Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#108349 Jan 25, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>All these systems which are involved with life on earth have endogenous or built in self sustained adjusting capabilities. This is an intelligent set up.
There's no indication of a designer of nature,or that it was built in . It adapted to the conditions that were present, always has. Life just throws everything it can at survival, if some survive the species will flourish. If it does not , then it becomes extinct. The biosphere maybe somewhat self adjusting, but this is due to natural chemical reactions on Earth which at times become unfavorable for life, thus causing extinction. Any thoughts on Earths ability to self correct is
the Gaia hypothesis, and not due to design but rather the mutualism and symbiotic relationships within the microbiome of all the organisms of earth.
FREE SERVANT

United States

#108350 Jan 25, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
There's no indication of a designer of nature,or that it was built in . It adapted to the conditions that were present, always has. Life just throws everything it can at survival, if some survive the species will flourish. If it does not , then it becomes extinct. The biosphere maybe somewhat self adjusting, but this is due to natural chemical reactions on Earth which at times become unfavorable for life, thus causing extinction. Any thoughts on Earths ability to self correct is
the Gaia hypothesis, and not due to design but rather the mutualism and symbiotic relationships within the microbiome of all the organisms of earth.
It is the entrainable oscillation of about 24 hours in living things that must have been here from the beginning for life to make needed adjustments. An intelligent cause accomplished this.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#108351 Jan 25, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It is the entrainable oscillation of about 24 hours in living things that must have been here from the beginning for life to make needed adjustments. An intelligent cause accomplished this.
Nope it is the periods between light and dark, since most of life depends on the sun.
4.5 billion years ago a day was 6 hours, 3.5 billion 8 hour days skip to just before complex life
21.9 hours 620 million years ago, so 500 million years ago when life arose we had something like 22 hour days. This figure is ever so slightly changing , because the rotational speed is slowing down. Life has to adjust to this, and it does.

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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That's Just My Game

#108352 Jan 25, 2014
Post four: I am going to post his on several threads for I want the opinion of many. How would science describe this accident of where a child gets ran over at not only at mid body but also at neck level and then bounces up as if nothing ever happened. Give your 'scientific explanation" of how this happened.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#108353 Jan 25, 2014
replaytime wrote:
Post four: I am going to post his on several threads for I want the opinion of many. How would science describe this accident of where a child gets ran over at not only at mid body but also at neck level and then bounces up as if nothing ever happened. Give your 'scientific explanation" of how this happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =0pm0GQijBEoXX
Extremely lucky, it looks as if the wheel pushed his head under the car without running over it mostly.
But the snow has to be what saved him , it pushed his head into it rather than putting all the weight on him .
Had that happened 10 feet behind them in the road, it would have been much worse.

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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Since: Mar 13

That's Just My Game

#108354 Jan 25, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Extremely lucky, it looks as if the wheel pushed his head under the car without running over it mostly.
But the snow has to be what saved him , it pushed his head into it rather than putting all the weight on him .
Had that happened 10 feet behind them in the road, it would have been much worse.
So extremely lucky is your scientific explanation? Show that theory of extremely lucky if you have time.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#108355 Jan 25, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
So extremely lucky is your scientific explanation? Show that theory of extremely lucky if you have time.
Can't give you a scientific explanation from a low resolution video, nor can I examine the child's injuries , the car, snow depth , the actual terrain, or anything else required to make a scientific explanation.
Insufficient data , so you get my best guess.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108356 Jan 26, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope it is the periods between light and dark, since most of life depends on the sun.
4.5 billion years ago a day was 6 hours, 3.5 billion 8 hour days skip to just before complex life
21.9 hours 620 million years ago, so 500 million years ago when life arose we had something like 22 hour days. This figure is ever so slightly changing , because the rotational speed is slowing down. Life has to adjust to this, and it does.
And life CAN adjust because this change is so gradual. The exact 24-hour day was in 1820. More than 30 seconds have been added since.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108357 Jan 26, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>Timing takes intelligence to set. The entire earth system is self sustained and entrained to local environments and oscillations of living things are driven by a clock-like timing around a day. This type of set up had to have had an intelligent designer. Life is reproduced by systems which are patterned to produce things and do work through repetition with acute rationality. Every system produces purposeful results.
The system in which the Earth is in currently came about over billions of years of evolution. No one 'set up' the system to sustain life, life evolved and conformed to this system. It would have done the same thing regardless of how much sunlight, or how much rain there was on any given day. If we lived in an environment where there was only 1 hour of sunlight per day, our bodies would have formed to survive in such an environment. This is what evolution is all about.
FREE SERVANT

United States

#108359 Jan 26, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
The system in which the Earth is in currently came about over billions of years of evolution. No one 'set up' the system to sustain life, life evolved and conformed to this system. It would have done the same thing regardless of how much sunlight, or how much rain there was on any given day. If we lived in an environment where there was only 1 hour of sunlight per day, our bodies would have formed to survive in such an environment. This is what evolution is all about.
I see you are not arguing with the basic assertion of SCPID theory in that systems will cycle following patterns and oscillation is carried about in them, it is the intelligent design claim that you have a problem with, is this correct?

