Evolution vs. Creation

Jan 6, 2011 Read more: Best of New Orleans 160,046
High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111209 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
You just said that you mint the coins so you would have to design them they didnt just mutate into life
Seems you do not grasp the important point in the example, which is not who mints the coins but the fact that nobody had to "design" the new shapes.

All we did was base the new coins on the "successful" previous generation (i.e. analogous to heredity in life - you are similar to your parents), and add in a few RANDOM changes at the same time (i.e. as mutations do), and then let the coin tosses select which coins made it through to the next iteration (i.e. natural selection, the ones showing the most heads being the survivors).

So it looks like you missed the point completely. Its no wonder the critics of your lot tend to winnow their responses down to mere derogatory ridicule after a while. Sometimes it seems you deserve it. Why not think through the example given and offer an intelligent response?

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111210 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
No its not you just said that existing information creates new info with Darwin's finches for example the beaks changed a little but they were still just beaks they didn't change into fins or wings.
So Darwin's finch beaks perhaps did not require "additional information", being a relatively minor change.

Yet your ASSERTION was that new information was impossible and my EXAMPLE with the recipe, which is precisely analogous to a gene duplication event, showed you WHY that assertion of yours was plain false. Gene duplication happens, and it adds information, and the example showed you why. When you duplicate the instruction to add raisins, you get a different scone.

And you go back to finches beaks. Another off track response. How about the minor change to a myoglobin duplicate, which resulted in hemoglobin? How about the fact that some humans have more amylase gene duplicates than others, and so digest starches more effectively?

You are not even in the ballpark with this finch response. So clearly you have cut'n'pasted the "easy answers" those charlatans from the Discovery Institute offer, and then you carefully avoid dealing with the actual science that debunks them. We all know WANT to believe they are right, so badly, that your brain is forced to shut down when logic shows they are F.O.S, and virtually every trained biologist in the world laughs at their nonsense.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111211 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
My gosh your stupid all i was saying is that i have an open opinion and can tell when somethings bs
Actually its becoming clear that you cannot tell when something is bs. All you can do is repeat arguments you hope are true and run away from the responses that show they are not.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111212 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an open opinion but i know enough to tell that theres alot of holes in the evolutionary theory so i choose not to believe it because its bs
The "holes" you claim have been answered. Therefore if you really had the "open opinion" you claim, you would either provide more arguments or you would accept that perhaps you were mistaken in the first place. But we all know you won't do that. Evolution is not "bs" to you because its full of holes, its "bs" to you simply because you think it threatens your religious convictions. At least you could be honest with yourself.

Say to yourself, I dare you "I cannot afford to consider that evolution might be true because if its true then some of the Bible is wrong therefore other parts of the Bible might be wrong too therefore the whole promise of heaven might not be true and I cannot deal with that possibility".

That would be a refreshing change from all these phony aguments.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111213 Apr 14, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
Adolph Hitler has written that the Aryan (German) race would be the leader in all human progress. To accomplish that goal, all “lower races” should either be enslaved or eliminated. The theory of evolution and its “survival of the fittest” philosophy had taken root in Hitler’s warped mind.
Yes, a warped version of evolution. Along with a warped view of Christianity, in that Hitler believed along with Luther, that Jews were a "pit of poisonous vipers" etc etc. and anti-semitism has a long and infamous history in Europe for 2000 years.

In other words, Hitler warped everything to suit himself.

Christians down in South Africa, long before Hitler, also believed themselves to be the chosen race and blacks were inferior and bore "the mark of Cain". That was after Christians and Muslims around the world had ruthlessly slaughtered "heathen savages", all long before Darwin or evolution were thought of. Spartans were highly racist 700 years before Christ, and not only that, practiced eugenics and infanticide on their own population to keep it "superior".

So...trying to pretend that racism is a result of evolution is absurd. But of course, you guys will try anything to discredit science, when it threatens your religious convictions.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111214 Apr 14, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
Darwin was a hard core Racist and Sexist which is why Heathens, Atheists, KKK, Nazis, abortionists and slave owners latch on to the belief system:
"The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shown by man's attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than can woman—whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands. If two lists were made of the most eminent men and women in poetry, painting, sculpture, music (inclusive both of composition and performance), history, science, and philosophy, with half-a-dozen names under each subject, the two lists would not bear comparison. We may also infer, from the law of the deviation from averages, so well illustrated by Mr. Galton, in his work on 'Hereditary Genius,' that if men are capable of a decided pre-eminence over women in many subjects, the average of mental power in man must be above that of woman."
-Charles Darwin, The Descent of M
Virtually everyone in 1850 was what we would today call a "hard core racist and sexist".\

Here is Abraham Lincoln:

Fourth debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois on September 18, 1858 :

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the White and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurers of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, not to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on equal terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race..."

