Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 221486 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#110082 Mar 19, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No. The seed is less complex that the grown plant. Then, because of the effects of the sun (giving energy), the complexity rises until the plant ages enough that the energy cannot be used effectively, and then it decays. ALL of this is consistent with the second law, but the seed is definitely less complex than the grown plant.
Then how did the plant grow up?
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#110083 Mar 19, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>Yeah, I'm talkin about something better than this world. Jesus is the way the truth and the life everlasting and he is the prince of peace, but the truth does not always bring peace to the world we live in now.
Still not caring Mikey

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#110084 Mar 19, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>The devil is a liar and it's just a matter of time for him to be shown so. I don't kid about these matters. I am here to have a little conversation, but when it comes to my religion I am serious.
You been talking to the devil? Can you give me her phone number, I've been trying to talk to her but she changed her damn number.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#110085 Mar 19, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>Then are you claiming low to high and then back to low is how it is?
I am saying that you don't understand the basic concepts.

Entropy is only very generally a measure of randomness. i tis more accurately a measure of the usable energy of a system. The second law says that entropy will always increase in an isolated system. It is quite possible, even common, for the degree of order in a system to go up *and* the entropy to also go up.

A very specific example is given by looking at a mixture of oil and water. The mixture is more 'random', but it will spontaneously change into the more 'ordered' system where the oil and water are separated. Furthermore, this is actually driven by entropy effects.

But, for non-isolated systems (like the Earth), the possibilities are much broader. In particular, if energy is put into the system (like the energy from the sun), it is quite possible for their to be parts of the system where entropy decreases, sometimes dramatically.

In the specific case of evolution, the very slight increase of 'order' in living things is offset by a very large amount of heat (disorder) produced as waste. The total leaves an total increase of entropy.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#110086 Mar 19, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Then how did the plant grow up?
A fairly large input of energy and a large release of heat and waste gas. The second law allows for increased complexity if it is balanced off by corresponding increases of disorder (usually in the form of heat, but expanding gas also works).

Again, you are misunderstanding the basics of the second law. Probably that is because you are only reading popular accounts or even creationist accounts. I would suggest learning some actual physics and seeing what is really going on. You will find out that the popular accounts leave a LOT out. To some extent, they have to. But probably not as much as they do.

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#110087 Mar 19, 2014
Si on the Political Forum...

Immigrant Re-form?

Like old News and to see what it could be like sitting in front of the Television and receive,,,*INFORMATIVE PROGRESSIVE in what I just said while I had a smoke...*

Deep and middle and the up...
Said desire keep a thought where my thought went despair would be the bottom to what lies in-between for me enduring...so to what is now and what was a then?

We had a conversation...

I said a few things too...

Never however in my own right it is for me NOT to tell you...

As I told it so???

To who wants whom in out? Why to what she is not to connect with so we sway into something more out and about...
To go exactly where to what they think I ought to do?

Is that to be lame less some must reamin/remain in that mode to an more up broaden in what in Their old view?

To what a Reason?

What she or I ....

In hear and what I need in to do....
I know what I like...

Still not wanting completely disisolation...

Was for me always to explore to be out an dabout about an explorium..or explorium...
Um die weld wald waelder Welt....

Mit does Geld in tasche und wenn das draussen lassen wurden?

Wenn das nicht hire...wer...wo?

Sprist Du so, auch?
Manchmal denk ich mir mehr glaube ich asl das was mann an der Tafel auf-schreiben kann...

Eine Tafe aus Weiss, sie ist nich gruen oder wschwarz...

Hire wie ich sie sehe, mein Hintergrund...

Meine Erde so wie sie es war...

Das Leben!!!.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#110089 Mar 19, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations.(Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.
So is your degree is micro or astro biology?
I think it's in fundiedenialbiology.

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#110090 Mar 19, 2014
With one click of a button...

SENT:

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Level 6

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#110091 Mar 19, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Is there any other?
; )
As long as he knew what I was thinking...

MAYBE????

Smart to Opinions how to place them well and on what...

Damns hope that made his day!!!
THE LONE WORKER

United States

#110092 Mar 20, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am saying that you don't understand the basic concepts.
Entropy is only very generally a measure of randomness. i tis more accurately a measure of the usable energy of a system. The second law says that entropy will always increase in an isolated system. It is quite possible, even common, for the degree of order in a system to go up *and* the entropy to also go up.
A very specific example is given by looking at a mixture of oil and water. The mixture is more 'random', but it will spontaneously change into the more 'ordered' system where the oil and water are separated. Furthermore, this is actually driven by entropy effects.
But, for non-isolated systems (like the Earth), the possibilities are much broader. In particular, if energy is put into the system (like the energy from the sun), it is quite possible for their to be parts of the system where entropy decreases, sometimes dramatically.
In the specific case of evolution, the very slight increase of 'order' in living things is offset by a very large amount of heat (disorder) produced as waste. The total leaves an total increase of entropy.
OK, this increase of entropy as you call it, is in reality a dis order or decrease in the way it was in the beginning. The beginning must have been an ordered arrangement which began at once. The Bible claims that the first event was light and Jesus said it began very very small and then branched out when he was explaining what this was likened too. This miracle happened by the power which was to create and all things came quickly at the command of the Creator. How far and how fast could the original light have traveled and what were it's limits? Man can not imagine this to have happened and so they make jokes about a magical poofing or popping into existence because of ignorance.
Unbelievable

Kansas City, MO

#110093 Mar 20, 2014
Ya just gotta love the fundies. First they say that science is evil. Now days, they're trying to use it to prove the existence of god. Their problem is however, that the more that science understands the universe, the more the case is made against there being one. Watching religion change it's beliefs throughout the years has been quite amusing to say the least.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#110094 Mar 20, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations.(Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.
And you are simply wrong on several points.

