Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 216947 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Nick

Canada

#111307 Apr 14, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, good. Now we're getting somewhere. So we now both agree that it's MORE information.
<quoted text>
Good point. It's a repeat of the same information. But it's STILL MORE.
So then what happens? Well Animal B carries that extra information for the rest of its life. If that extra information is unhelpful then it may end up decreasing its chances to reproduce. Or it may be helpful and increase its chances to reproduce. Or it might be just harmless baggage, kinda like the amoeba having a ridiculous amount of DNA for a single-celled organism.
But anyway, Animal B has more information. So let's say it survives and has offspring. Just like everyone else, that offspring is born with a whole bunch of mutations. Just like you and me. Not a lot, 150 ain't much when compared to 3 billion. Now remember what can happen when a mutation occurs:
1 - Lose DNA.
2 - Change DNA
3 - Add DNA.
Any and all of these three possibilities can happen. And since we're all born with over a hundred mutations, it's likely that all three will happen at various points across our genetic makeup.
Changes add up with each generation that are born. Now if a family line just so happens to end up with lots more bad mutations than good, they MIGHT go extinct. If the mutations tend to be more neutral or balance each other out, the family line will continue with no real problems or benefits either. But if they happen to end up with lots of beneficial mutations then they could end up breeding like rabbits. And therefore more of those successful mutations will be passed on.
Ok but the letters themselves still dont change
Nick

Canada

#111308 Apr 14, 2014
We believe in natural selection and mutations we don't however believe that an animal one day just gets brand new genetic information slowly over time then after much reproduction and changes turns into something different until we get a new species or animal
Organism and such don't gain new generic info the loose some through mutation pr they get more of the same info not brand new different information
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111309 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
@thedude
What you have is a belief just like creationism is a belief
Nope. Wanna know how I know?

Science works.
Nick wrote:
and you obviously have no idea what a christian is its not just believing in God and being kind to thy fellow man and so on theres so much more to it
So you say. But you're not an expert in theology either. Not that it matters though, since theological opinions are STILL irrelevant to science.(shrug)
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111310 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
But what evidence do you have have that is 100% flawless and backed up by fact. None.
I already explained to you days ago. NOTHING in science is 100% flawless. Nothing can BE science and be 100% flawless. Science NEEDS an error bar in order to make scientific predictions.

But (apart from all the rest of the evidence we've presented which you STILL haven't presented an argument against yet) I can give you this:

SIFTER. That's Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships. Capable of predicting protein function to an accuracy of 96%. You got anything that can give a higher mark?
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111311 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok but the letters themselves still dont change
Um, yes they do. That's what mutations do. That's what they nearly always do. In fact it's because the letters change that creationists object to mutations being helpful in any way. And that's when they ignore natural selection.

You're really not understanding my posts at all, are you?
Mike Williams

Springfield, TN

#111312 Apr 14, 2014
Simply put evolution is out. Why are none of you speaking of the .2 percent of our DNA that does not match anything on earth. The only living organism on earth with this claim.
We also know now that sometime in the last 5000 years. Humans mated with an unidentified human race. Evolution like Einsteins theory of space and time is wrong. all equations on black holes lead to the same answer. Infinity. This is no way correct if his theory is true.

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#111313 Apr 14, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG, are you STILL demonstrating your ignorance of language.
The Chinese own English.
And a high percentage of Germans speak Mandarin...
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111314 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
We believe in natural selection and mutations
No you don't. Creationists don't believe natural selection exists. They believe mutations are always bad and always reduce genetic information. Scientific observations have shown them to be wrong.
Nick wrote:
we don't however believe that an animal one day just gets brand new genetic information slowly over time then after much reproduction and changes turns into something different until we get a new species or animal
Then you don't believe in horses and donkeys. But they exist whether you believe in them or not.
Nick wrote:
Organism and such don't gain new generic info
Yes, they do. A mutation can take a chunk of DNA away, or it can just change a chunk that's already there, or it can add a chunk. If it adds a chunk then that's new genetic material. Which is new information by definition.
Nick wrote:
the loose some through mutation pr they get more of the same info not brand new different information
Wrong. You yourself already contain brand new genetic information that is not shared by either of your parents.

Again, here's the info for gene duplication (Katy is a working biologist by the way), which we've already agreed is new material.

http://www.topix.com/forum/tech/TCTDUMIJ55H2B...

And once you have duplicated material, that info can later change into something new via natural mutation.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#111315 Apr 14, 2014
Mike Williams wrote:
Simply put evolution is out. Why are none of you speaking of the .2 percent of our DNA that does not match anything on earth. The only living organism on earth with this claim.
WRONG.

ALL life on Earth has a unique genome. That means they all have DNA which other organisms don't. You uh, apparently didn't realise that when we share 98% of our DNA with chimps that they share 98% of their DNA with us, did you.
Mike Williams wrote:
We also know now that sometime in the last 5000 years. Humans mated with an unidentified human race. Evolution like Einsteins theory of space and time is wrong. all equations on black holes lead to the same answer. Infinity. This is no way correct if his theory is true.
Okay, now you're making Nick's Flinstones theory sound almost credible.

Still don't care about your darn aliens.

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#111316 Apr 14, 2014
Minerals Insects Mammal and Animal...

Wonder why the Domesticated Cow is still on land...
Maybe one of these the Cows will all run to the Ocean and down themselves...
Nick

Canada

#111317 Apr 14, 2014
@thedude
Im not saying they don't gain new info I'm just saying that this is the same info not completely new/different info and
We do believe i natural selection
Nick

Canada

#111318 Apr 14, 2014
@thedude

Who are you to say we don't believe in natural selection, are you a creationist? No. We do believe in natural selection

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#111319 Apr 14, 2014
Of phenomena are?