That was written 2 years BEFORE Darwin published Origin of the Species, by the way.

Anyway, nobody in SCIENCE cares what the personal views Darwin or Newton or Einstein etc were. All that matters is whether the theory they offered stood up to empirical and logical scrutiny.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111215 Apr 14, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
Please be honest, I have a question for you.
Do you think Black-African People had ancestors who were apes or monkeys?
We all did. And, just to be perfectly clear, we all did at the same time. The split into modern racial groups is recent and in evolutionary terms trivial, most of it resulting from the migration of humans out of Africa during only the last 70,000 years. The split of pre-human hominids from a common ape ancestor is understood to have occurred around 7,000,000 years ago - a hundred times longer, more or less.

So no, you do not get to use this loaded question to make innuendoes of racism against biologists.
PeeNutz

Ashburn, VA

#111216 Apr 14, 2014
no one can prove either, so this is a useless argument.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#111217 Apr 14, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
Adolph Hitler has written that the Aryan (German) race would be the leader in all human progress. To accomplish that goal, all “lower races” should either be enslaved or eliminated. The theory of evolution and its “survival of the fittest” philosophy had taken root in Hitler’s warped mind.
1. Books on Evolution were actually on the banned/burn list for the Nazis, so it is highly unlikely that Hitler was using Darwin as the basis for Aryan superiority while simultaneously having his books burned.

2. There is nothing in the Theory of Evolution that supports Aryan superiority, white supremacy or eugenics as philosophies.

3. The phrase Survival of the Fittest was an oversimplified way to explain Natural Selection. It never meant kill the lower races or anything remotely similar.

4. Evolution, like any scientific theory, does not promote political, philosophical or economic ideas. It is merely an explanation for what is seen in nature. Nothing more.

5. Even if the Nazis, through some kind of massive misunderstanding of the theory, used Evolution as support for their ideology, that has no bearing on whether or not the Theory of Evolution is accurate.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#111218 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an open opinion but i know enough to tell that theres alot of holes in the evolutionary theory so i choose not to believe it because its bs
So why do so many scientists support it? Are they part of some massive conspiracy?

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#111219 Apr 14, 2014
PeeNutz wrote:
no one can prove either, so this is a useless argument.
No scientific theory is ever proven, so not sure what your point is.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#111220 Apr 14, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
You've hardly paid any attention to what I've actually stated and I'm over the repetition. Your sexist vulgarity and abusive demeanor is uncalled for. If it will assuage your hurts for me to cop out and admit defeat then fine, men are swine, women are saints, France owns almost half of the English language and Germany owns the rest. Happy?
Say what? You began the abusive sexism, you don’t like the bounce then tough. Time you grew a set and manned up.

As for the rest of your ignorant ranting, dream on if such buckisms are what excite you, they make not the slightest difference to fact but hey, there ya go…

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#111221 Apr 14, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Christine, you have to understand that I have a warped sense of humor, and meant nothing other than to make light of one of your comments. Apologies for leading you to believe that I was targeting you, or that I am sexist. I wasn't, and I'm not. My wife and I are both working professionals and rarely encounter each other at home - if I asked her to "fetch" me a beer, I'd get nothing but sarcastic laughter in return. I could never be that kind of guy.
In fact I respect your persistence. If I WERE to speak my mind, I would say there's a difference between kicking a dead horse, and raising one with a crane to try to make it walk again. Let the language thing go. I agree with your points, and think we can all agree - English came from England. Lets close that book.
I have read some of you posts in the past and I realise you “humour”, hence the “fairly” light tone of my post, apology accepted. But you should be aware that what can be humour to one is a red rag to a bull to someone else.

I also realise that Charlie will never change his mind, his opinion is set and can never be changed by facts. I have twice in the past dropped out of the conversation on the “origination” of the English language and twice, Charles has jumped in again with his idiocy and racism, yes racism, to goad me in to continuing. You will notice that the moment he got ChromiuMan and myself arguing he dropped out for a little Charlie chuckle, as is his way.