First, the argument was from the second law of thermodynamics. The form for that law is quite different in an open system than for an isolated system.

Second, the second law doesn't say what does happen, merely what cannot happen. It isn't actually a very tight constraint. In the case of the Earth, the energy from the sun is enough to make the second law say that large changes are allowed.

Third, whether the energy is 'directed' or not is irrelevant to the physics of the second law. There are many times when 'undirected' heat induces the chemical reactions that we want: cooking is a good example.

Fourth, in the particular case of abiogenesis, the radiation from the sun actually does induce exactly the types of reactions that are required for the development of life. Sometimes chemical bonds need to be broken in order for other ones to form. The radiation from the sun helps that process.

Fifth, even this has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is concerned with how species change over time, not how life got started. or cosmology.

Sixth, there are many types of mutations other than simple copy errors. Duplications, for example. These *do* increase information.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#110095 Mar 20, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>OK, this increase of entropy as you call it, is in reality a dis order or decrease in the way it was in the beginning.
No, like I said, entropy and disorder are NOT the same thing. They are somewhat related, but they differ in some very important cases. The second law deals with *entropy*, not disorder.
The beginning must have been an ordered arrangement which began at once.
Why? Supply the math and physics for this claim. The netropy must be lower in the past, I will readily agree with that. The notion of 'order' is vague enough to not be very useful.
The Bible claims that the first event was light and Jesus said it began very very small and then branched out when he was explaining what this was likened too. This miracle happened by the power which was to create and all things came quickly at the command of the Creator. How far and how fast could the original light have traveled and what were it's limits? Man can not imagine this to have happened and so they make jokes about a magical poofing or popping into existence because of ignorance.
I already know what your book of myths says. Reality says something different. The earth is much, much older than a mere 6000 years. There was no 'center' of creation from which everything was emitted. And we *do* see remnants of the energy released from the Big Bang. It is called the cosmic background radiation and is a wealth of information about the early universe. And the speed of light is about 186,000 miles per second.
THE LONE WORKER

United States

#110096 Mar 20, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, like I said, entropy and disorder are NOT the same thing. They are somewhat related, but they differ in some very important cases. The second law deals with *entropy*, not disorder.
<quoted text>
Why? Supply the math and physics for this claim. The netropy must be lower in the past, I will readily agree with that. The notion of 'order' is vague enough to not be very useful.
<quoted text>
I already know what your book of myths says. Reality says something different. The earth is much, much older than a mere 6000 years. There was no 'center' of creation from which everything was emitted. And we *do* see remnants of the energy released from the Big Bang. It is called the cosmic background radiation and is a wealth of information about the early universe. And the speed of light is about 186,000 miles per second.
Well then, you know what the Bible has always said. the Bible also speaks of patterns when God makes things, so if we were to somehow come to an understanding of how all nature works according to a pattern, then we may begin to understand all of nature more precisely. Light is a form which branches out in some instances just as Jesus taught when he likened the heavens and the earth to a tree. The Bible claims it happened at the Word of God and his Word is likened to a seed. This is what the Bible has always said and it has not changed.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#110097 Mar 20, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>Well then, you know what the Bible has always said. the Bible also speaks of patterns when God makes things, so if we were to somehow come to an understanding of how all nature works according to a pattern, then we may begin to understand all of nature more precisely. Light is a form which branches out in some instances just as Jesus taught when he likened the heavens and the earth to a tree. The Bible claims it happened at the Word of God and his Word is likened to a seed. This is what the Bible has always said and it has not changed.
So you criticized people for not knowing physics and you know none yourself. I really could not care less what your book of myths says if it differs from reality. Making an analogy of light to a tree is simply silly. even with 'branching out'(!!?!).
THE LONE WORKER

United States

#110098 Mar 20, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
So you criticized people for not knowing physics and you know none yourself. I really could not care less what your book of myths says if it differs from reality. Making an analogy of light to a tree is simply silly. even with 'branching out'(!!?!).
In the beginning what was the first thing that God said for there to be? The creation happened at once in my view. All the elements and matter were in an ordered state from the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth and it did not take billions of years for him to do it.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#110099 Mar 20, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations.(Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.
Photosynthesis.

Done.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#110100 Mar 20, 2014
THE LONE WORKER wrote:
<quoted text>In the beginning what was the first thing that God said for there to be? The creation happened at once in my view. All the elements and matter were in an ordered state from the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth and it did not take billions of years for him to do it.
Yeah, it did. No matter how or who started it.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#110101 Mar 20, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
A fairly large input of energy and a large release of heat and waste gas. The second law allows for increased complexity if it is balanced off by corresponding increases of disorder (usually in the form of heat, but expanding gas also works).
Again, you are misunderstanding the basics of the second law. Probably that is because you are only reading popular accounts or even creationist accounts. I would suggest learning some actual physics and seeing what is really going on. You will find out that the popular accounts leave a LOT out. To some extent, they have to. But probably not as much as they do.
Not that your input is unappreciated but my post was sarcasm for SevenTee's sake.

;-p
THE LONE WORKER

United States

#110102 Mar 20, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, it did. No matter how or who started it.
Your source book may change though, mine never will.

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