Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111691
Apr 18, 2014
 
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>I have read passages that the Spirit of Truth has lead me to, but again I don't think you know what this means.
Course we do Mikey. It means your gullible as hell.

Otherwise you'd have *evidence* to present us.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111692
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
In tracing the alleged evolution of humans from primate ancestors, palaeoanthropologists have been frustrated by the existence of two extensive gaps In the fossil record. The first gap, known as the hominoid gap, goes from 32 to 22 million years ago on the evolutionary time-scale. This period is important because it is during this period that evolutionists believe that the ancestors of apes and humans were splitting off from the tine leading to the monkeys. Yet, with one possible exception,[1] this time-frame is devoid of hominoid fossil evidence to document this alleged divergence.
The second gap, known as the hominid gap, extends from 14 to 4.5 million years ago. This second period is equally critical for evolutionary theory because it is the time when the ancestors of the australopithecine and human group were allegedly diverging from the ancestors of the African apes, especially the chimpanzees. This period is also devoid of any relevant fossil material, except for a few fossil scraps too fragmentary for diagnosis. Thus, the recent news that the hominid 'missing link' has been discovered was greeted with great exuberance by the evolutionist community.
Except I've just filled that second gap. Took me 2 seconds.(shrug)

So since your buddies you just copy-pasted from lied about the second gap, why should we presume they're telling the truth about the first?

Keeping in mind of course the genetic evidence thrown in there too.

So far still waiting for a SINGLE rebuttal from you.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111693
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
No what I said is there is very sketchy incomplete fossils. We simply are not able to prove any of this with fossil records.
We can not possibly identify a bone that is millions of years old and make any sort of rational conclusions about what that bone is. It is pure speculation.
Not at all. Because remember, evolution is the ONLY theory that exists capable of making predictions based on the fossil record. Successfully too. Ergo, not pure speculation.

Just because YOU are ignorant of the fossil record and comparative anatomy doesn't mean everyone else is.

But thanks for contradicting yourself by just admitting that there DOES exist a fossil record.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111694
Apr 18, 2014
 

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SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no fossil record.
You are falling for half-truth because you are ignorant
So first you say there is no fossil record.
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
No what I said is there is very sketchy incomplete fossils.
Then you change your mind.
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text> (copy-pasted from some ignorant fundie website)
In tracing the alleged evolution of humans from primate ancestors, palaeoanthropologists have been frustrated by the existence of two extensive gaps In the fossil record.
And then you just said there definitely WAS a fossil record. THEN you say:
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
You are trying to argue, I never said any of that.
Which is quite obviously a STUPID thing to say because you DID in fact say that.

So quite obviously you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about because you're not looking at the evidence, you're looking for any old soundbite that sounds good to you.
SevenTee wrote:
Of course there are fossils, the problem is we have no idea what the fossil is or was.
No, YOU don't know. Because you aren't trained in comparative anatomy.
SevenTee wrote:
It is purse speculation and quite frankly a waste of time because there is absolutely no documentation that can verify any of the evolution business to the level that some of these scientists claim.
Except for the fact that Darwin himself PREDICTED the existence of transitional fossils. The fact they were FOUND is one of the reasons the guy got famous in the first place don'cha know. A fact know by the majority of educated people, unfortunately you're not one of them.
SevenTee wrote:
Most of these types are desperate to get something published in a scientific journal because their teaching position depends upon publishing.
Right, so it's all a big massive conspiracy. Except that organisations DON'T continue to funnel THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS in research grants that come up with diddly, for ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS.

And that's why evolution is not only scientifically demonstrable (as noted in our posts which you STILL can't refute) but also a fact.

So it is clearly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain that you're a clueless nonce who doesn't have the slightest idea what you're babbling about.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111695
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. Good luck in your quest for knowledge.
But remember to blindly follow a political pseudo-scientific evolution theory takes more faith than knowledge or reason.
Belief is unnecessary when we have evidence. That's why you blindly follow dogmatic idiots who think the Flinstones is a science documentary, which goes great lengths in demonstrating your lack of education on the subjects involved.
SevenTee wrote:
10-20 million years of gaps leaves a lot of ground to make up my friend.
Hardly, since for there to BE gaps in the first place, there needs to be fossils. And of ALL the fossils we have (which just so happens to be every single fossil in existence) they clearly show an evolutionary trend. We've even provided linkys to actual genuine scientific sources, complete with pictures.

