Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115731 Jun 24, 2014
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah. My bad.
Very complicated ... but good question.
I would begin here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning
And make use of the references at the bottom of the article.
I argued with a guy once that said I was wrong to think dogs can learn. He said they don't learn, it is routine. I actually laughed out loud and Said so they "learned" a routine? He said no, I mean they only do it because of repeatably doing it. I said yes a routine. they learned a routine right? He left the conversation.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#115732 Jun 24, 2014
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah. My bad.
Very complicated ... but good question.
I would begin here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning
And make use of the references at the bottom of the article.
I gave a response to Replay's post, but it barely does justice to what is known on the subject, let alone the questions we have yet to find answers for. Very complicated.

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115733 Jun 24, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>That questions is the key to a writhing can of worms. I am thinking of learning as the ability to discern new information and apply it to present and future situations. Learning ability varies among different organisms. I don't know enough of the field to apply proper definitions or where to delineate separation between simple response to stimuli, instinct, behavior, intelligence and learning to the varying degrees with which it is expressed. Taking an educated guess, I would say that learning evolved along with increasingly complex nervous systems and sensory organs. Learning and intelligence have a tremendous fitness value as indicated by the human population. It can get you all the good stuff and some of the bad too if you are so inclined.
Starting with simple instincts, responses to stimuli and increasing ability to observe the environment is probably where it started. Learning would give an edge leading to greater fitness and any mutations that enhanced learning would quickly become fixed in populations.
I have often wondered how much human intelligence and learning are required for a base level of survival. Some apparently very unintelligent people manage to survive and procreate quite well. And some very intelligent populations live rather simple, agrarian or nomadic lifestyles.
Anyway, we can literally devote an entire thread to this subject.
I think everyone is confusing what I said. Learning is an ability.We learn by sight, touch, smell, hearing, study, repeating, etc etc it is an mental ability. My question was where did that ability, the ability to learn come from.

“Me Me Me!”

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#115734 Jun 24, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I think wisdom is knowing to look for the line between the two, let alone where it might be. That and knowing there are some things best left alone.
I think the Bible is a great book if viewed allegorically. Trying to read it literally or use it as a science text is pointless and counterproductive.
I just try remember the gist of it which is to be good one another and trust.
Although I sometimes fall short.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#115735 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I think everyone is confusing what I said. Learning is an ability.We learn by sight, touch, smell, hearing, study, repeating, etc etc it is an mental ability. My question was where did that ability, the ability to learn come from.
That is what I was trying to address, but I have no practical expertise in the subject and only the knowledge gleaned from reading and my answers are going to be limited at best.

You are hitting some of it on the head though. Learning involves the senses, but is not limited to them. I would say study and repetition are more important as the complexity of the learning increases. Simple things can be learned quickly.

It has probably developed along those lines. With simple organisms following instinct and simple response to stimuli and as they evolved along with nervous systems and sense organs, the ability to learn evolved. An animal with eyes can learn that certain colors or movement might indicate danger that an animal without eyes would never be aware of. This would provide a large fitness value.

As to a specific origin, there probably isn't one single origin or driver.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#115736 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I think everyone is confusing what I said. Learning is an ability.We learn by sight, touch, smell, hearing, study, repeating, etc etc it is an mental ability. My question was where did that ability, the ability to learn come from.
Animals started out very simple you know, all they needed was find food, evade being eaten and reproduce. They learned better ways to do these things and evolved partly because of it.
Over millions of years and for our species hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error, but things accelerated learning in humans. Writing was the first , school was the second . I can't believe you can't figure this out.
I mean once we were cave dwellers, we learned by doing things and teaching them by memory. We progressed to the writing of books containing knowledge, now accelerated because you have the whole world's library at your fingertips. But if you want to know whats at the core of what started learning, it was those three things required to survive in a predators world.

“Me Me Me!”

