Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111286 Apr 14, 2014
3
Nick wrote:
Why is evolution, a theory about history, taught as if it is the same as the operational science?
Because it's operations science. Just like forensics - deals with things that happened in the past, but we can TELL what happened in the past via the scientific method. Left a footprint? Then we can use operations science to tell us that it happened in the past, when it happened, and what kind of being left that print.
Nick wrote:
Why is a fundamentally religious idea, a dogmatic belief system that fails to explain the evidence, taught in science classes?
Because creationists preach illegally in public schools. Because remember, evolution is the ONLY theory out there that explains the evidence.

So tell me - how does GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC explain, well uh, anything at all?
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111287 Apr 14, 2014
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>Serious question for you:
How, exactly, does one "study" creationism?
You read the bible you do research online you ask creationists about it go to a bookstore and find a book that discusses faith
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111288 Apr 14, 2014
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
In order to 'consider creationism', you DO have to denounce all science, as the story as LITERALLY told in Genesis is pure bunkum from a science standpoint.
Does that mean that there is no God? No. It just means that the people (not God) who wrote the books of the Bible were wrong about the acts of creation.
Read about Galileo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
He was arrested by the Church for DARING to argue against the Bible which suggests that the Earth is the center of the universe. If he didn't have 'connections', it is likely he would have been executed for his heresy.
The line that Galileo is famous for is: "The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go...".
In other words: The Bible is not a science book. Believe instead in the evidence of the observed universe that God left for us to study.
Bit you dont have to denounce all science it can be one in the same with creation bit evolution is a theory within science and not everyone creationists or not have to believe it
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111289 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
It may gain more info but not new info
So count:

Animal A - Bingo

Animal B - BingoBingo

How many letters in Animal A and how many in B?
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111290 Apr 14, 2014
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>When you glean your "information" about scientific subjects from religious apologetics sites YOU are the only one responsible for YOU looking bad.
BTW... when you have to lie in order to support your 'faith'... you have to ask yourself if that "faith' is well placed
Im not lying and if you think about i could say the same thing to you but just because someone believes different doesnt mean you can call them a lier it doesnt work that way

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#111291 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
We've presented you with our beliefs just as you have presented us with your beliefs and have given links also and yes i have noticed that you pick and choose parts of our posts so you can target us and make us look as bad as possible so you can try and break our faith but i wont go that easily trust me
No one's trying to break your faith Nick, no one is 'targeting' you, no one is trying to make you look bad,(although you're doing a pretty good job of that with your total lack of grammar). We are presenting information, and you continue to block it. We're not trying to change your opinion, believe what you will.

You know what - never mind. What we say obviously does not matter to you in the least, simply a waste of time. Have a good day Nick.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111292 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
By interpret i mean trying and understand the book as a whole
You don't NEED to understand the book as a whole. You DON'T need to know what happened to Adam and Eve to know about the shape of the Earth. You DON'T need to know about God's endgame plans to know about the shape of the Earth. In fact you already ADMITTED you have no idea what the heck God has up his, uh, sleeves. Does he wear sleeves? I bet you can't even tell me that either.

Point is that you can take ALL the passages about the shape of the Earth, and when combined, they make NO sense. Unless one understands that the Bible was written by an ancient bunch people by multiple different authors over a period of many centuries. And those writers didn't really know much about the world beyond where they lived.
Nick wrote:
and no i cant just sin all the time thats not how it works
Isn't it? Because I've met fundies on here who DO think that's how it works. That's why creationists on the whole tend to be not very good at morality. And they don't care anyway because they think that when it's time to meet their maker that they've got a get out of hell free card.
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111293 Apr 14, 2014
@TheDude

One important thing that you guys always seem to miss is that we as creationists believe in alot of the things you do such as natural selection the only thing that we dont believe is that one animal can turn into another then another and so on and so forth until we have the rich diversity of organisms found today and what gives my websites any less respect than yours it is just the "other side of the story" so to say
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111294 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
Guys im not trying to judge anyone this is just a site for debating not putting down each-other a debate is when you present your info and then the opposite party presents theirs and then you talk about it like civilized people you dont provide yours then mock and pick at everything else the other person presents
Um, Nick, when one enters a DEBATE, the whole POINT is to pick apart the other persons position while they attempt to do the same to yours. That's what a debate IS. It's an ARGUMENT.