All you can say is "NO NO NONONO NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!"
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111696
Apr 18, 2014
 

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SevenTee wrote:
OMG!
Now the Topix poster is claiming his expertise in dinosaurs, birds, animal communication, genetics and geology!!
He doesn't need to. All he has to do is point out that the experts in those very subjects agree with him. And they do.

So uh, that alone shows your rhetorical response to be rather stupid.(shrug)

Besides, pretty much ANY non-creationist is like a genius in those subjects compared to you. AND we don't get caught lying for Jesus like you do. Or anyone else for that matter.
SevenTee wrote:
I am so glad to have met you on the Topix internet page, you have convinced me of the error of my ways and now I know the truth, my great great great great grandfather was an ape, and he might have been a grape ape just like the cartoon I saw on TV.
Yes, you are an ape, your dad was an ape, your grandfather was an ape, your great grandfather was an ape, your great great grandfather was an ape, your great great great grandfather was an ape and your great great great great grandfather was an ape, all extending back millions of years.

Humans ARE apes.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

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#111697
Apr 18, 2014
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Not at all. Because remember, evolution is the ONLY theory that exists capable of making predictions based on the fossil record. Successfully too. Ergo, not pure speculation.
Just because YOU are ignorant of the fossil record and comparative anatomy doesn't mean everyone else is.
But thanks for contradicting yourself by just admitting that there DOES exist a fossil record.
...speaking of which:

http://phys.org/news/2014-04-methylation-nean...

April 18th, 2014

Researchers create methylation maps of Neanderthals and Denisovans, compare them to modern humans.

A team of Israeli, Spanish and German researchers has for the first time created a map of gene expression in Neanderthals and Denisovans and has compared them with modern humans. In their paper published in the journal Science, the team describes how they applied epigentics to the study of our two closest known ancestors and discovered variations that might account for their differences in body shape and susceptibility to some modern neurological diseases.

Read more at link above...
SevenTee

Lexington, KY

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#111698
Apr 18, 2014
 
Karma is a_______ wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG you've convinced me of the errors of my ways. I totally believe that all men are descendents of two daughters who got their father drunk and then seduced him to have his children/grandchildren (who knew the bible was a tale of the Beverly Hillbillies).
that all life on Earth were once passengers on a big boat
that the Earth not only stopped revolving around the Sun, but went backwards
Now you confirmed what I suspected for a long time.

Evolutionists are nothing but Anti-Religious bigots who hold on to a couple of bone fragments to explain something they can not accept.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance
SevenTee

Lexington, KY

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#111699
Apr 18, 2014
 

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Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
...speaking of which:
http://phys.org/news/2014-04-methylation-nean...
April 18th, 2014
Researchers create methylation maps of Neanderthals and Denisovans, compare them to modern humans.
A team of Israeli, Spanish and German researchers has for the first time created a map of gene expression in Neanderthals and Denisovans and has compared them with modern humans. In their paper published in the journal Science, the team describes how they applied epigentics to the study of our two closest known ancestors and discovered variations that might account for their differences in body shape and susceptibility to some modern neurological diseases.
Read more at link above...
Do you even read these stupid links you post

""Unfortunately, the maps created by the research team are still incomplete, they only had a few bone fragments to work with—they're hoping future studies (and fossil finds) will reveal more. In the meantime, they plan to conduct similar work on other species, such as horses, to help reveal the types of methylation that occurred as they were domesticated.""

.....only had a few bone fragments, LMAO, yet they photoshop an entire skeletal body from a few fragments??

You people will believe anything.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

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#111700
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even read these stupid links you post
""Unfortunately, the maps created by the research team are still incomplete, they only had a few bone fragments to work with—they're hoping future studies (and fossil finds) will reveal more. In the meantime, they plan to conduct similar work on other species, such as horses, to help reveal the types of methylation that occurred as they were domesticated.""
.....only had a few bone fragments, LMAO, yet they photoshop an entire skeletal body from a few fragments??
You people will believe anything.
You do understand destructive analysis requires consuming invaluable fossils?
In which case these priceless bone fragments come at a premium even whole nations think twice about, the cost is twin fold, loss of the bone and cost of the experiment.