As for ChromiuMan, well he is a sexist prig with some bright ideas, his error was verbally abusing me and then continuing the abuse after being advised that I would not bow down to his manhood. Contrary to his ignorant accusations I am not a feminist by any means but I do not take any sort of abuse from industry/military leaders and heads of state so there is nothing down for some anonymous nobody. It’s who I am and his egotestical (correct spelling) chauvinism and deliberate ignorance will make no difference to that.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#111222 Apr 14, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll disagree with you on two points. First, the fact that the bible is incorrect does not mean it's a lie. Lying is a deliberate action to obscure the truth. Simply being wrong does not constitute a falsehood.
Secondly, you CAN believe in the message of the bible as well as evolution. It is only when the holier-than-thou (you know, the types that dictate who is and who is not a Christian) insist on a literal interpretation that we have a problem.
If you believe in a creator then you must accept the evidence that he left us in the form of the universe. If you deny the evidence present in the universe then you are denying your creator. What is written in a old book of unknown origin aside.
There are several occasions throughout history when church authorities have deliberately obscured the truth. Catholic Emperor Theodosius ordered a purge of all public records that contradicted the New Testament's version of jesus' life including the burning of the library of Alexandria in 390. A papal edict in 1554 ordered the destruction of all references from Jewish texts deemed offensive and blasphemous to christians, christians had the bigger weapons so books like the Talmud no longer faithfully copy the original texts.

The majority of christianity, i.e. the catholic faith are taught that evolution is compatible with christianity, backed by no less than three separate popes. For various reasons there are many of the 40,000 different christian sects who agree. As you say, it’s the holier-than-thou,(I am not usually that polite) who have the problem.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#111223 Apr 14, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
Adolph Hitler has written that the Aryan (German) race would be the leader in all human progress. To accomplish that goal, all “lower races” should either be enslaved or eliminated. The theory of evolution and its “survival of the fittest” philosophy had taken root in Hitler’s warped mind.
Let's just pretend this was true (it isn't, since he was a Bible-believing Christian who was more interested in eugenics, not evolution) it would still have no bearing on the validity of evolution. Hitler was fond of the theory of gravity too. So well done for being stupid enough to invoke Godwin's law.

There are no "lower races" in evolution. All this shows your education on the subject is at the very least 100 years out of date.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#111224 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Creationists believe in natural selection but natural selection isnt creating new info for an animal and i dont care if some of its copy and pasted i know what it all means and im willing to stand by it you know my step dad was a teacher so i already have a pretty clear idea of what is an isnt able to be backed up just like your evolutional theory
Sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea in the least. And whatever your step-daddy's been teaching ya, it ain't evolution.

We backed up evolution without breaking sweat for you a month ago. Of course we've been doing that on here for years long before you even turned up.

We're still waiting for just ONE of you fundies to turn up and actually refute the subject.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#111225 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
My gosh your stupid all i was saying is that i have an open opinion and can tell when somethings bs
Evidently not
Nick wrote:
And font reply by telling me im oh soo stupid because i cant see that evolution is real it clearly isnt its full of holes
Did I call you stupid?

BTW, try making sense with your next sentence.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#111226 Apr 14, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
And scientists, and engineers...
And that too
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#111227 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
Its not wrong and many parts of the bible that would br contridicted by evolution tie into or are mentioned as fact in other parts of the bible
If science contradicts the Bible then the Bible is wrong.
Nick wrote:
God put us here because he loves us and no ome knows there purpose until they come to a point in their life where its clear
So in other words you don't have a clue. We can, and have backed up evolution. Can you do the same for religious beliefs? So far, no.
Nick wrote:
The bible doesn't say the earth is flat
You're lying. Lying is a sin in your religion. I GAVE you the passages from the Bible which state the shape of the Earth.

So you keep avoiding my questions:

Is the Bible LITERALLY true word for word all the way through? Or does it ever use parables, allegory or metaphor? The more you keep dodging this question you know the more you have to lie.
Nick wrote:
Thats not true every answer isnt "God did it" but i believe god put us here and that he created everything
So the answer IS Goddidit.
Nick wrote:
The bible, the complexity of the world around us, miracles, things in the bible that have all been proven
Wrong. All life evolved. The Bible has SOME bits which match with history and some which don't. But evidence doesn't matter to the Bible because if any time evidence conflicts you can just ignore it because God can fix it with magic.
Nick wrote:
Countless things in the bible are backed up by historical evidence, some things are far to complex to have gradually just evolved over millions of years, and look at things that you thought never could happen but they did or a time when something amazing or next to impossible happened
So you're saying that evolution is impossible but your beliefs are not impossible because of miracles from Godmagic. Do you not see your hypocrisy there?

Notice how WE can back ourselves up and you can't, because you have to rely on Godmagic.
Libertarian

UK

#111228 Apr 14, 2014
yes and that something was chemical reactions creating protein chains leading onto life.

the ignorance in here is shocking.
How the hell can a supposedly modern western country have such a high proportion of ignorant people who prefer Goddidit to actual science?

I grew up as a believer and have since learnt about actual facts rather than myths and legends, personal interpretations and believing something because it brings comfort not because its actually true or anything.

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