And by argument I don't mean shouting slanging match, I mean more like an argument in court. Where everyone discusses what they think and presents the evidence for each side.

Notice how it tends to be creationism that gets picked apart on here while we just wait around for creationists to present a post that actually addresses what we said?

It's no coincidence that it's our side that keeps beating creationists in court too.
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111295 Apr 14, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
So count:
Animal A - Bingo
Animal B - BingoBingo
How many letters in Animal A and how many in B?
There may be more but its still with the same info look at the letters did a Z or a Q pop in
somewhere that im missing or what
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111296 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
And you guys clearly have little or no idea as to what being a Christian means
Of course we do.

It means believing in God, believing in Jesus, and generally try to be nice to thy fellow man.

Everything else is up for grabs. That's why there's so many different Christian denominations, because they can never agree on all the petty details.
Nick wrote:
it does not mean we all believe the earth is exactly 6000 years old or that the earth is flat or that we can do whatever as long as we ask God for forgiveness or that we don't believe in natural selection or that where stupid and denounce all science or that we either have eternal torture or slavery under God as many of you believe
Yes, we know there's lots of different ideas about Christianity.

Yours is just ONE of them. And your beliefs are no more valid than anyone else's.
Nick wrote:
if only you guys took the time to study creationism and openly consider our side of the story then maybe you'd be a bit more reasonable
We reject creationism because we ARE reasonable. Literalistic creationism is basically saying The Flinstones is a science documentary.

We know more than you about science. But we also know MORE than you about your OWN creationist arguments against science. Why? Because we HAVE studied both sides.

You're just annoyed that we didn't pick your side. But then you already KNOW your side is wrong because you tend to be evasive when answering my questions. If you even answer them at all.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111297 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
We've presented you with our beliefs
Reality doesn't CARE what you or I believe.
Nick wrote:
just as you have presented us with your beliefs
No, we have not presented any beliefs.

Unless the subject under discussion was theology.

But when it comes to science, our side has presented facts.
Nick wrote:
and have given links also
Yes, and we have refuted your links.

We're still waiting for you to refute ours.
Nick wrote:
and yes i have noticed that you pick and choose parts of our posts so you can target us and make us look as bad as possible
Actually I tend to pick and choose based on how much space there is to type, so if you're rambling a bit I might cut some of that out because I'm still addressing the points you're making.

And yes, the goal is to make creationism look as bad as possible. Just as your goal is to make science look as bad as possible. But our motivations are different:

Creationists - want to make science look as bad as possible because they believe facts that contradict the Bible are preventing more people from becoming Christians, and they want more people to be Christian so they can control all the political power.

Science supporters - have already been educated on the evolution vs creationism "debate" and know that creationism is anti-science anti-reality religious apologetics dogma. Which is fine on a personal level, but illegal to preach in public schools, and rather stupid to undermine the education of the country's populous.
Nick wrote:
so you can try and break our faith but i wont go that easily trust me
Oh, I believe you on that point. But I'm not trying to break your faith. You were programmed from birth to reject facts that conflict with your religious beliefs. You already know this because you've been making up excuses for your religion whenever it's been subjected to critical scrutiny. That's why creationists created the entire field called apologetics.

It's up to you if you WANT to actually learn. We can only present the facts. We can't force you to pay attention to reality.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111298 Apr 14, 2014
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>Serious question for you:
How, exactly, does one "study" creationism?
You don't. They spend more time talking BS about evolution than they do about the subject they're supposed to be "studying".