But these type experiment do tell us much about the past.
Do you people understand anything?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

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#111701
Apr 18, 2014
 

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SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even read these stupid links you post
""Unfortunately, the maps created by the research team are still incomplete, they only had a few bone fragments to work with—they're hoping future studies (and fossil finds) will reveal more. In the meantime, they plan to conduct similar work on other species, such as horses, to help reveal the types of methylation that occurred as they were domesticated.""
.....only had a few bone fragments, LMAO, yet they photoshop an entire skeletal body from a few fragments??
You people will believe anything.
You are TURBO ignorant.

Did *YOU* read the article I referenced?

http://phys.org/news/2014-04-methylation-nean...

Studying methylation in preserved fossils involves noting the way the methyl chemical cytosine decays over long periods of time. Unmethylated cytosines decay to one type of chemical while unmethylated cyctones decay to another. By measuring the amounts of the two resultant chemicals found in fossilized bone fragments, the researchers were able to create methylation maps of Neanderthals and Denisovans, which they then compared with similar maps for modern humans.

<end cut/paste>

1. The study that this article is writing about is a CHEMICAL/GENETIC study, comparing the DNA of Neanderthals & Denisovians versus Modern man. NOT a morphological (skeletal)comparison.

2. The image of the Neanderthal skeleton being depicted is based the bones of upon OVER FOUR HUNDRED Neanderthals that have been found and studied since 1829 -- including some nearly complete Neanderthal skeletons.

3. Denisovans have far fewer fossils, but there have been enough fossils found to do DNA testing -- which again WAS WHAT THIS PAPER WAS DESCRIBING!

Putz.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

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#111702
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
10-20 million years of gaps leaves a lot of ground to make up my friend.
Not all lines in the fossil record have gaps of the same size. Don't you realize that you don't know or understand the fossil record my friend. We have filled a lot of gaps in the last 200 years, but you are correct the bridging of every gap with new fossils increases our understanding of evolution.

“I have upset the hand of god”

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#111703
Apr 18, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG!
Now the Topix poster is claiming his expertise in dinosaurs, birds, animal communication, genetics and geology!!
I am so glad to have met you on the Topix internet page, you have convinced me of the error of my ways and now I know the truth, my great great great great grandfather was an ape, and he might have been a grape ape just like the cartoon I saw on TV.
Yes, you do seem to claim a lot of expertise in a variety of scientific fields. It is a shame that you do really know science, these conversations would be much more interesting.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

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#111704
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
In tracing the alleged evolution of humans from primate ancestors, palaeoanthropologists have been frustrated by the existence of two extensive gaps In the fossil record. The first gap, known as the hominoid gap, goes from 32 to 22 million years ago on the evolutionary time-scale. This period is important because it is during this period that evolutionists believe that the ancestors of apes and humans were splitting off from the tine leading to the monkeys. Yet, with one possible exception,[1] this time-frame is devoid of hominoid fossil evidence to document this alleged divergence.
The second gap, known as the hominid gap, extends from 14 to 4.5 million years ago. This second period is equally critical for evolutionary theory because it is the time when the ancestors of the australopithecine and human group were allegedly diverging from the ancestors of the African apes, especially the chimpanzees. This period is also devoid of any relevant fossil material, except for a few fossil scraps too fragmentary for diagnosis. Thus, the recent news that the hominid 'missing link' has been discovered was greeted with great exuberance by the evolutionist community.
I don't know what your sources are but they are about 30+ years out of date.

Modern genetic and fossil evidence suggests a split with a common ancestor with chimpanzees around 6-7 million years ago. We have an excellent continuum of fossils from around 4 million years ago with the earliest known australopithecines being very apelike but bipedal (though not as well adapted to bipedalism as we are), through a series of gradual intermediates A. Africanus, A. Sedibus, H Georgicus, H Erectus, H Heidelburgensis, Archaic Sapiens and by 190,000 years ago the earliest modern H Sapiens.