Witness on how to kill a brain and how Spirit will take over one's own in peeling back the layer one by one of ye old slammer bang pow and cut and tore... when Science becomes a dying breed...
They can shove their pills their medicine shed skin and all their Formulas to number myth in Angular... Earth's rotation ...
Barometer Meteor..and OR OR OR OR????

Man and without an outer existence to what someone has been...And whoso become?

What becomes you???

Interests in Special...

Oh well...I think it will come to be made Knowledge that most Science is a way of Perversion...

the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended.
Perversion is a type of human behavior that deviates from that which is understood to be orthodox or normal. Although the term perversion can refer to a variety ...

I have learned that never to speak of Anger for all those that are pissed off...

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#111320 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
We believe in natural selection and mutations we don't however believe that an animal one day just gets brand new genetic information slowly over time then after much reproduction and changes turns into something different until we get a new species or animal
Organism and such don't gain new generic info the loose some through mutation pr they get more of the same info not brand new different information
Do you realize the contradictions in the statements you have made. You can't have it both ways. It is either one day or gradually over time.

Your assertion is not supported by the evidence. I have already provided you with organisms including humans that have gained new genetic information and new function as a result. In the case lactose tolerance, it has been determined that not only is it the result of new information, but for different populations it is different new information. Different mutations lead to the same result. In the case of notothenioid fish, a digestive enzyme has been co-opted by evolution to take on the function of an antifreeze protein. This is new information.

You really should proof your posts before sending. It is bloody awful to read and comes off as lazy and sloppy.

What you choose not to believe is based on your belief and not on the facts.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#111321 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
@thedude
Im not saying they don't gain new info I'm just saying that this is the same info not completely new/different info and
We do believe i natural selection
You just said you didn't believe they gain new information. Which is it? What would be the point of believing in natural selection. According to you it means nothing.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#111322 Apr 14, 2014
Mike Williams wrote:
Simply put evolution is out. Why are none of you speaking of the .2 percent of our DNA that does not match anything on earth. The only living organism on earth with this claim.
We also know now that sometime in the last 5000 years. Humans mated with an unidentified human race. Evolution like Einsteins theory of space and time is wrong. all equations on black holes lead to the same answer. Infinity. This is no way correct if his theory is true.
Out what? Out of your ability to understand?

Thanks for your thoughts on this. It is enlightening to see that TN is ready to make the big move into the 17th Century. Don't believe those fellows in KY about that jelly they are selling.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#111323 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
You read the bible you do research online you ask creationists about it go to a bookstore and find a book that discusses faith
Are there other mechanisms of creation I am not aware of? Are creationists do laboratory and field work on the conditions presumed to have occurred at creation. What do they do with negative results?

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#111324 Apr 14, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Bit you dont have to denounce all science it can be one in the same with creation bit evolution is a theory within science and not everyone creationists or not have to believe it
You really are confused about the difference between science and religious belief. You view them as the same thing. They are not. The theory of evolution is as well supported a theory as exists in science. You can continue to deny it, but wont change the validity of the science.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111325 Apr 15, 2014
Nick wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you guys so strong with your belief isn't that the same as me believing something different these are just two opinions i believe i am right and this forum is meant for debating not to see who's top dog its for discussing both of our opinions like civilized peoples and not for shouting out angry hate comments to put yourself above one another i admit ive had my part in that too but come on guys
I was merely pointing out that if you really had the open mind you CLAIMED to have, then when your objections to evolution were debunked, you would change your mind. But of course we do NOT expect that.

Its not about top dog. Its about whether you accept empirical evidence and logic as the arbiters of truth or whether you think sacred ancient scripture is more reliable even if the physical evidence is against that.

Fine, choose your way of looking at the world. I would be the first to defend your right to do that. But don't try to PRETEND that your way is really based on science and logic, because its simply not. At least admit it.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#111327 Apr 15, 2014
Nick wrote:
@thedude
Im not saying they don't gain new info I'm just saying that this is the same info not completely new/different info and
We do believe i natural selection
Yes, when a gene duplicates, its starts out as the "same info", but when one of the duplicates mutates its now new info. Whole families of proteins have been shown to stem from a few basic types. That is HOW evolution works.

As I showed with the "scone recipe" analogy, even the same info repeated can lead to a different result.

But when there is a mutation in a duplicate, we definitely get new information no matter how you wish to define that word.

Nobody in evolution required entirely new genes to develop out of thin air to create say a wing. That is known as a "straw man argument", where you argue against something that was never claimed or required in the first place.

The "original genes" from which all the rest came were created billions of years ago and would have been very inefficient and very random. That was all that was required. Did you know that up to 10% of randomly sequenced RNA shows some kind of catalytic activity? That is all evolution needs to get started. With random variation and natural selection DRIVING efficiency upward from there in a way analogous to the "evolving coin" example I gave you.

See, as a "faith based closed minded" adversary that you are, even though you claim you are not, I know already that you will not consider this information any more carefully than you considered my evolving coin toss post or the scone recipe post. These made specific points that your responses in no way considered or argued. And you know it.

You merely look for something, ANYTHING, to disagree with so that you can post off some response that does not address the issues, and then a day or a week from now you will repeat the same irrelevant line that "evolution cannot provide new information" even though we have debunked that claim.

When you can no longer do that, you will accuse your opponents of intellectual elitism. That is because even though you have no argument, you just damned well refuse to agree in spite of your "open mind", and then you will move to persecution claims, then you will charge scientists with a secular conspiracy against religion.

We have seen it all before.

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