Method - make up a load of BS about evolution then tag "therefore Goddidit" at the end. Simples.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111299 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
You read the bible you do research online you ask creationists about it go to a bookstore and find a book that discusses faith
Sorry, but faith and science are two different subjects. If you want to believe in something without evidence, then you take an interest in faith. If you want to accept something scientifically, you take an interest in evidence.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111300 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Bit you dont have to denounce all science it can be one in the same with creation bit evolution is a theory within science and not everyone creationists or not have to believe it
But to be a literalistic creationist, you really do have to reject all science. Seriously, there is not one field of science that they do not ultimately end up throwing out. Of course that doesn't matter to Godmagic.

We've already been through this.

You can show us wrong by pointing out how invisible magic Jews passes the scientific method.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111301 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Im not lying and if you think about i could say the same thing to you but just because someone believes different doesnt mean you can call them a lier it doesnt work that way
Then don't lie.

SevenTee has already been caught lying.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111302 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
@TheDude
One important thing that you guys always seem to miss is that we as creationists believe in alot of the things you do such as natural selection
But you don't believe in natural selection. That's why natural selection is always ignored when it's inconvenient.
Nick wrote:
the only thing that we dont believe is that one animal can turn into another then another and so on and so forth until we have the rich diversity of organisms found today
Then you reject evolution as a whole. As natural selection is part and parcel of evolution then that gets chucked out with the baby water.
Nick wrote:
and what gives my websites any less respect than yours it is just the "other side of the story" so to say
The scientific method. Testing. Empiricism.

Your side already admitted to starting with a conclusion and finding any excuse possible to justify that conclusion.

That's not how science works. Science comes up with a hypothesis. Then it thinks of a way it could try to disprove it. If the test is falsifiable, but the hypothesis passes the test, then that's a good indication it's possibly true. Evolution has been passing such tests for 150 years.

Don't believe me? Name any objective test invisible Jewmagic has ever passed. Then we will point to tests evolution has passed.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111303 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
There may be more
Ah, good. Now we're getting somewhere. So we now both agree that it's MORE information.
Nick wrote:
but its still with the same info look at the letters did a Z or a Q pop in
somewhere that im missing or what
Good point. It's a repeat of the same information. But it's STILL MORE.

So then what happens? Well Animal B carries that extra information for the rest of its life. If that extra information is unhelpful then it may end up decreasing its chances to reproduce. Or it may be helpful and increase its chances to reproduce. Or it might be just harmless baggage, kinda like the amoeba having a ridiculous amount of DNA for a single-celled organism.

But anyway, Animal B has more information. So let's say it survives and has offspring. Just like everyone else, that offspring is born with a whole bunch of mutations. Just like you and me. Not a lot, 150 ain't much when compared to 3 billion. Now remember what can happen when a mutation occurs:

1 - Lose DNA.

2 - Change DNA

3 - Add DNA.

Any and all of these three possibilities can happen. And since we're all born with over a hundred mutations, it's likely that all three will happen at various points across our genetic makeup.

Changes add up with each generation that are born. Now if a family line just so happens to end up with lots more bad mutations than good, they MIGHT go extinct. If the mutations tend to be more neutral or balance each other out, the family line will continue with no real problems or benefits either. But if they happen to end up with lots of beneficial mutations then they could end up breeding like rabbits. And therefore more of those successful mutations will be passed on.
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111304 Apr 14, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
No one's trying to break your faith Nick, no one is 'targeting' you, no one is trying to make you look bad,(although you're doing a pretty good job of that with your total lack of grammar). We are presenting information, and you continue to block it. We're not trying to change your opinion, believe what you will.
You know what - never mind. What we say obviously does not matter to you in the least, simply a waste of time. Have a good day Nick.
This is science not grammar or literature science who cares about bad grammar and is that really the point of a debate im not supposed to care about everything you say just as you dont care what i say we are simply here to discuss.
Nick

Red Deer, Canada

#111305 Apr 14, 2014
@thedude

What you have is a belief just like creationism is a belief and you obviously have no idea what a christian is its not just believing in God and being kind to thy fellow man and so on theres so much more to it

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