There is no "hominoid gap" at all and the so called hominid gap you refer to is only between 4 and 6-7 million years ago, but its a small gap anatomically anyway.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

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#111705
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
No what I said is there is very sketchy incomplete fossils. We simply are not able to prove any of this with fossil records.
We can not possibly identify a bone that is millions of years old and make any sort of rational conclusions about what that bone is. It is pure speculation.
You are right. We cannot take one bone in isolation and say much about it. Just as you cannot picture a jigsaw puzzle from one piece.

However, that is not what we have. In the case of hominid evolution alone, we have a sequence of fossilised skulls and other parts of the skeleton that show a trending continuum of change from apelike to humanlike over a period of 4 million years.

Darwin predicted this would be the case before a single hominid fossil was discovered.

Not only that, but all other lineages conform to the nested hierarchy as evolution demands. Plants, mammals, birds, you name it.

Of millions of fossils discovered, not a single one is "out of place" in the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle. Not a SINGLE mammal fossil has been found earlier than the period where we see the gradual transition of a line of reptiles into mammals (therapsids etc). And birds converge with dinosaurs with over 30+ species near the convergence point where experts cannot be sure if they hould be called dino-like birds or bird-like dinos.

Many of these discoveries have occurred in the last 30 years, with fossil and genomic evidence independently corroborating each other too.

Gone are the days when you can pretend that the record is so sketchy that its unreliable. That is just pure nonsense today, and the only people perpetrating such foolishness are YEC creationists who do not have a shred of scientific evidence to back their counterclaims..

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Lakeland, FL

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#111706
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you confirmed what I suspected for a long time.
Evolutionists are nothing but Anti-Religious bigots who hold on to a couple of bone fragments to explain something they can not accept.
Thank you for illustrating the ignorance
And you for illustrating yours.
SevenTee

Lexington, KY

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#111707
Apr 19, 2014
 

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Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right. We cannot take one bone in isolation and say much about it. Just as you cannot picture a jigsaw puzzle from one piece.
However, that is not what we have. In the case of hominid evolution alone, we have a sequence of fossilised skulls and other parts of the skeleton that show a trending continuum of change from apelike to humanlike over a period of 4 million years.
Darwin predicted this would be the case before a single hominid fossil was discovered.
Not only that, but all other lineages conform to the nested hierarchy as evolution demands. Plants, mammals, birds, you name it.
Of millions of fossils discovered, not a single one is "out of place" in the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle. Not a SINGLE mammal fossil has been found earlier than the period where we see the gradual transition of a line of reptiles into mammals (therapsids etc). And birds converge with dinosaurs with over 30+ species near the convergence point where experts cannot be sure if they hould be called dino-like birds or bird-like dinos.
Many of these discoveries have occurred in the last 30 years, with fossil and genomic evidence independently corroborating each other too.
Gone are the days when you can pretend that the record is so sketchy that its unreliable. That is just pure nonsense today, and the only people perpetrating such foolishness are YEC creationists who do not have a shred of scientific evidence to back their counterclaims..
Sure Pal, whatever you say.

Where are these fossils?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

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#111708
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure Pal, whatever you say.
Where are these fossils?
Seriously?

Here. Not to far from you:

http://www.cincinnatiusa.com/Attractions/deta...
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111709
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you confirmed what I suspected for a long time.
Evolutionists are nothing but Anti-Religious bigots who hold on to a couple of bone fragments to explain something they can not accept.
Thank you for illustrating the ignorance
Sure. Like Ken Miller and Francis Collins.

Oh wait...

.

.

.

You ready to apologise for lying again yet? Or maybe you're gonna post a coherent rebuttal for once?

.

Uhuh. Thought not.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

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#111710
Apr 19, 2014
 
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even read these stupid links you post
""Unfortunately, the maps created by the research team are still incomplete, they only had a few bone fragments to work with—they're hoping future studies (and fossil finds) will reveal more. In the meantime, they plan to conduct similar work on other species, such as horses, to help reveal the types of methylation that occurred as they were domesticated.""
.....only had a few bone fragments, LMAO, yet they photoshop an entire skeletal body from a few fragments??
You people will believe anything.
Ah, good! Then in that case I'm sure you've come up with a better explanation of the methylation patterns observed, including which species the bones came from, yes?

(crickets)

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