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#115737 Jun 24, 2014
Good to one another^

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#115738 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I think everyone is confusing what I said. Learning is an ability.We learn by sight, touch, smell, hearing, study, repeating, etc etc it is an mental ability. My question was where did that ability, the ability to learn come from.
it evolved from the evolutionary progress of beings. are you looking for a single source? that is a skewed search and will not produce fruitful data.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#115739 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I think everyone is confusing what I said. Learning is an ability.We learn by sight, touch, smell, hearing, study, repeating, etc etc it is an mental ability. My question was where did that ability, the ability to learn come from.
Once we learned farming and formed civilizations, we got people tasked with securing enough to eat for everybody, leaving time to learn new things.
Indeed this even allowed really good thinkers to have nothing more to do than think. lol
They devised new ways and plans ...skip to now, we still do it this way.
And we still learn new things. Because we always have asked..is this it, is there nothing more?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115740 Jun 24, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Guessing that god created natural laws is the same as guessing that god created the universe.
You are plagued by the same problems, no indicator exists that this is so and you still have the problem of what created god. The physical laws exist, we have identified them... g/l with the hypotheses they were created by an invisible man. We know the universe exists and these are the physical properties of it, aka: the conditions that flow naturally from the advent of time/matter/energy/space we don't need a god as explanation , but if you must believe it's ok with me.
Just don't try to harass your physics teacher that god is the cause of the Chandrasekhar limit, he may reach that point himself.
By your logic lets take the BBT which says the universe expanded from a singularity correct? Then there is still the problem of what created the singularity? And before that and before that.

You see if someone gave an explanation of what created god, then it would lead to what created that thing that created God, and so on. It all can be a never ending game of words.

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115741 Jun 24, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>That is what I was trying to address, but I have no practical expertise in the subject and only the knowledge gleaned from reading and my answers are going to be limited at best.
You are hitting some of it on the head though. Learning involves the senses, but is not limited to them. I would say study and repetition are more important as the complexity of the learning increases. Simple things can be learned quickly.
It has probably developed along those lines. With simple organisms following instinct and simple response to stimuli and as they evolved along with nervous systems and sense organs, the ability to learn evolved. An animal with eyes can learn that certain colors or movement might indicate danger that an animal without eyes would never be aware of. This would provide a large fitness value.
As to a specific origin, there probably isn't one single origin or driver.
At least you seem to understand what I am talking about. Learning and the ability to learn are different things. Now we can hone that ability by senses, study and repetition which is called learning but that still does not explain where the ability itself came from.

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115742 Jun 24, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Animals started out very simple you know, all they needed was find food, evade being eaten and reproduce. They learned better ways to do these things and evolved partly because of it.
Over millions of years and for our species hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error, but things accelerated learning in humans. Writing was the first , school was the second . I can't believe you can't figure this out.
I mean once we were cave dwellers, we learned by doing things and teaching them by memory. We progressed to the writing of books containing knowledge, now accelerated because you have the whole world's library at your fingertips. But if you want to know whats at the core of what started learning, it was those three things required to survive in a predators world.
Yes they learned to find food, they learned to avoid predators, they learned to reproduce. Where did that learning ability come from? One can say it is survival but then again survival is an ability. Where did the ability to to survive come from?.You cant say the ability to survive came from learning and the ability to learn came from survival. Those abilities didn't just poof inside of the living thing.

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115743 Jun 24, 2014
In reality we don't even know why we sleep? Yes there are theories and such but no one truly knows exactly why anything sleeps.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#115744 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
By your logic lets take the BBT which says the universe expanded from a singularity correct? Then there is still the problem of what created the singularity? And before that and before that.
You see if someone gave an explanation of what created god, then it would lead to what created that thing that created God, and so on. It all can be a never ending game of words.
You have a conflict, you see time does not exist in a singularity. So there is no before as time starts with the expansion of space/time.
The question here is there a multiverse, in this case there maybe other timelines, and if this universe sprang from another a time before this time.
So you see the need for god is only a human psychological need, we can explain and indeed have explained why adding our philosophical need of a creator only add to the problem of explaining how this universe came to be.
You or most people will say when asked where did god come from?
He always was or is eternal.
But the universe always was and when in a singularity infinite, or eternal.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#115745 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes they learned to find food, they learned to avoid predators, they learned to reproduce. Where did that learning ability come from? One can say it is survival but then again survival is an ability. Where did the ability to to survive come from?.You cant say the ability to survive came from learning and the ability to learn came from survival. Those abilities didn't just poof inside of the living thing.
I would say the two were synonymous with the advent of life in general, but specifically with higher animals that formed neural tissue, with the ability to remember things.
Those that became conscious and sense the world must learn to live in it.
The more senses the larger the brain became, and the sense became honed in
So it's more a requirement but yes it is and ability made possible with the formation of neural correlates. When they progressed to neural nets and large mammal brains, there was enhanced ability through the mass this network built in.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#115746 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
In reality we don't even know why we sleep? Yes there are theories and such but no one truly knows exactly why anything sleeps.
Chimney or poly could explain this to you I think, it's a question of thermodynamics.
Were biological machines subject to the laws of physics, just as the machines we build are.
They have a duty cycle, our duty cycle requires this idle time. It's pretty complicated for a living organism, I mean much more than a machine anyway, chemical processes deplete and we must recover rebuild muscle and regroup. Machines don't recognize fatigue and will work beyond thier limit, leading to disaster for it. We can do the same thing you know?

