slice would correspond to all points a fixed distance from the center, so space would be a *sphere*.

In this analogy, space is finite and curved (but spacetime is not curved here). Later times give larger spheres, so 'space is expanding'. Notice it really is expanding 'into the future'.

Also, there is no 'center' for the expansion *in space*. The 'center' is a point in the past.

This analogy also shows how it is possible to not have a 'before the expansion'. There is no 'time' before the center in this model. Time literally begins at the center of this model (the singularity).

Now, both of these are very simplified models. Real spacetime has a four dimensional geometry, not a two or three dimensional one. Also, real spacetime is itself curved, in addition to the spatial slices being curved (or not, if the universe is flat). But we need to consider the *whole* four dimensional structure of spacetime instead of all the three dimensional spatial slices. Time is *part* of the four dimensional geometry of spacetime. It is part of the universe.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#116612 Jul 2, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Before the big bang there was the heating up of the singularity if I remember right. So how does something heat up without time? Post me a link on that and I will read it later.
Once again, the singularity is not an object that can be heated. it isn't an object at all. There was no 'before the Big Bang' in many models. In other models, there is a previous, contracting universe. In those where there is no 'before', there is no causality, so there is no issue. In the others, the contraction of the previous universe has a time component.

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#116613 Jul 2, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
The best way to talk about the expansion is that the universe expands 'into the future'. There is a sense in which this is mathematically exactly true. The difficulty is that space-time is a single geometric entity with 'space' being a slice and 'time' being a direction.
I'm going to drop down a couple of dimensions to give an analogy.
Let's model a spatially finite universe with one spatial dimension. At any time, the spatial slice is finite and one-dimensional, so it is a circle (one dimensional to those inside). Now, imagine the time axis to correspond to height. As we go 'up', the circle gets larger, so the whole of spacetime in this model forms a cone. Each horizontal section of the cone represents space at some time.
Now, a moving observer would have a cross section that is tilted compared to the ground, so 'forward in time' would have a slightly different meaning than for 'us'. None-the-less, space would still be finite for such an observer.
I can go up a dimension and give a different, but related model.
Let ordinary 3D space represent spacetime. But, let distance from some center point represent *time*. Then, a fixed time slice would correspond to all points a fixed distance from the center, so space would be a *sphere*.
In this analogy, space is finite and curved (but spacetime is not curved here). Later times give larger spheres, so 'space is expanding'. Notice it really is expanding 'into the future'.
Also, there is no 'center' for the expansion *in space*. The 'center' is a point in the past.
This analogy also shows how it is possible to not have a 'before the expansion'. There is no 'time' before the center in this model. Time literally begins at the center of this model (the singularity).
Now, both of these are very simplified models. Real spacetime has a four dimensional geometry, not a two or three dimensional one. Also, real spacetime is itself curved, in addition to the spatial slices being curved (or not, if the universe is flat). But we need to consider the *whole* four dimensional structure of spacetime instead of all the three dimensional spatial slices. Time is *part* of the four dimensional geometry of spacetime. It is part of the universe.
Much of this still bewilders me, but I now have a better grasp than I did this morning. Thanks.
FREE SERVANT

Tucker, GA

#116614 Jul 2, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think so.
And this is why:
1) Randomly everywhere you dig, you observe earth layers. There is virtually no exception to this rule.
2) By very logic, a layer below another layer is older than the on on top.
3) Hence, the deeper you dig, the older the layer.
4) In these subsequent layers we find remnants of life (most fossils).
Go to http://www.oldearth.org/grandcanyon.htm . Mind the source BTW, a creationist website. There the stratification of the Grand Canyon is painstakingly described. It comes in 5 pages.
5) What we observe is that with every deeper layer, life changes. New species appears and others disappear.
6) Moreover, if you go deeper, life gradually becomes more primitive.
7) Eventually, in the deepest layers, we only observe unicellular life (bacteria). Not any other single life form is found in those layers. Only bacteria. If we ascend in the geological column, ever more new life forms appear (and disappear) and life gradually becomes ever more complex. Humans are newcomers. Their remains are only found in a few layers on top of a pile of thousands of layers.
Mind that I didn't imply anything about the age of the earth. I only observed that deeper layers are by very logic older than the ones on top.
It is your logic that great amounts of time had to pass for the creation of all these things that may be in error. You imply that our Creator can not do miracles and cause things to happen more quickly than we can imagine.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#116615 Jul 2, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It is your logic that great amounts of time had to pass for the creation of all these things that may be in error. You imply that our Creator can not do miracles and cause things to happen more quickly than we can imagine.
Who?

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#116616 Jul 2, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It is your logic that great amounts of time had to pass for the creation of all these things that may be in error. You imply that our Creator can not do miracles and cause things to happen more quickly than we can imagine.

Gosh and eureka 100,000 years only takes a daY when you have GAWD magic.

This means You will be my slave forever, WHY?
Because I said so!

You can blame it on.....Christian logic. Now get in line and STFU! slave boy

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#116617 Jul 2, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It is your logic that great amounts of time had to pass for the creation of all these things that may be in error. You imply that our Creator can not do miracles and cause things to happen more quickly than we can imagine.
And the creator faked the age of the entire universe just to fool us. Quite the jokester.
FREE SERVANT

Tucker, GA

#116618 Jul 2, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
And the creator faked the age of the entire universe just to fool us. Quite the jokester.
There is nothing fake about the power that created the heavens and earth. When God said for them to be, then they was as he said for them to be. In the day that God created the heavens and the earth they came about at once, and I believe the six days were the days that he saw that all of this was good.
FREE SERVANT

Tucker, GA

#116619 Jul 2, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Gosh and eureka 100,000 years only takes a daY when you have GAWD magic.
This means You will be my slave forever, WHY?
Because I said so!
You can blame it on.....Christian logic. Now get in line and STFU! slave boy
I am not a slave, I am a FREE SERVANT! Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#116620 Jul 2, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>I am not a slave, I am a FREE SERVANT! Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
Your mind is enslaved, And I would set you free, if you would only stand up and be free. But you chose to remain a slave.

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