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108360 Jan 26, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>I see you are not arguing with the basic assertion of SCPID theory in that systems will cycle following patterns and oscillation is carried about in them, it is the intelligent design claim that you have a problem with, is this correct?
I have no issue with cycles, of course our environment is cyclical. I do have issues accepting that our planet was hand-sculpted, or that these cycles were built by an unknown higher force, comparable to someone building and tuning a clock.
FREE SERVANT

United States

#108361 Jan 26, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no issue with cycles, of course our environment is cyclical. I do have issues accepting that our planet was hand-sculpted, or that these cycles were built by an unknown higher force, comparable to someone building and tuning a clock.
Well, Mr Brazil; finally we have come to a common ground to a certain extent. Your input means a lot to me here, thank you for that. I argue that timing produces the most effective results and this is a sound approach for the problems in nature and consideration and thought showing judgement must have been involved from the start of these systems.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#108362 Jan 26, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
So extremely lucky is your scientific explanation? Show that theory of extremely lucky if you have time.
the vehicle was bouncing.....

if it was a real video at all.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108363 Jan 26, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>Well, Mr Brazil; finally we have come to a common ground to a certain extent. Your input means a lot to me here, thank you for that. I argue that timing produces the most effective results and this is a sound approach for the problems in nature and consideration and thought showing judgement must have been involved from the start of these systems.
Thanks for the kind words, but I am not implying that 'judgment' could not have been involved in the forming of life. Judgment would suggest that life came about by a Creator, which stems back to the root of this topic. Although I will not say there is no Creator, I will state that I am a firm believer that life came to be through evolution.
MISSISSIPPI

Pass Christian, MS

#108364 Jan 26, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the kind words, but I am not implying that 'judgment' could not have been involved in the forming of life. Judgment would suggest that life came about by a Creator, which stems back to the root of this topic. Although I will not say there is no Creator, I will state that I am a firm believer that life came to be through evolution.
Close but don't light the cigar.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108366 Jan 26, 2014
MISSISSIPPI wrote:
<quoted text>Close but don't light the cigar.
I don't smoke.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#108367 Jan 26, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>Life did not just begin as simple as a few chemicals and then become more complex. Natural systems reproduced life on earth as we know it now. All kinds of living things follow patterns of former sorts of their kind and they came about by patterned instructions as to how they would unfold. The earth was reseeded after a great cataclysmic breaking up of the continental plates, according to one hypothesis.
5140

We had several breakups.
The point is that we start life as we have been provided proof of it's existence, and (re)production from there
If we find life in closed of water that is at least 2,8 billion years old and quite simple, using a different foodsource and not being carbon/oxygen/light based, the next challenge is to figure out how this formed, but also how it connects to all the rest.
Or whether is was just a residue of at least two emergent evolutions.
Or an adaptation form an organism that set out differently.
Some processes in animals are to do with genes of f.i. purpur bacteria becoming part of our genetic make up.

Reseeding is a strange one.
(where did they keep the seed )

Another interesting paper, about pseudogenes:
http://longlab.uchicago.edu/sites/default/fil...

““You must not lose faith ”

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#108368 Jan 26, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
A theory such as SCPID will remain strong in the face of intimidation by great numbers of so-called scientist when it's prediction about system cycling can not be proven false. As long as this simple concept remains true, the theory stands. The basic concept will continue to be useful until someone proves that natural systems somewhere do not cycle or follow a circuit.
Chemistry as simply causality is a fine start.
Take little bubles in stone or mud before cellwalls even evolve and some exchange of elements is set in motion. Creating stasis and a stable ongoing cycle thus.
Thermal vent wet Montmorillion soil (see wiki on abiogenesis (Carpentras-soil) is also good with lipids to form a cell wall.

Would be nice to find the actual paper on it. As well as on the simples chemical cycle probable given short days a.s.o. thus the environment then.

In the link above about pseudogenes it talks also about the theory of nature as tinkerer. NOTE not an intelligent engineer. Nature tinkers, it does not get it right in one go.

A reposting:
4 would be fullblown bio-chemistry cycling.