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115747 Jun 24, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a conflict, you see time does not exist in a singularity. So there is no before as time starts with the expansion of space/time.
The question here is there a multiverse, in this case there maybe other timelines, and if this universe sprang from another a time before this time.
So you see the need for god is only a human psychological need, we can explain and indeed have explained why adding our philosophical need of a creator only add to the problem of explaining how this universe came to be.
You or most people will say when asked where did god come from?
He always was or is eternal.
But the universe always was and when in a singularity infinite, or eternal.
You have never heard the theory that the universe was once vast and collapsed in on itself forming the singularity? Some think that. Like some think if it keeps expanding it could happen again in millions of years.

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115748 Jun 24, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Chimney or poly could explain this to you I think, it's a question of thermodynamics.
Were biological machines subject to the laws of physics, just as the machines we build are.
They have a duty cycle, our duty cycle requires this idle time. It's pretty complicated for a living organism, I mean much more than a machine anyway, chemical processes deplete and we must recover rebuild muscle and regroup. Machines don't recognize fatigue and will work beyond thier limit, leading to disaster for it. We can do the same thing you know?
For real Google it. The exact reason anything sleeps is not known. But there are theories.

The question of what constitutes sleep is so complex that scientists are still trying to define the essential function of something we do every night. A study published this week in PLoS Biology by Chiara Cirelli and Giulio Tononi addresses this pressing question.

The search for the core function of sleep can seem as elusive as the search for the mythological phoenix, says Cirelli, an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health in Madison

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/...

“HATRED EATS THE SOUL OF”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

THE HATER -- NOT THE HATED

#115749 Jun 24, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I would say the two were synonymous with the advent of life in general, but specifically with higher animals that formed neural tissue, with the ability to remember things.
Those that became conscious and sense the world must learn to live in it.
The more senses the larger the brain became, and the sense became honed in
So it's more a requirement but yes it is and ability made possible with the formation of neural correlates. When they progressed to neural nets and large mammal brains, there was enhanced ability through the mass this network built in.
Do you thin k the brain and mind are synonyms? If you do many would see you as wrong. Where as the brain is an organ and the mind isn't. The brain can be seen and touched where as the mind can't be.

http://controlmind.info/human-brain/the-diffe...

“Me Me Me!”

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#115750 Jun 24, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
For real Google it. The exact reason anything sleeps is not known. But there are theories.
The question of what constitutes sleep is so complex that scientists are still trying to define the essential function of something we do every night. A study published this week in PLoS Biology by Chiara Cirelli and Giulio Tononi addresses this pressing question.
The search for the core function of sleep can seem as elusive as the search for the mythological phoenix, says Cirelli, an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health in Madison
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/...
That's just like what I said about a heart. The cells are charged to beat but where the change comes from and what starts them beating is unknown.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Weird Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Add a word and drop a word (Jan '14) 2 min andet1987 1,965
Let's Play Song Titles With One Word? 4 min _hellbilly_ 300
4 Word Game (Use Same Letter) 7 min andet1987 229
Libs got what they wanted 8 min libs r pigs 0
The letter L (Jun '13) 17 min andet1987 615
The letter F (Jun '13) 20 min andet1987 913
The Letter J (Jan '14) 22 min andet1987 39
What are you thinking about now? (Jun '10) 53 min -Lea- 25,684
What song are you listening to right now? (Apr '08) 1 hr Naturally Wired 152,478
Is it possible to....... 2 hr Sarah 568
More from around the web