Fortunately, an alternative group of theories that can employ these materials has existed for decades. The theories employ a thermodynamic rather than a genetic definition of life, under a scheme put forth by Carl Sagan in the Encyclopedia Britannica: A localized region which increases in order (decreases in entropy) through cycles driven by an energy flow would be considered alive. This small-molecule approach is rooted in the ideas of the Soviet biologist Alexander Oparin, and current notable spokesmen include de Duve, Freeman Dyson of the Institute for Advanced Study, Stuart Kauffman of the Santa Fe Institute, Doron Lancet of the Weizmann Institute, Harold Morowitz of George Mason University and the independent researcher Gnter Wchtershuser. I estimate that about a third of the chemists involved in the study of the origin of life subscribe to theories based on this idea. Origin-of-life proposals of this type differ in specific details; here I will try to list five common requirements (and add some ideas of my own).
(1) A boundary is needed to separate life from non-life
(2) An energy source is needed to drive the organization process.
(3) A coupling mechanism must link the release of energy to the organization process that produces and sustains life.
(4) A chemical network must be formed, to permit adaptation and evolution.
Here enters the cycle.
(5) The network must grow and reproduce.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-s ...

““You must not lose faith ”

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#108369 Jan 26, 2014
The small molecule approach to the origin of life makes several demands upon nature (a compartment, an external energy supply, a driver reaction coupled to that supply, and the existence of a chemical network that contains that reaction). These requirements are general in nature, however, and are immensely more probable than the elaborate multi-step pathways needed to form a molecule that can function as a replicator.

Over the years, many theoretical papers have advanced particular metabolism first schemes, but relatively little experimental work has been presented in support of them. In those cases where experiments have been published, they have usually served to demonstrate the plausibility of individual steps in a proposed cycle. The greatest amount of new data has perhaps come from Gnter Wchtershuser and his colleagues at the Technische Universitt Mnchen. They have demonstrated portions of a cycle involving the combination and separation of amino acids, in the presence of metal sulfide catalysts. The energetic driving force for the transformations is supplied by the oxidation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide. They have not yet demonstrated the operation of a complete cycle or its ability to sustain itself and undergo further evolution. A "smoking gun" experiment displaying those three features is needed to establish the validity of the small molecule approach.

That's the difference between science and pseudoscience: science requires experimental validity. Creationists have harped for years on the low probability of life's spontaneous emergence in the universe. Meanwhile, scientists have been fashioning, testing, junking, redeveloping, and once again fashioning more and more plausible scenarios, not content to rest in comfortable ignorance.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#108370 Jan 27, 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montmorillonite

Montmorillonite is also known to cause micelles (lipid spheres) to assemble together into vesicles. These are structures that resemble cell membranes on many cells. It can also help nucleotides to assemble into RNA which will end up inside the vesicles. It has been demonstrated that this could have generated highly complex RNA polymers that could reproduce the RNA trapped within the vesicles.[8] This process may have led to the origin of life on Earth.[9]

Similar to many other clays, montmorillonite swells with the addition of water. However, some montmorillonites expand considerably more than other clays due to water penetrating the interlayer molecular spaces and concomitant adsorption. The amount of expansion is due largely to the type of exchangeable cation contained in the sample. The presence of sodium as the predominant exchangeable cation can result in the clay swelling to several times its original volume. Hence, sodium montmorillonite has come to be used as the major constituent in non-explosive agents for splitting rock in natural stone quarries in order to limit the amount of waste, or for the demolition of concrete structures where the use of explosive charges is unacceptable.

Use in medicine and pharmacology[edit]

Montmorillonite is effective as an adsorptive of heavy metals.[6]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4307
Clay's matchmaking could have sparked life
19:00 23 October 2003 by Philip Cohen

The study of montmorillonite clay, by Martin Hanczyc, Shelly Fujikawa and Jack Szostak at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, revealed it can sharply accelerate the formation of membranous fluid-filled sacs.

These vesicles also grow and undergo a simple form of division, giving them the properties of primitive cells. Previous work has shown that the same simple mineral can help assemble the genetic material RNA from simpler chemicals. "Interestingly, the clay also gets internalised in the vesicles," says Leslie Orgel, an origin of life expert at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences in San Diego, California. "So this work is quite nice in that it finds a connection between the mechanism that creates RNA and encloses it in a membrane."

Szostak wondered whether montmorillonite could also help the assembly of vesicles from simple fatty acid precursors. He remembers the day his colleagues Hanczyc and Fujikawa ran into his office to show him their first results: the clay caused a 100-fold acceleration of vesicle formation.

"It was pretty amazing," he says. Once formed, the vesicles often incorporated bit of clay and were able to grow by absorbing more fatty acid subunits.

His team also showed the clay could hold RNA and form vesicles at the same time. Fluorescently-labelled RNA attached to the clay ended up assembled into vesicles after the reaction. And the researchers were able to get these "protocells" to divide by forcing them through small holes. This caused them to split into smaller vesicles, with minimal loss of their contents.

Szostak admits that in a natural setting the vesicles would rarely be forced to divide in this way. So now his group is searching for different mixtures of membrane-forming molecules that might divide spontaneously when they reach a certain size.

Journal reference: Science (vol 302, p 618 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
cyano bacteria

I see... they expanded the article. lol
Gunther Wchterhuser is also mentioned.

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